[HH1.0] 30k Alpha Legion Tactics

[Slips]

Now, I'm not saying that Infiltrate-Deploying a 20man Tac Blob is bad but, it has its time and place and there are factors you need to take into account if you consider going through with the idea especially when you might be better served just keeping them in cover, out of the way and on an objective instead as a Forward Aggressive element.

 

First: How large would the Footprint of a 20man TacBlob be if you were to spread them out in a way that you minimized the 7" Blast of a Typhon? Too large and, well, your idea of blasting a unit with 80 Fury of the Legion Shots becomes undoable because not every model in the Unit will be in range at that point and might lend themselves to getting Charged T1 which, if they're running Angels Wrath, would allow any JP Unit that did charge them to potentially Slingshot across the Board. Too clumped up and they vanish.

 

Second, if your answer to a Typhon is to Drop-Pod Graviton Dreads, How many will you be dropping and does their cost exceed that of the Typhon? 'Cuz, if you want to instagib a Typhon, you'll need 3 Graviton Dreads (it has 6HP) in Pods. Meaning 3/4 Elites Slots are now gone. And, should you roll a single 1 on any of those 6 Shots, the Typhon lives to shoot. At that point, are the concessions you are making to deal with a Typhon in this matter worth it? 2 Grav Dreads and 1 3x Grav Rapier Squad is still only 5HP.

 

Something that would be less taxing on a list would be a Lightning Primaris loaded for bare with Kraken Penetrators, Servitors and Ground Tracking Auguries. Takes a rarely used FA slot but, means that you'd have to clear the board of any Skyfire/Interceptor before the Fragile Thing Pops in. Much less of an Investment but, is a one-shot deal.

 

Dont forget, most armies have Deredeos and/or Contemptor-Mortis' who all have Interceptor. So, you might have 1 or more of your Pod Dreds landing in...and dying.

 

Or, simply enough, Augury Scanners spread around their side of the Board just straight-up denying Infiltration and Granting Interceptor to the unit if you DS in the bubble.

 

So yeah, Keep in mind that, in 30k, there are legit counters to everything else we can field some of them having a more general but pricey approach (Grav Dreads who can threaten Multiple Targets but take up a LOT of Slots if you want to make damn sure the Target Dies) or, a Cheaper more focused approach (Kraken-Lightning who can nigh-guarantee a kill on 6HP or Less Vehicles for ~200 points). Hell, even Melta Bomb Vets with Tank Hunters DPA T1 and Charging T2 with an Anvillus pod to ride in to get them there ASAP stands to deal more damage than Grav-Drops but has a higher Risk/Reward ratio since its 10 PA Bodies.

 

There are just too many Factors that make Infiltrating an Unwieldy 20 Man Tac Blob not worth the risk especially when you consider the amount of points you'd have invested into such a squad especially in Alpha Strike Lists where you'd want to maximize your Firepower and cost/efficiency.

Edited September 1, 2015 by Slipstreams

[SkimaskMohawk]

Just going to mention the contemptor mortis' and deredeo's intercept is really hard to use properly. First, it doesn't work if you have bottom of the turn since it specifically says you have to neither move nor run in its turn which then grants you the intercept and skyfire for that game turn (so if you havent had a turn to not move or run then it doesn't get activated). Secondly, they're gated by their poor 45 degree total firing arc on their guns, which really translates into 22.5 left and right.

 

The only real intercept threats to a dread pod are heavy support squads/iron havocs that will kill your pod (seeing as you're going to stay in it) and if they do that then they can't shoot the next turn 

[xera32]

Just going to mention the contemptor mortis' and deredeo's intercept is really hard to use properly. First, it doesn't work if you have bottom of the turn since it specifically says you have to neither move nor run in its turn which then grants you the intercept and skyfire for that game turn (so if you havent had a turn to not move or run then it doesn't get activated). Secondly, they're gated by their poor 45 degree total firing arc on their guns, which really translates into 22.5 left and right.

