[HH1.0] Raven Guard Tactics

[Rhaivaen]

I.A. Vol. 10, Badab war 2, contains a Apoc formation, of 3 Caestus Assault Rams, cost is 175 + Models? (does that mean you pay for each assault ram separately in add to the base cost or what?)

 

Was thinking of taking those 3 in one HS slot, and 2 other units, flamer one and plasma one to fill them. they would start in reserve anyway being flyers, that would alleviate the restrictions of the HS in the Recon anyway :)

[Nusquam]

You can't use 40k apoc formations in 30k. You can do a sub-orbital strike wing of three flyers as a Lord of War choice, but Rams have too many HPs to qualify, the max is 3 each.

[defl0]

Is it wrong that I want to field 6 fire raptors?

[Rhaivaen]

You can't use 40k apoc formations in 30k. You can do a sub-orbital strike wing of three flyers as a Lord of War choice, but Rams have too many HPs to qualify, the max is 3 each.

I am just surfing the net, and I see nowhere mention of the 4 Hull points

Btw, Rams are fast attack, not heavy support in 30K.. interesting detail.

I found this: http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A7x9UnHyNVxYYTAA5oR3Bwx.;_ylu=X3oDMTByMWk2OWNtBGNvbG8DaXIyBHBvcwMyBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--/RV=2/RE=1482466930/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.forgeworld.co.uk%2fresources%2ffw_site%2ffw_pdfs%2fWarhammer_40000%2fVehicles_Update.pdf/RK=0/RS=NsB5oGJgLpooKtOy8IWtAlZDIls-

this file says 3 hull points :)

Is it wrong that I want to field 6 fire raptors?

Yup

Edited December 22, 2016 by Rhaivaen

[Caillum]

Rhaivaen, as that's a 40k info sheet, it has no bearing on 30k at all. In 30k, Caestus Assault Rams have 4 Hull Points, are a Heavy Support choice, and cost 305 points.

 

A good place to start with all these ideas is the 2 Legion Red Books. They are great value, and are also available (even cheaper) as ebooks.

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/The-Horus-heresy-legiones-Astartes-Age-of-Darkness-Army-List

 

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-AU/The-Horus-Heresy-Legiones-Astartes-Age-of-Darkness-Legions

[Rhaivaen]

I am well aware of those, but thanks anyway :)

[Fangbanger]

It would appear not...

[Rhaivaen]

It would appear not...

`Trolling for attention?

being aware of them and owning them is two different matters altogether..

[Fangbanger]

It felt like you where showing ignorance towards them as they didn't show the rules you wanted. It's obviously just a tone I'd built up in my head from reading your posts, that's the problem with the Internet over face to face interaction.

 

I troll for my own pleasure rather than attention anyway

[Rhaivaen]

Yea well... 3 or 4 hull points is a weird/ big difference, and I did not find so far doing a google on the unit.

And changing them from HS to FA is also a big change, but don't mind either...

[defl0]

On this topic ish, stay do you think is the best flier heavy ROW?

[Slips]

Look, the thing is, regardless of changes, you can't use their 40k profile in 30k because they have a 30k profile found in the Generic Space Marine Legions Redbook.

 

And in that book, its a Heavy Support option with 4 hull points and costs 305 before upgrades.

 

So get the 30k rules (I don't care how) and look up the profile. Just googling "Caestus Assault Ram Rules" isn't the way to go about it.

 

And you'd think more stock would be put into the posters here who do have the rules for the 30k Version of the Caestus Assault Ram.

 

 

+++

 

Flyer Heavy RoW would be a toss up between Angels Wrath and Drop Assault Vanguard depending on points and what you want to use as troops.

 

If you're not using Assault Marines as troops then Angels Wrath is the better option since it lets you take Storm Eagles as dedicated transports for eligible troops which equates to a maximum of 6 for that section.

 

3 More flyers of Choice in Fast Attack and 3 More in Heavy Support gives you a total of 12. Take a Sub-Orbital Wing in LoW for another 3 (iirc Space Marines can) for 15.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Nusquam]

I want to see an AirCav Decapitation list. Sure, it's not "Stomreagles or Anvillus for everyone" but we do get to give Darkwing DTs to Mor Deythan, Termis, and Vets. We can take 8 flyers in a RoW(Even more technically if we take Recons, but that's too many points) that doesn't force them with hard restrictions. That's pretty scary.

