[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Fangbanger]

Can an orbital assault list be viable for raven guard?

 

I mean i know we get pods with decap, and by podding in we loose infiltrate but Maun can bring alot to a orbital list with his vox.

 

This also frees us up some more heavy slots (think double raptor & leviathan or double levi & raptor)

 

Mor Deythan in pods are cheaper than suport squads with better rules too.

 

Playing around at 3000pts you can have Maun in a vet squad, the 2 tacs tax, 3 x 8 man Mor Deythan, kraken lightning, 2 x levis and a raptor with a few points left over for another cheap pod unit giving a total of 9, 5 coming down turn 1

 

I think i will most likely stick with decap for all the Raven Rules but wondered if anyone has gone the fully orbital way?

Edited November 27, 2016 by Fangbanger

[Gyem]

But... You won't have Maun T1 to give counter attack / no scatter to everything that pod T1?

[Fangbanger]

This is of course correct but it would work for the beta strike turn 2 and the reserve re-rolls but yes, it does seem a lot is lost rather than going for decap

[Nusquam]

I think Orbital has a place against gunline heavy armies that like augery scanners and to shake things up. If you're always playing Decap and then suddenly switch to orbital you're going to catch your opponent off guard. You won't be using infiltrate, sure, but Mauns rules are excellent for making sure you have everything on the table by turn two. Then his super vox for bringing everything in nice and close. That could be a pretty serious one-two punch.

[Lord Asvaldir]

With a combi flamer, in order to just glance a leviathan on the front and side you need a 6, then another 5 or 6. If you're fortunate enough to reach the rear armor then sure you're needing 6s then +3, but those still aren't good odds. Also I could be wrong about this, but I believe twin linked flamers just get reroll to wound, not armor pen and if that's the case combi flamers with fatal strike are mediocer vs a leviathan even with the extra hits.

[SkimaskMohawk]

They get to reroll armour pen.

 

On average against front armour with 7 combi, 3 plasma (playing that you can target the dread) you get about 5 glances 1 pen which usually leaves it with 1 hull point left. Rear should be easy since most people have mor deythan in a transport of some sort and you can plop them close enough to the main target of the leviathan if in rhino so that 6" move plus 6" disembark gets you in the arc. Of which you get 9 glances and 1 pen. Pretty decent of a solution IMO.

[Fangbanger]

If the dread is in the pod though, you will be hitting the front no?

[SkimaskMohawk]

So it depends on how you play the dread pod. There's a whole thread on it; one interpretation is that the dread is untargettable and the pod can't be charged. The other (that forgeworld has said how they play it) is that you can shoot the Dreadnought inside it and the dreads player has to mark down its facing. A lot of people don't like this because it adds a lot of house rules compared to the first way (and isn't a new to the pod). All that being said, if you go with the dread can be shot (as I've said every post) you have a facing you can maneuver around.

[Fangbanger]

Ah didn't realise there was a facing thing. I've always played it that you are always shooting the front regardless as its inside and has no facing.

[Shrieker]

Hi there XIX commanders - how would you kit a praevian infiltrating with castellax. Thinking refractor field for 5++ across squad, bolter (or combi) for range on 'cortex designator', camo cloak.

I'M stuck as to what else might be needed. It kinda feels like the praevian best 'hide' and should not tank at the front or challenge-buffer like a 'normal' AA sgt, so any additional CC weapon would be a bit of an overspend, and points are better used on another model.

[Nusquam]

Camo cloak and boarding shield for stealth and defensive grenades. Definitely at least a bolter for 24" designation. AA wouldn't be bad.

I recall a new rule about being able to target non-MCs/automatas in a mixed group, but I can't remember the details or where it is.

[SkimaskMohawk]

The mechanicum have it in patris cybernetica I believe, which lets you ignore the dude in favor of the robots for shooting. Praevians have no such rule and can in fact tank melta bombs in combat if you decide to go with any amount of models can use them 

[Flint13]

Catching a Str8AP1 in the face would be less than ideal for the Praevian wouldn't it?

[SkimaskMohawk]

He's immune to it. They only affect vehicles and MCs, as well as gun emplacements.  

[defl0]

While we are talking about Praevians... 

 

1. I can choose between the following rules: 

- Infiltrate & Fleet. 

- Furious Charge

- Scout

- Tank Hunter

 

2. If I take tank hunter, my Praevian still has infiltrate & fleet. 

- Fleet doesn't transfer to the squad, because the whole squad has to have it.

- Infiltrate transfers to the squad.

 

So I can have infiltrating, tank hunting Castellax ? 

- 

[Nusquam]

Yeah, that's one of the old arguments. I'm of the mind that you only choose one of the rules if you don't have a Inductee rule, IE for the rule-less legions. I follow the order of operation the rules tells us, which gives the inductee rules fort before you can choose. As in you get the Praevians LA rules or then if that doesn't happen you get to choose. I'm also basing this on that every other 'choice' rule explicitly tells you it's a choice and what you can choose from. This one does not. Another point is that the RG Praevian, for example, already has infiltrate and thus half the inductee rule would be useless. SO why would they go through that trouble to grant infiltrate redundantly and then also fleet? I've tried emailing FW about it a few times but no answer. It was discussed in every tactica thread at least once. It's not really game-breaking either way. After the latest FAQ that was like "Use common sense" I'm leaning more towards you choose only if you have an unlisted legion. But hey, talk with your opponent. I wouldn't base a tourney list on it though unless you asked ahead of time.