 

The only real intercept threats to a dread pod are heavy support squads/iron havocs that will kill your pod (seeing as you're going to stay in it) and if they do that then they can't shoot the next turn 

You do know that nearly everyone knows that FW wrote that rule incorrectly and no one who isn't an :cuss plays it like that. FW even give an example of what they mean "(ie, both the controlling player's turn, and his opponents following player rurn)."

 

As for firing arcs, the wording is it can swivel up to 45 degrees, not that it has a 45 degree arc. It is the same wording as the turn arcs for fliers. So you get a 90 degree arc on the dreadnought for shooting.

 

They still have blind spots but deredeos and contemptors that are placed correctly will deny ground and good firing lanes.

[Terminus]

Do the tactical rhino squads get any equipment other than the ubiquitous Vexilla? The Alpha Legion special wargear makes a fist/dagger combo really tempting, giving you three base powerfist attacks for only 20 points. Seems decent to be able to on occasion punch a few hull points or wounds off a dreadnought or Castellax that would otherwise have the Legionaires sissy-slapping it with krak grenades. Artificer armor also seems tempting, since even being rhino-riding objective-cowering bolter-bitches, these guys will get shot at, and there is a lot of AP3 nonsense out there. It does add up quickly, up to 90 points for three decked out Sergeants.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

Just going to mention the contemptor mortis' and deredeo's intercept is really hard to use properly. First, it doesn't work if you have bottom of the turn since it specifically says you have to neither move nor run in its turn which then grants you the intercept and skyfire for that game turn (so if you havent had a turn to not move or run then it doesn't get activated). Secondly, they're gated by their poor 45 degree total firing arc on their guns, which really translates into 22.5 left and right.

 

The only real intercept threats to a dread pod are heavy support squads/iron havocs that will kill your pod (seeing as you're going to stay in it) and if they do that then they can't shoot the next turn 

You do know that nearly everyone knows that FW wrote that rule incorrectly and no one who isn't an plays it like that. FW even give an example of what they mean "(ie, both the controlling player's turn, and his opponents following player rurn)."

 

As for firing arcs, the wording is it can swivel up to 45 degrees, not that it has a 45 degree arc. It is the same wording as the turn arcs for fliers. So you get a 90 degree arc on the dreadnought for shooting.

 

They still have blind spots but deredeos and contemptors that are placed correctly will deny ground and good firing lanes.

 

 

I have a very good memory of the rules, but despite that I'm still sometimes wrong (as Slips has proven). This isn't one of those times though.

 

First no, not everyone knows they wrote the rule incorrectly as its pretty clear and is pretty much the same across the models that have it (Deredeo has an exception for the chest weapons). Thanks for the verbal abuse btw as me and my buddies play it the way its written; my friend who uses a mortis was the one to find out and insist on playing it that way too so its not like all the non users were jealous or jerks or what have you. To wrap this up about the HTA rule your quote is for the wrong part, its for the duration of Skyfire and Intercept and then they kindly explained what a game turn is, not for what activates it.

 

Secondly, firing arcs. The wording is, to quote, "When firing a Walker's weapons assume that weapons mounted on a walker can swivel horizontally and vertically up to 45 degrees" while the wording for flyers reads "a Zooming Flyer can only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90 degrees before it moves". The wording isn't the same. Furthermore if you took 45 for left and right on a dread's weapons then you'd have 90 degrees of horizontal movement, not 45.

 

I'm fine if you houserule something different, but please don't tell me I'm playing the actual rules wrong and call me presumably an a**hole for it too

 

To wrap this up I'll mention they are much better at killing flyers as they can still pivot and shoot with their skyfired guns (as pivoting does not count as movement) and if the aiolos launcher isn't keyed into certain directions (so is a turret) then it would get full swivel, making the deredeo far better than normal mortis' 

Edited September 1, 2015 by SkimaskMohawk

[Hesh Kadesh]

Eh, the FAQ stops you using the HTA during the first turn anyway.

 

 

 

When do I need to declare that my Dreadnought is using its helical targeting array, and does it remain active for the rest of the game from then onwards?

The use of these is entirely optional and should be declared by the controlling player at the beginning of each of their game turns, with the caveat that the Dreadnought must remain stationary. When the helical targeting array is not used on any given turn, the Dreadnought may fire its weapons normally at ground targets.