 

Or a Recon Company RoW for Troop Recons taking Stormeagles, and a full three HS for Fire Raptors

[Fangbanger]

It's something I have been toying with back and forth to mount as much as possible in Eagles/wings for decap strike, it's just not very points effective is the problem.

 

Ive seen Pete do an air cav list using potl, so you could go all mounted. You still need stuff on the ground turn 1 so think termies in anvilus, leviathan in pods etc..

[Nusquam]

Oh and Maun can take one too, keep forgetting.

 

It's less points inefficiency, because they are flyers and are pretty good, and more no room for other things. Fortunately everything that can take Darkwings as a DT can score aside from Maun. Also decap strike can get you pods. I really want to use deathstorms but they compete with so much.

 

I just watched a batrep today of AL vs RG. Pretty good, a few errors.

A few missed plays like hit and run for corax to shoot up alpharius' unit

 

I wish breachers were better. A bunch coming out of an outflanking Darkwing sounds awesome. But alas, they let AP4 or worse weapons hit their armour and don't use the shield unless its AP3 or better. Even then it's just the powerfield that saves them because if it can pierce power armour... /rant.

[Rhaivaen]

Video doesn't work for me ((

[Fangbanger]

It can be done in decap, the trouble is having enough on the table to survive turn 1 when you only have probably 3 pods landing. Example list:

 

3k decap

 

Maun with pod (for rounding up)

 

8 x Mor Deythan squad, Combi weapons, Darkwing

8 x Mor Deythan squad, Combi weapons, Darkwing

8 x Mor Deythan squad, Combi weapons, Darkwing

 

 

5 x vets, Combi Melta, machine killer, pod

 

10 x tac marines, pod

10 x tac marines, pod

 

Lightning, kraken load out

 

Leviathan, cyclone and drill, phosphex, ac, pod

 

You need the levi over a fire raptor so you have something more survivable turn 1. Not sure this is the way to do air cav well as your not really benefiting from decap or being raven guard

[Withershadow]

I wish breachers were better. A bunch coming out of an outflanking Darkwing sounds awesome. But alas, they let AP4 or worse weapons hit their armour and don't use the shield unless its AP3 or better. Even then it's just the powerfield that saves them because if it can pierce power armour... /rant.

 

Breachers need only one thing to be good. They need to throw away their weak sauce garbage armor and borrow some from the Auxilia. If they could reroll all saves vs blasts and templates instead of just armor, they would have some amazing uses. Behind an Aegis they would make for really durable anchors, and even outside of it getting a 6++ reroll vs Whirlwinds or Phosphex would make them very solid.

 

Then add pinning to sniper rifles and wowza, suddenly recon squads are great too.

 

Then make Destroyers 20 points a model with jump packs.

 

Done?

[Nusquam]

Well the Darkwing is a RG specific unit that offer alternative redeployment. Same with pod access and Decap Strike. Decap helps you go first and PE(IC) is all game. Plus it gives you pods. It's hard not to benefit from it.

 

One thing I got stuck on early in my gaming career was trying to take advantage of every rule. IE not putting something that could infiltrate in a flyer. But when you compare to most legions, besides AL, you will realize that RG have more opportunity for different tactics than them. We can infiltrate, outflank, and have access to a unique flyer that can also outflank. Our RoW gives us pods without the drawback of Orbital Assault. So it's not that we're not taking advantage of being RG, it's that being RG presents us with a lot of options that most legions don't have. Some are even pigeon-holed into the same list/RoW so they're pretty predicable.

 

Another thing is that you don't have to start all the Mor Deythan in their Darkwings, they are gunships too. They have stealth, shroud bombs, infiltrate, and scout base. Infiltrate 18", scout 6, move 6" and then you're only 6" away. Sure you might want to go all combiplas and plas rather than flamer but still; You can have a board presence with a lot of flyers. 20 plasma shots at BS5 twinlinked with rending as also pretty solid AT too. That will do 3HP on AV14 and 6 or 7 on AV12(enough to kill a dread with a 4+) or 8 marines with a 4+ cover. Pretty scary. The best part being that you can put them in the Darkwings if you need to as well. Adaptability at its finest.

 

I'm looking at a list thats 2159 with 5 flyers.

