[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[WolfOfHorus]

Who the hell wrote the AL rules? They make the Legions in Book 1 and 2 (the exception being IH) look like crap.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Being fair, the book 1 rules always were crap, and little more than giving a few favourable rules to the well balanced Legion list. Then book 2 came along, and you had Daemons Salamanders and Iron Hands going up against a legion who must challenge, and if the challenger dies suffers a morale penalty anyway when they don't have protection against Sweep.

 

Where's that gif of the joker clapping?

Edited August 20, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[WolfOfHorus]

What gets me is that, yes, the special units aren't great for AL, butthe sheer amount of flexibility between Army wide Tankhunters or Infiltrate AND a cheap special character that lets you choose you Warlord trait is ridiculous. While the Legion list is balanced, the Legions are most certainly not.

 

I'm only bitching because I'll be fighting them in the next week or so.

Edited August 20, 2015 by WolfOfHorus

[Terminus]

The combination of Mutable Tactics and Skorr's Strategic Trait, especially in Coils of the Hydra, is indeed very flexible and potent.

 

If you come across a table full of ruins, you can pick Conqueror of Cities rather than using mutable tactics on move through cover. Or you can use Master of Ambush to give Infiltrate to only three units (I assume since they ruled you could use Mutable Tactics to meet criteria for Coils, you can use his strategic trait as well), and take Scout as your mutable tactics. Now that squad of 20 marines can infiltrate within 18", redeploy within 12", and unleash rapid-fire range Fury of the Legion in the first turn.

 

Speaking of first turn, if the opponent has a ridiculous alpha strike, and you didn't get first turn (with the +1's help), you can pick Strategic Genius to get a re-rollable 5+ to seize initiative. If the opponent brought a lot of daemons (that aren't just being summoned) and/or fliers, even Divide to Conquer can be a good choice for a stacked -2 to enemy reserves.

 

Of course, this does mean you are limited to Vigilator Consuls, but they are often a good choice that compounds the Legion's deployment options.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'd still rather take Dynat over Skorr.

[Terminus]

For orbital assault specifically, sure. But as you say, Raven Guard (or any 40K space marine list honestly) does it better.

[shaun03]

I tried out orbital assault list the other night and pretty good success. It wasn't strong list and just trail list. Thinking of making a stronger list and more suited for tougher list out there.

 

The ram is beast I would call it auto include if the price at 40k level 30k it bit steep, ( did it got price drop in book 5?)

 

More grav dreads look solid, I only own 1 and toss on Krese AC and mainly it just sits and collects dust.

 

The only downside of game was listing to another player bitch about me using my BA drop pods. I guess fluff of false flag mission doesn't sit well with rule lawyers.

[Caillum]

Always liked the look of the Caestus. Glad to see people rate them on the table! It may be 30 points more than the 40k one, but it has an extra HP, Machine Spirit and Armoured Ceramite (included for free). The wing-mounted weapons are a wash really, as the 40k ones are better but "One Use Only", and the 30k havoc launchers can be upgraded. Given 30k stuff tends to be pricey anyway, the Caestus is a geat deal!

 

Grav Dreads look tasty. Going to run 2 Contemptors with 2 gravfists & 2 Kheres initially. Can then mix and match the pair as I see fit, though will probably be a Kheres Mortis and a dual Grav Dread.

 

If this other player is butthurt about you trialling a list, he is the one who has to change his attitude. Wargaming is about having fun (and hopefully winning! :P) with other people. Glad to hear you had fun regardless!

[shaun03]

Yeah price right for 30k, just would be attractive if you took take for less. And kit it self is easy to put together and doesn't cost too much $$

 

After I double checked Dynat rules and they applies to dreads which makes dropping them in enemy deployment zones even a bigger threat.

 

Yeah that clown whiney little bitch, I don't like playing against him or even him being in the store.

 

Now just comes to fine tuning the list, perhaps it's a good thing FW doesn't take American Express. Cause now I want to stock up on cotemptors and add storm eagle or 2.