 

So, nope. No first turn. And as for angles, Skimask is correct. It's about the only way that Pods can survive against Deredeo's by dropping out of their fire arc.

[Slips]

Do the tactical rhino squads get any equipment other than the ubiquitous Vexilla? The Alpha Legion special wargear makes a fist/dagger combo really tempting, giving you three base powerfist attacks for only 20 points. Seems decent to be able to on occasion punch a few hull points or wounds off a dreadnought or Castellax that would otherwise have the Legionaires sissy-slapping it with krak grenades. Artificer armor also seems tempting, since even being rhino-riding objective-cowering bolter-bitches, these guys will get shot at, and there is a lot of AP3 nonsense out there. It does add up quickly, up to 90 points for three decked out Sergeants.

Tac Squads get

• Nuncio-Vox Provides LoS for Barrage Weapons if they have LoS to the Target and the Barrage weapon is still in range. Also a 6" no-scatter Deepstrike Bubble
• Vexilla Re-roll failed Morale
• Can take an Additional Combat Blade/Chainsword at 2ppm or Swap Bolters for a CS/CB free
• Sarge then has gear options of: Artificer Armor, Melta Bombs and a Bolter Swap to: combi-weapon, Heavy Chainsword, LC, PW, PF, Plasma Pistol and any Legion Specific gear that can be given to a non-independent character

 

Eh, the FAQ stops you using the HTA during the first turn anyway.

 

 

 

When do I need to declare that my Dreadnought is using its helical targeting array, and does it remain active for the rest of the game from then onwards?

The use of these is entirely optional and should be declared by the controlling player at the beginning of each of their game turns, with the caveat that the Dreadnought must remain stationary. When the helical targeting array is not used on any given turn, the Dreadnought may fire its weapons normally at ground targets.

 

So, nope. No first turn. And as for angles, Skimask is correct. It's about the only way that Pods can survive against Deredeo's by dropping out of their fire arc.

Mind explaining why not? 'Cuz if you got First turn, you can declare it at the start of your T1 since the dread is eligible.

 

Sure, if you're going 2nd on T1 vs a Drop Pod list, you can't use the HTA since you can't have activated it yet but, going first, nothing in that statement, to me, says you are unable to use it.

[SkimaskMohawk]

I'm pretty sure he means no defense against first of first pods

[Slips]

I'm pretty sure he means no defense against first of first pods

Oh, ok then :P I misread that a bit then.

[Terminus]

 

Do the tactical rhino squads get any equipment other than the ubiquitous Vexilla? The Alpha Legion special wargear makes a fist/dagger combo really tempting, giving you three base powerfist attacks for only 20 points. Seems decent to be able to on occasion punch a few hull points or wounds off a dreadnought or Castellax that would otherwise have the Legionaires sissy-slapping it with krak grenades. Artificer armor also seems tempting, since even being rhino-riding objective-cowering bolter-bitches, these guys will get shot at, and there is a lot of AP3 nonsense out there. It does add up quickly, up to 90 points for three decked out Sergeants.

Tac Squads get

• Nuncio-Vox Provides LoS for Barrage Weapons if they have LoS to the Target and the Barrage weapon is still in range. Also a 6" no-scatter Deepstrike Bubble
• Vexilla Re-roll failed Morale
• Can take an Additional Combat Blade/Chainsword at 2ppm or Swap Bolters for a CS/CB free
• Sarge then has gear options of: Artificer Armor, Melta Bombs and a Bolter Swap to: combi-weapon, Heavy Chainsword, LC, PW, PF, Plasma Pistol and any Legion Specific gear that can be given to a non-independent character

You are misunderstanding my point. I am not asking what options tactical marines have available, I have the book in hand. :) Since the discussion is around effective troop choices in non-Mortalis scenarios, the consensus seems to be for Rhino squads that mainly babysit objectives. My question was whether it is worth giving any other equipment to these squads, because again, 3 power fist attacks for 20 points seems like a good buy. So does the artificer armor, except maybe not on the same guy (the armor guy is to tank hits, the fist guy is to hide and donkey-punch stuff if needed). Combi-flamer can get an honorable mention I guess, since combi-grav is not available in 30K, but meh.