• Maun
• 6 Mor Deythan, 4 combiplas, 2 plas, Darkwing
• 6 Mor Deythan, 4 combiplas, 2 plas, Darkwing
• AMs, Fist, AA, Combat Shield
• Tacs in a rhino
• Xiphon
• Lightning with Ground Tracking, Tank Hunter, 4 turbokrakens
• Fire Raptor, RAC, 4x Hellstrike

That's a lot of flying hate. You can have 4 infiltrating, and scoring, units turn one. Then you have a 3+ with reroll for all the flyers. Maun can even hide in a corner. Those two MD units can kill a lot of things turn one if you infiltrate and scout.

 

Going up to 2.5k I would personally would add 2 combiweapon Vets in pods(drop a MD with a plasmagun and youre at 2499), maybe a Damocles at 3k to all but guarantee 5 flyers turn two with a bonus barrage and additional deepstrike bubble should you want any of the flyers to deepstrike(like the lightning to make sure you get side armor/are out of LoS of mortis dreads).

 

2499 points

• Maun with camo
• 6 Mor Deythan, 4 combiplas, 2 plas, Darkwing
• 5 Mor Deythan, 4 combiplas, 1 plas, Darkwing
• 5 Vets in a pod, probably combimelta and machine killer for both
• 5 Vets in a pod with combis
• AMs, Fist, AA, Combat Shield
• Tacs in a rhino(or pod for 3 to make both the vets come down T1)
• Xiphon(Could even take two lightnings instead and split the krakens up and add a TLML each)
• Lightning with Ground Tracking, Tank Hunter, 4 turbokrakens
• Fire Raptor, RAC, 4x Hellstrike

Darkwings outflank, with or without MD depending on the battlefield situation. With three pods the two vets can come down, or a vet and a tac if you want to save the vets for enemy reserves and just use the tac to score an objective. Turn one You could have a max of 27 bodies on the table. Then turn two 5 flyers come on and lay waste.

 

Going up to 3k points adds another flyer in FA anor/or Damocles, filling out the Vet squads, or even a typhon and some vets. Pretty spooky. I mean 3 flyers is intimidating, but 5 or 6? Downright scary.

 

 

 

I wish breachers were better. A bunch coming out of an outflanking Darkwing sounds awesome. But alas, they let AP4 or worse weapons hit their armour and don't use the shield unless its AP3 or better. Even then it's just the powerfield that saves them because if it can pierce power armour... /rant.

Breachers need only one thing to be good. They need to throw away their weak sauce garbage armor and borrow some from the Auxilia. If they could reroll all saves vs blasts and templates instead of just armor, they would have some amazing uses. Behind an Aegis they would make for really durable anchors, and even outside of it getting a 6++ reroll vs Whirlwinds or Phosphex would make them very solid.

Then add pinning to sniper rifles and wowza, suddenly recon squads are great too.

Then make Destroyers 20 points a model with jump packs.

Done?

 

 

I feel liek Auxilia was a typo. I just want breachers to use their shields all the time like they should. Like the old siege mantlet rules from FW. Reroll armor saves against shooting attacks. Maybe make it so you can't have artificer armor and a boarding shield to prevent 2+ rerollable.

 

Sniper rifles do need pinning back.

 

Destroyers need to be 100 base, 15 per additional model, and like 50 for packs squad wide. They need an overhaul, but those price reductions would take them from "left behind and mediocre" to "every day average good".

Edited December 24, 2016 by Nusquam

[Fangbanger]

I just don't think having only 1-4 power armour units the only thing on the board turn 1 a good strategie. There is so much in 30k that can take this down turn I think you need men mounted or armour on the deck.

 

I hear what your saying about having MD able to start in or out of transport offers flexibility, but I don't think the dark wings are that good a gun boat. If you want that, why not go orbital assault and just slam the heavies with fire raptors, fast with a lightning or 2 and then have MD in pods with tacs? You can still decide when the MD come in with pod manipulation.

 

The problem with Orbiatl assault is no armour, the same problem with running an air cav list with decap strike.. Lack of armour on the ground.

 

This is why after a lot of deliberations for how I can go air cav and plug some holes, I came up with this 3k list I'm currently building towards:

 

Maun

 

5 X vets, combi melta, machine killer, pod

8 X Mor Deythan, combi meltas, darlkwing

5 X Mor Deythan, combi flamers, rhino

Apoth with jump pack

 

15 X tac marines

15 X Tac marines

 

10 X dark fury

Lightning, kracken pens

Lightning, kracken pens

 

Fire raptor, autocannon, hell strike

 

Typhon siege tank

 

 

4 flyers,plenty of fire power to handle power armour and enough ap2 to come In as vehicles are getting popped by the lightnings. You could easily add another flyer for the other MD squad instead of the furrys, but I wanted them in because the models are so cool. This would also free up the slot and points for a xiphon is desired (although I do not rate them)

Edited December 24, 2016 by Fangbanger

[Biscuittzz]

Oh and Maun can take one too, keep forgetting.