[Terminus]

Note that Dynat's rules don't do much for Kheres cannons (still very unlikely to blow up vehicle) or graviton guns (only get to use the rule on a 6, and as unlikely as the Kheres to blow it up). The Harrowing is frankly a largely irrelevant rule except for deep striking or outflanking AP1/AP2 weapons.

[shaun03]

True about AC, and grav gun it's self, but power fist gain the benefit. to max out the effect it's better to bring melta and las cannon options.

 

harrowing rule needs a list that maximize its effect. Deep striking a bunch of ap1/2 weapons can be devastating and add addition 1+ will make most people cry. 30k list in my area tend be more tanks and dread running with troop tax being keep to min. So being able to neutralize the strength is key.

Edited August 28, 2015 by shaun03

[Hesh Kadesh]

I tried out orbital assault list the other night and pretty good success. It wasn't strong list and just trail list. Thinking of making a stronger list and more suited for tougher list out there.

 

The ram is beast I would call it auto include if the price at 40k level 30k it bit steep, ( did it got price drop in book 5?)

 

More grav dreads look solid, I only own 1 and toss on Krese AC and mainly it just sits and collects dust.

 

The only downside of game was listing to another player bitch about me using my BA drop pods. I guess fluff of false flag mission doesn't sit well with rule lawyers.

Ask him to give you the money to purchase ~9 new Drop Pods or Anvillus Pods. If he doesn't, tell him to sit down.

[A/O]

Greetings.

 

Being an old* Warhammer 40K player (*2nd to 3rd Ed.) the HH version of WH40K is very, very interesting to me. Have read - skimmed - most of the thread and have a few questions/points. 

 

1. What are our obvious picks for the Rewards of Treason unit? Red Butchers, Tyrant Siege Terminators, Iron Havocs, Mor Deythan + Darkwing. Or is it a case by case basis as there are no obvious auto-picks that shore up our weaknesses.

 

2. Is the Armillus Dynat list the only competitive list we have? My feeling is no, such is the AL flexibility, but never having played a game of 30K I'm not able to make comment with any authority.

 

3. Our Legion specific units - Lernaean Terminators and Headhunters - do not seem that much better than other options available and should not really feature in a list that places results first and fluff second. Am I correct or missing something?

[shaun03]

Case by case is way to look at, as the number of units we can take keeps giving better when new unique unite come out. Book 5 drop some nasty UM units, I got chance to see them in action. I personally favor iron havoc a with ML cheapest flak in the game, reducing cover save as well. I though red butchers were great choice until I used them and saw they just look good on paper, and player with skill will make you regret taking the butchers.

 

Dynat is great addition to any list. I like skorr as well. But 30k competitive list really depend on what your local area is like. And if you plan building just 30k only or building to play 30k and 40k. But over all the flexibility we have can be helpfull.

 

The terminators are odd unit few pages back there few post on them. Headhunters need a faq about combi weapons. But there solid unit add in Dynat and for PE Benfits and CC ability plus giving them BS 6. Also headhunter and destroyers work well together but heavy investment in points and against most list.

[A/O]

Regarding Rewards of Treason and other Legions units, will some will reduce in effectiveness as they will not be benefitting from their original Legions special rules?

 

No idea what my local gaming scene is like, I'm about 15 years removed!

 

Lernaean seemed too unfocussed and/or generalist. They're benefit obviously being stubborn and scoring so I imagine that they would/could be unleashed on an objective holding enemy unit, wipe them out then sit on it to secure a VP. Though let me know if I'm way off the mark.

[Alpharius164]

Has anyone had any luck with a transport rush list? Tac squads in rhinos, terminators (possibly firedrakes) in landraiders, footslogging dreadnoughts for anti armour etc?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Tac Squads are useless point taxes whose only benefit is to sit in cover/reserve long enough so that it becomes difficult for the enemy to remove your ability to Score.