[Slips]

In that case, not really, since its still only a Tac Sarge in a Tac Squad when you could, instead, take a Terminator Squad and give them Power Fists instead.

 

Yeah its pricier but, they're tougher and pump out more attacks and can still give the Sarge a Power Dagger for 4 Attacks on the Charge.

 

The main reason we take Tac Sarges with Artificer Armor and Power Fist or Power Axe & Melta bombs is: To pop a tank/transport, tank non-ap2 wounds for the Squad and assure mutual destruction if your tac sarge is in a Challenge with another equally geared Tar Sarge. +1A with a power dagger at that point, is pretty meh for 5pts.

[Terminus]

I disagree, the power dagger makes Alpha Legion demonstrably better than other Sergeants. You either swing an extra time if trading powerfist attacks, or if they don't have artificer armor you can take a chance to stab them at initiative. Even if you give all three sergeants the weapon combo, that's only 60 points vs 225 for bare terminators, so I don't get that argument. I got the new site exclusive on the way, so at least one Sergeant will rock the fist and dagger!

[shaun03]

I personally like power daggers, the minus -1s isn't to bad. If fielding anything with rad type weapons it becomes a cheaper PW. and giving extra attck to power fist and lighting claws, is nice.

 

I was looking at taking few rapier batteres but the wording on rules is holding me, the 2 marines benfits mutesble tactis but doese the weapons it self gain the benefit?

[Slips]

If you consider the Extra 5 Points on a Tac Sarge who is mainly there to tank Non-Ap2 for the Squad and ensure the Death of another equally equipped Tac Sarge and possibly take an extra marine out with Spillover for the challenge worth it, go for it.

 

I'm not saying dont do it but, to me, its only worth it if, at the end of your list building, you've got the points to spare. Its a Luxury thing.

 

But to me, Tac Squads are to sit back and cap objectives. I'll only ever pump the minimum into them, if I'm not running another RoW/FoC where they aren't required.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I personally like power daggers, the minus -1s isn't to bad. If fielding anything with rad type weapons it becomes a cheaper PW. and giving extra attck to power fist and lighting claws, is nice.

 

I was looking at taking few rapier batteres but the wording on rules is holding me, the 2 marines benfits mutesble tactis but doese the weapons it self gain the benefit?

No, the gun itself doesn't get the rules, but dependent on the rule, the gun benefits. Things like Infiltrate, Tank Hunter and Move Through Cover have wording which works provided one or more models in the squad has the rule.

[vladsimpaler]

Both Deep Striking Castellax and the saboteur are illegal, both down to how the order of operations goes.

Woah, let's hold up for a sec...how is it illegal by "order of operations"? Obviously the whole deal was a little sketchy (as befits the AL) but illegal is very surprising. 

 

Of course, rumors are saying that Castellax are going up in cost in the new Mechanicum Red Book so it might be a null point anyway

[Hesh Kadesh]

Okay, not illegal, as you're going to jail illegal. Illegal in game terms.

The Warlord Trait is generated before deployment. Until the unit is deployed, the Praevian is still an Independent Character. The Castellax are not a viable target for the Hammerstrike Assault Warlord Trait, because they are a unit of MC's. If you give the Praevian the benefit, then despite having the Deep Strike special rule, he may not deploy in Deep Strike reserve, as he must be deployed with the MC's, and the Deep Strike special rule is not one of those which affects the entire unit, and may only be utilised if the entirety of the unit has that special rule.

 

In regards to the Saboteur, you may not trigger wargear or special rules belonging to models held in reserve, of which the Combat Array is. To use the combat array, you much choose to do so at the start of your turn, which you cannot do so if the Saboteur is not on the field of battle, and the Saboteur may only trigger their rule when they arrive from reserve. 

 

In game "legally", they are both breaking rules due to order of operations. I for one cannot wait to see the new Red Books stealth errata. Castellax need to lose Rage and have that given to Vorax. 

[vladsimpaler]

Okay, not illegal, as you're going to jail illegal. Illegal in game terms.