 

The NL one is pretty bad too. For 2MB you can grant your MCs fear, again. That one and the RG one should really change. The only reason I can see them granting the Automata infiltrate is the whole ICs cant infiltrate other units/joining debacle back in the day, but their own rules force it to happen, he has infiltrate and it works. No idea why they did the NL one, unless they planned on changing Trophies of Judgement and never did. SO who knows.

[Flint13]

He's immune to it. They only affect vehicles and MCs, as well as gun emplacements.

 

If he can't interact with the business end of the grenade because he's not a vehicle, monstrous creature or building, how could he "tank" it?

[Shrieker]

Thanks, good call on boarding shield, I'd missed the defensive grenade bit of it. 

Good to be aware of the (unavoidable) conundrums thrown by the 'unique mixed type unit' like meltabomb allocation - hadn't thought of it.  

[SkimaskMohawk]

You allocate the wounds to him in the phase, and they go away as they can't affect him. It'd be like saying you couldn't allocate Str 4 melee attacks to thanatars in a mixed unit because they're immune to the damage, or allocate low strength shots to the vehicle when riding in one.

[Nusquam]

S8 can still affect him. The 'permission' to use them from facing MCs is the only hurdle I see. Once you use the weapon it generates a wound. Just like if for some reason you had a high toughness character and a low toughness squad. Even if the S of the attacking weapon is only high enough to wound the weak models (from majority toughness) and you generate a wound, you can still end up killing the model with high toughness. Wounds don't disappear when there's still something that can be affected. The pool can empty, but that's under very specific predetermined circumstances.

 

Now if you were clamping as opposed to throwing, it would be weird that the praevian would rip it off and it poof. Plus with the new FAQRRATA^TM from GW you only have to worry about one.

[SkimaskMohawk]

There's no ambiguity to "Unless used in assaults against vehicles, gun emplacements or Monstrous Creatures, melta bombs have no effect". Is an infantry character one of those three? No, ergo, no effect.

 

Because it's a mixed unit-type unit, you only know what the melta bomb is being used against when you allocate wounds, because there's no restriction on allocating wounds to models, you can allocate to the infantry model (if he's in base contact to a model using a melta bomb), and once you do that you check to see if he meets the requirements of being affected by a melta bomb. Continue until the wound pool is depleted.  

 

Maybe in the new edition GW will make rules for mixed unit-type units in the main rule book and clear up the restrictions on grenade wound allocation, since kastelan maniples are a thing in 40k.

[Nusquam]

Definitely a loophole that wasn't intended. One that's now not going to be seen frequently anyway. It wouldn't sit well with me if you could still use all the MBs in a squad.

 

"I allocate all those meltabombs on my Praevian, he's immune to S8 AP1 from meltabombs because he's not an MC, Vehicle, or Gun." I couldn't do that to an opponent in good faith. I keep going back to the all the "use common sense" bits from the faqrrata. But I'll cross that bridge if I ever happen upon it.

 

Oh also, Knights are back in as LoWs  on page 9 now I see. That pleases me.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Nusquam

[Shrieker]

RAW buildings are immune to meltabombs by that same logic. Think it's just a quirk of knocking together the first hybrid MC/infantry unit in game in 150 words, would have to agree with the opponent that the melta hit goes on mc - i mean the guy just paid 50+ points to equip his breachers for the opportunity to use 1/turn, i wouldn't want to add offense to injury...

[SkimaskMohawk]

I agree its a result of GW not thinking about mixed units, but its very clear that melta bombs are supposed to be used on structures, monsters and vehicles, not dudes.

 

Is it fair someone used wound allocation rules in conjunction with the restriction on a weapons rules to potentially counter it? Debatable. Is it fair for someone who read the rules carefully and found the interaction to then be told by his opponent who never looked up rules interactions that they were the bad sport for using that interaction mid game? Also debatable.

 

The amusing thing is that the melta bomb trick will only work once against an intelligent opponent, since they will simply stop using melta bombs on models in base to base contact with the infantry model, preventing the wounds being allocated to it. For such a "bad faith" maneuver, there's a surprising amount of counter play; rather more than say, shooting at an IC manned chariot

[Nusquam]

I'm not saying it's going to be a game-changer. It's rarely going to pop up. This game isn't a regulated professional sport where you use every trick to get ahead. If your group enjoys loopholes and finds them cheeky that's one thing. I'm throwing my two thrones at it. I wouldn't deny my opponent because of a technical loophole like that. Same if they tried using MBs against any fort I had. But I don't speak for everyone.

 

But a gentlemans game isn't going to earn you many sporting points exploiting a loophole, even if it's niche, in a game that's not designed to be technical; a game that makes the designers have say "use common sense" multiple times in a FAQ.

 

Though a rare scenario it may end up being.

 

That's the entirety of my thoughts on it.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Nusquam