 

Terminators/Fire Drakes in Land Raiders (or Spartans, if you're wondering) is very expensive, you're looking at around 500pts per unit+transport. I can't think of a way to make Land Raiders useful for their cost. Only real thought I have is to take a Squadron of 2 Achilles and a Proteus with Explorator Array.

 

You should never really footslog dreads, they're too low. Unless they're Mortis/Deredeo, and they're not especially effective against Anti Armour. Consider a Dual Grav Dread in a Pod going up against a Typhon; that's 4 Hull Points from Grav Shots, and forcing it to move (and hence 24" range rather than 48") or it risks getting assaulted by 4 (maybe even 5 if they increase the attacks of a dreadnought in line with the Codex: Space Marines) S10 AP2 attacks. Forcing it to move can help limit its lines of sight unless you play on a snooker table. (Don't play on a Snooker Table). 

 

In short, you won't succeed. Alpha Legion are slightly better at it due to Infiltrate/Scout, but don't expect it to go very well; there is a lack of Open Topped/high fire point vehicles like Chimera, Assault Transports are expensive, and Drop Pods are limited to Dreadnoughts without the Rite of War. Like most answers, if you want to run Armoured Assault, run Raven Guard.

 

There is a niche for Iron Hands; outflanking Seekers, Caestus Assault Rams, and Gorgonators are comparatively cheap (don't need a Primus Medicae, 5 men strong, and can fit in a Phobos which can tank shock enemy units off objectives). But Armoured Assault suffers from just not having enough points. 

 

If you're wanting to run Armoured Assault, spam AV13. There only cheap Flyers are available via the Lord of War, so no Typhon, which means that you need access to things like Melta or Plasma Preds. Deredeo's take up Heavy Support, so your flyer counters are either other flyers (via Lord of War) or Kheres Temptor-Mortis, which means less Terminators.

 

The Legion list is not designed around armour spam, because there just isn't enough competitive medium vehicles capable of doing anything against the higher tier vehicles. Alpha Legion double suffer, because their bonuses are against Infantry, and for their infantry. If you're "wasting points" on Armoured Vehicles, don't bother with Alpha Legion, play Iron Warriors and say that they're Alpha Legion (maybe include a small Allied Force of Alpha's).

 

Hammer of Olympia for Iron Warriors is about the best use I can think of for Armoured Assault in that manner as well; something along the lines of 3 Squads of Breachers in Proteus with Explorator Arrays and dual Grav. These Scout forward, disembark, then unleash their bolters, before Turn 2 combining firepower to unleash 6 Graviton and 6 TL Lascannon shots. The rest of the army is 6x Predators and 2x Vindicator Tank Destroyers. A foot mounted Rocket Vomit Siege Tyrant Squad just trundles alongside a pair of Praevians, while a pair of Kheres Mortis hold the flanks of the armoured task force, and a lone dual Grav Dreadnought presses from the enemies deployment zone. Maybe a Typhon or a pair of Avenger Strike Fighters come on from the flanks if you can afford it. That's probably around 3K points though.

[Alpharius164]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I see what you mean... how do you play a COH army then? I also quite like the idea of taking gal vorbak and infiltrating them and hoping that's enough of a delivery method... Also, as tac squads don't achieve much, what would you take for your compulsory troop choices? And I'm right in thinking the only way to drop pod dreadnoughts is with the orbital assault ROW?

Cheers

Edited August 31, 2015 by Alpharius164

[Hesh Kadesh]

Tactical Squads in Rhinos, funnily enough. They sit in reserve and don't get shot. Hide in plain sight, and just have them Flat Out Rhino rush for the objectives late game when they come on or just have them sit in their Drop Pod when on playing OA.

 

Each Dreadnought has a list of available transports for it; with orbital assault, talons can take 1-3 in drop pods (1 per pod) in OA, but in normal lists, Talons in Drop Pods for nonOA are 1 only.

[Terminus]

If using Skorr and Coils, it's pretty easy to have the first turn and give a tac unit both infiltrate and scout. You could potentially (unless I'm reading something wrong), infiltrate 18" away, scout to within 12", and unleash a rapid-fire range Fury of the Legion attack with 20 dudes. Seems like a thing, although you would have to deploy them in a way that probably won't leave many cover options.