The Warlord Trait is generated before deployment. Until the unit is deployed, the Praevian is still an Independent Character. The Castellax are not a viable target for the Hammerstrike Assault Warlord Trait, because they are a unit of MC's. If you give the Praevian the benefit, then despite having the Deep Strike special rule, he may not deploy in Deep Strike reserve, as he must be deployed with the MC's, and the Deep Strike special rule is not one of those which affects the entire unit, and may only be utilised if the entirety of the unit has that special rule.

 

In regards to the Saboteur, you may not trigger wargear or special rules belonging to models held in reserve, of which the Combat Array is. To use the combat array, you much choose to do so at the start of your turn, which you cannot do so if the Saboteur is not on the field of battle, and the Saboteur may only trigger their rule when they arrive from reserve. 

 

In game "legally", they are both breaking rules due to order of operations. I for one cannot wait to see the new Red Books stealth errata. Castellax need to lose Rage and have that given to Vorax. 

Ha, obviously I think we both meant illegal in game terms. ; ) 

 

Other than that, yeah makes sense that the Praevian is still technically a unique character. Definitely blows, but on the bright-ish side I now have 410 points free. Nothing that will ever come near how sweet that unit was deep striking, but I'll think of something else. With the changes, I'd have to end up rejigging costs somewhere anyway.

 

Regarding the Saboteur, I'd never used it as I had always thought it was definitely impossible to use under the circumstances so I'm not fussed about it either way. 

[Terminus]

 

Both Deep Striking Castellax and the saboteur are illegal, both down to how the order of operations goes.

 

Woah, let's hold up for a sec...how is it illegal by "order of operations"? Obviously the whole deal was a little sketchy (as befits the AL) but illegal is very surprising. 

Of course, rumors are saying that Castellax are going up in cost in the new Mechanicum Red Book so it might be a null point anyway

If Castellax are going up in price, Vorax and Domitars need to go down by a lot. And Magos needs independent character.

[shaun03]

Assumed with rapier batteries it depends on rules, figure ask before I deiced to pick a few up infiltrating few grav cannons would be usefull with all the tanks and dread heavy list that popped up over night.

 

The saboteur is a fun unit, that free pen hit is nice, they combat arary was just too good to be true. Finding points in competitive list isn't really worth it. Tried many times and dies to quickly and cane realize the points are better spent else wear.

 

Working up list for next event going COH. Dynat as HQ. Iron havocs ML. Sense it's 30k/40k event I got strike balance to each threat. I know there stupid D strength everything eldare and interspecter TAU list that would OA list cry.

 

However I still would like to bring my fire raptor and 1 lighting, but unsure on load out for the lighting.

[vladsimpaler]

Hmmm... if you're fighting against Eldar, it might make sense to take a unit of Volkite Culverins and some Grav weapons. Forcing them to go through difficult/dangerous terrain as well as pouring out your own hail of Str6 fire should do quite well. Grav also works particularly well against Wave Serpents even if they may not be used as much anymore. 

Another great counter would be Castellax with a Praevian, their hail of Str6 will only wound on a 5+ and then you get a 3+ armor save. Even 10 scatter bikes (270 points) firing 40 shots will only do about 2.9 (3) wounds which isn't even enough to take out a single Castellax. Then you answer back with a bunch of Str6 AP3 shots which should reduce their number by quite a few. 

When it comes to Tau, you have to take out the Pathfinders early on. 

I'm starting to find that Mechanicum is a great anti-40k army. 

[shaun03]

I don't own many mechanic units, starting think I should expans the collection.

 

Volkite is better in 40k matchs. Looking at grav rapier battery to counter them.

 

3 flyrant die easy enough iron havocs with ML. But dealing with IWND dule Spartans is something that always a hard counter,

 

And there new RG player haven't seen any of his list yet so trying be ready for it.

[Terminus]

Kraken missiles for lightning works. Can't make IWND rolls if you're already dead. :)

[Slips]

Yup! If you need a spartan or other 12hp or less super heavy dead to rights in one turn, a Lightning with 6 krakens, auguries for bs5 and servitors for tank hunters

[SkimaskMohawk]

Turn 1? It's a flyer though