 

It's less points inefficiency, because they are flyers and are pretty good, and more no room for other things. Fortunately everything that can take Darkwings as a DT can score aside from Maun. Also decap strike can get you pods. I really want to use deathstorms but they compete with so much.

 

I just watched a batrep today of AL vs RG. Pretty good, a few errors.

 

A few missed plays like hit and run for corax to shoot up alpharius' unit

 

I wish breachers were better. A bunch coming out of an outflanking Darkwing sounds awesome. But alas, they let AP4 or worse weapons hit their armour and don't use the shield unless its AP3 or better. Even then it's just the powerfield that saves them because if it can pierce power armour... /rant.

 

The AL list was a bit off but still, it was a beautiful showcase of what RG can do when reserves go their way. Quite close actually to the list I want to build but I'm looking to get a unit of destroyers in there somewhere because well......destroyers. 

 

Probably switch out the dread and see.

 

Edit: Why no Corax in the lists above? He would definitely survive being on the board turn 1 if something else is there with him to get use out of the Raven Lord rule. I'd have him before a typhon just for fluff reasons anyway.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Biscuittzz

[Fangbanger]

For me the Raven's lack big fire power having only 1 heavy slot, Typhon handles that role very well.

 

I've spent my whole heresy running Angron too so done the primarch thing.

 

I think corax is good sure, but the Typhon adds more to my list than Corax would

[Nusquam]

I just don't think having only 1-4 power armour units the only thing on the board turn 1 a good strategie. There is so much in 30k that can take this down turn I think you need men mounted or armour on the deck.

 

This is where our tastes differ; I've personally had success with a first turn low foot print. If you have pods and are really afraid, steal first and force your opponent to go second or don't try to seize. So long as you're going second and have reserves coming in, pods, or a 3+ rerollable with Maun you can't get Sudden Death'd out because it checks at the end of the game turn. Even then I've never had to use that strategy, because most things that tend to erase units only have a 36" reach, while 48" are things like lascannons which have low volume that you could easily tank with Stealth/Going to Ground and if if you go first you infiltrate everything anyway to deploy out of range. Then flyers can come on and reach just about anything. Then if you're going first things like Mor Deythan are going to pop off and do serious damage anyway and be spent. Then you're opponent will assuredly dump a lot into them to try to kill them. Go to ground and use stealth, and shrouded if you use a Recon Company, and make them hard to dig out with up to a 3+ cover in open terrain. You can make it work. But it's not the only way to do it either. There's a lot of room for play in either direction that works.

 

I do like Corax for these things, flyers will easily keep Corax not!invisible all game. It's just things like a Typhon or Stormsword are going to instantly be earning back points.

 

Edit: spelling

 

Also I do love me some Destroyers.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Nusquam

[Fangbanger]

It's refreshing to have so much variation in playstyle for once. Using my world eaters and discussing lists/tactics, there's only really one way to make them work. I can see a lot of flexibility and fun in battlefield roles and list building again which is a big plus for me, even if I do have to go loyalist...

[Nusquam]

I was rereading the generic RoWs and looked at Sky Hunter Phalanx again. That may be another good option for a flyer heavy list. You can load up on bikes, shoot, jink, re-enter with those that jinked when your flyers come on, and then outflank with them immediately next turn. Where most legions would struggle if they don't spam bikes/fill up their FA with transports, we can load up termis, mor deythan, and vets in darkwings without using up a single fast attack slot for an anvillus or stormeagle. I have to check the BRB to see if jetbike, or if someone knows in the meantime, if jet bike is a type or subtype of bike for attaching apothecaries.

 

Or you could load up on anvillus full of Mor Deythan anyway, that's pretty scary. Deepstrike in the edge of Mauns bubble, flat out really far, then jink. I really need to get some of those pods...

 

Then that reminded me of an older post I did in this thread. Using a Delegatus to take troop vets in Darkwings aided by other flyers is still an option. Pride of the Legion could too I suppose, but that's so over used. At least with Chosen Duty you get a VP if your Consul survives. but you won't have maun for flyer rerolls.

Edited December 26, 2016 by Nusquam