[Caillum]

Hammer of Olympia for Iron Warriors is about the best use I can think of for Armoured Assault in that manner as well; something along the lines of 3 Squads of Breachers in Proteus with Explorator Arrays and dual Grav. These Scout forward, disembark, then unleash their bolters, before Turn 2 combining firepower to unleash 6 Graviton and 6 TL Lascannon shots.

Unfortunately, you can't use a Proteus with EAA to scout Breachers/Tacs - transport capacity is only 8. Cool idea though!

 

Also, how is a Dual Grav Dread doing 4 HP in a turn? Or is that meant to be over 2 turns?

[A/O]

 

If using Skorr and Coils, it's pretty easy to have the first turn and give a tac unit both infiltrate and scout. You could potentially (unless I'm reading something wrong), infiltrate 18" away, scout to within 12", and unleash a rapid-fire range Fury of the Legion attack with 20 dudes. Seems like a thing, although you would have to deploy them in a way that probably won't leave many cover options.

 

A 20 man Tac squad would attract a lot of fire-power and take a long time to wipe out, taking the heat off your other units. Give them all an additional CC weapon and I think anyone would think twice about charging them. But is 290 points too much to spend on a troops choice in 30K? Add in a Nuncio Vox and Legion Vexilla and they be more resistant to morale and act as a DS beacon.

[Slips]

 

 

If using Skorr and Coils, it's pretty easy to have the first turn and give a tac unit both infiltrate and scout. You could potentially (unless I'm reading something wrong), infiltrate 18" away, scout to within 12", and unleash a rapid-fire range Fury of the Legion attack with 20 dudes. Seems like a thing, although you would have to deploy them in a way that probably won't leave many cover options.

 

A 20 man Tac squad would attract a lot of fire-power and take a long time to wipe out, taking the heat off your other units. Give them all an additional CC weapon and I think anyone would think twice about charging them. But is 290 points too much to spend on a troops choice in 30K? Add in a Nuncio Vox and Legion Vexilla and they be more resistant to morale and act as a DS beacon.

 

Only Problem with this tactic is that it also puts them very close to some guns that can fire very Nasty Templates that would more or less instantly Erase them, like: A Typhon or Medusa Batteries.

 

Either Option only needs One shot to invalidate the whole unit because of S10 (no FNP, Wounding on 2s) Ap1/2 (No Armor) and, in the case of the Typhon, Ignores Cover.

 

Zap, there goes ~300 points of your army that could have been sitting on an objective, scoring and possibly protecting your mid-backfield.

 

The Threat Range of such a Tac Squad is also pretty limited. Yeah, 80 Bolter Shots are scary for small, Elite units but, when that unit is embarked in a Spartan, well....yeah. It also puts your Tac Blob into Fury of the Legion range as well.

 

Now, If you were to invest those 300 points into a 10 Man Volkite Culverin Squad, now you'd be talking since youd be able to pump out 40 S6 Deflagrate shots at up to 45" away and dont have to sacrifice shooting in the next turn. Problem is, they take a Heavy Support Slot.

 

+++

 

Theres a lot you have to consider when investing so much into squads and when their firepower is just Bolters, you can probably do better especially at high points limits. Dont just throw squads at your opponent because they're liable to get Vaporised and end up being a waste of points in the grand scheme of things.

[A/O]

 

 

 

If using Skorr and Coils, it's pretty easy to have the first turn and give a tac unit both infiltrate and scout. You could potentially (unless I'm reading something wrong), infiltrate 18" away, scout to within 12", and unleash a rapid-fire range Fury of the Legion attack with 20 dudes. Seems like a thing, although you would have to deploy them in a way that probably won't leave many cover options.

 

A 20 man Tac squad would attract a lot of fire-power and take a long time to wipe out, taking the heat off your other units. Give them all an additional CC weapon and I think anyone would think twice about charging them. But is 290 points too much to spend on a troops choice in 30K? Add in a Nuncio Vox and Legion Vexilla and they be more resistant to morale and act as a DS beacon.

 

Only Problem with this tactic is that it also puts them very close to some guns that can fire very Nasty Templates that would more or less instantly Erase them, like: A Typhon or Medusa Batteries.

 

Either Option only needs One shot to invalidate the whole unit because of S10 (no FNP, Wounding on 2s) Ap1/2 (No Armor) and, in the case of the Typhon, Ignores Cover.

 

Zap, there goes ~300 points of your army that could have been sitting on an objective, scoring and possibly protecting your mid-backfield.

 

The Threat Range of such a Tac Squad is also pretty limited. Yeah, 80 Bolter Shots are scary for small, Elite units but, when that unit is embarked in a Spartan, well....yeah. It also puts your Tac Blob into Fury of the Legion range as well.

 

Now, If you were to invest those 300 points into a 10 Man Volkite Culverin Squad, now you'd be talking since youd be able to pump out 40 S6 Deflagrate shots at up to 45" away and dont have to sacrifice shooting in the next turn. Problem is, they take a Heavy Support Slot.

 

+++

 

Theres a lot you have to consider when investing so much into squads and when their firepower is just Bolters, you can probably do better especially at high points limits. Dont just throw squads at your opponent because they're liable to get Vaporised and end up being a waste of points in the grand scheme of things.

 

 

Salient points, I still have much to learn it seems.

 

Alpha Legion being infantry heavy is both an advantage and a disadvantage.

[Terminus]

 

 

 

If using Skorr and Coils, it's pretty easy to have the first turn and give a tac unit both infiltrate and scout. You could potentially (unless I'm reading something wrong), infiltrate 18" away, scout to within 12", and unleash a rapid-fire range Fury of the Legion attack with 20 dudes. Seems like a thing, although you would have to deploy them in a way that probably won't leave many cover options.

 

A 20 man Tac squad would attract a lot of fire-power and take a long time to wipe out, taking the heat off your other units. Give them all an additional CC weapon and I think anyone would think twice about charging them. But is 290 points too much to spend on a troops choice in 30K? Add in a Nuncio Vox and Legion Vexilla and they be more resistant to morale and act as a DS beacon.

 

Only Problem with this tactic is that it also puts them very close to some guns that can fire very Nasty Templates that would more or less instantly Erase them, like: A Typhon or Medusa Batteries.

 

Either Option only needs One shot to invalidate the whole unit because of S10 (no FNP, Wounding on 2s) Ap1/2 (No Armor) and, in the case of the Typhon, Ignores Cover.

 

Zap, there goes ~300 points of your army that could have been sitting on an objective, scoring and possibly protecting your mid-backfield.

 

The Threat Range of such a Tac Squad is also pretty limited. Yeah, 80 Bolter Shots are scary for small, Elite units but, when that unit is embarked in a Spartan, well....yeah. It also puts your Tac Blob into Fury of the Legion range as well.

 

Now, If you were to invest those 300 points into a 10 Man Volkite Culverin Squad, now you'd be talking since youd be able to pump out 40 S6 Deflagrate shots at up to 45" away and dont have to sacrifice shooting in the next turn. Problem is, they take a Heavy Support Slot.

 

+++

 

Theres a lot you have to consider when investing so much into squads and when their firepower is just Bolters, you can probably do better especially at high points limits. Dont just throw squads at your opponent because they're liable to get Vaporised and end up being a waste of points in the grand scheme of things.

 

Well, you would benefit from deploying the models in somewhat of a long encircling line, so template clusters won't be as effective as against the typical staggered units. I would imagine any list seeking to use such an aggressive tactic would have other alpha strike elements that should be able to deal with at least some of those obstacles, like drop-podded graviton dreads vs. that typhon for example.

 

Whenever I consider Volkite Culverins, I always look to my Myrmidons.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Terminus