[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[Slips]

Yup!

 

though I feel this RoW is more for the expensive Primarchs that are hard to fit into "Lower" Pointed Games such as Horus in 2k-2.5k. Removing the ~150+ Pt HQ tax goes a long way to making their inclusion sting less.

 

For Dorn though, being only 155 points more than Sigismund, he makes for a very Powerful HQ Selection in this regard ESPECIALLY for what he Brings and his now-buffed combat prowess.

 

Same for Guilliman.

 

Take note, GW Prime, this is how you get people to spend insane amounts of money on your stuff :P

[Charlo]

Seconded. Other than not being able to shoot and charge (lol Salvo?) Dorn is top tier for all his sweet buff candy and incredible weapon.

[Lord Blackwood]

if this chainsword of his doesn't have atleast three crosses on it , Im going to throw someone out a window 

[Ishagu]

Dorn is so powerful now,,I'm really happy.

Hands down one of my personal favourites from the Primarchs, and if I wasn't Ultra to the core I'd be wearing yellow armour.

[Frostmourne]

It's certainly making my Imp Fists harder to deny

[Brother Carn]

Greetings!

I have lurked around here at the 30k forum for some time, use to hang out in the Black templar sub-forum (the forum part with the most ZEAL in it!!) 

Since I played against my friends 30k Dark Angel army, the thought of jumping on the heresy train has been nagging me. But before I take the last step I need some consulting. My thought is to buy the Betrayal at Calth box and use a couple of tanks I already have (2 very old rhinos, a Spartan, a Siciran and a Fellblade). 

To start I need to pick a legion, and as I play Black Templars normally, Imperial Fist seams fitting and my first choice. I can build a more shooty oriented army for once, with a black/yellow theme it would fit with my black templar tanks. But after reading this tread I'm not so sure any more, IF seams to be kinda rubbish compared to the other legions, "tir 3" I read some were here...  I'm not after top tir tournament legion and army list, but... yellow is nice... anyway, how do people feel about IF? Why should I pick them and if not, where should I head instead? 

 

If we for a moment continue with the IF track, how to make the best use of the models I have + Calth? The stone gauntlet looks cool, but people seam to feel that the breacher is a kinda costly unit for what they do, a heavy tax, and that makes stone gauntlet a kinda bad choice. The other option I see is to play Pride of the legion and make 2 veteran squads instead of the breacher. Anyway, I made a army list out of the tanks I have already and the Calth box.  


Praetor, Cataphractii, SS, Paragon blade

Primus Medicae, Cataphractii, SS

5 Terminators, 2 ss/th, 2 pair of LC, plasma blaster

 

Spartan assault tank

Mortis Dreadnought, 2 TL-Autocannons 
 

15 Breacher, 3 grav, artificer armor, PF 

1 Apothecarium

10 Breacher, 2 grav, aa, PF, rhino

5 tactical support squad, 4 plasma/melta, aa, rhino

Sicrian

Fellblade


That would make around 2700 pts and around 300 pts left for a bit more upgrades and another unit or two. I got a lot of fire power, some anti-air and a good counter attack unit. 4 objective secure unit, 3 of them in tanks and a 15 blob with T5 and FNP for a home objective or guarding the fellblade.  

The other option I see would be changing breacher for vets, 2x10 with rhinos, and put the tactical support squad in a drop pod. Should be about the same point cost, more damage with the vets but less survivability. 
 

------

 

So would this make even a decent army? I'm not looking for a top tir army, just would like something playable and make use of a calth box along with the tanks I have. 

What do the more experiences players say, I'm totally open for suggestion and is the heresy train worth joining!?

Thanks!

 

 

[Ishagu]

Imperial Fists are definitely not rubbish. Not sure where you've been reading that but in my opinion they have some of the best Legion rules.

 

1+BS with bolter weapons army wide and Tank Hunters for heavy weapon squads.

Let's not mention unique wargear like Eternal Warrior upgrades, storm shields, assault Cannons and Terminators that can Deepstrike.

[Brother Carn]

Imperial Fists are definitely not rubbish. Not sure where you've been reading that but in my opinion they have some of the best Legion rules.

 

1+BS with bolter weapons army wide and Tank Hunters for heavy weapon squads.

Let's not mention unique wargear like Eternal Warrior upgrades, storm shields, assault Cannons and Terminators that can Deepstrike.

From page 6,  Hesh Kadesh stated "Imperial Fists "suck". They're a Tier 3, maybe Tier 4 legion." But thats maybe from a strict tournament-meta point of view.

 

BS 5 veterans with sniper seams like a fun setup, even high T monsters should go down, and a few ap 2 hits on-top of that.  

[Charlo]

Hesh is very insightful and spot on with his analysis... If you want to play a boring super win top tier army list :P

 

Fists don't have anything super standout about them, but that's what makes them strong. Thier basic dudes hit more often, thier heavy weapons smash vehicles better and thier characters are monsters in a challenge and will last all day.

 

Plus Terminators that get storm shields, teleporting and Assault cannons.

[Nova_chron]

From a strictly tournament viewpoint he may be correct. as he has also said your meta will h AC nge where certain legions are placed on that table.

 

Having played a game or two against the imperial fists admittedly it was essentially a B@C box with a quad gun added against a Mish mash of raven guard, their legion tactics when used to their advantage are great BS5 FOTL from 10 guys is a scary prospect when you don't have more than 1500 points on the table

[Hesh Kadesh]

Imperial Fists are definitely not rubbish. Not sure where you've been reading that but in my opinion they have some of the best Legion rules.

 

1+BS with bolter weapons army wide and Tank Hunters for heavy weapon squads.

Let's not mention unique wargear like Eternal Warrior upgrades, storm shields, assault Cannons and Terminators that can Deepstrike.

'Whooo Bolters scary'

'Tank Hunters? Hi there, my name is Graviton Cannon/Nipple Sicaran'

Eternal Warrior for 50pts? Hahahaha

Storm Shield is okay. Lose an attack gain a 3++ Save.

Assault Cannons? Compared to Plas Blasters?

Teleporting Terminators; one good thing. If only other legions didn't do it better.

 

Rite of War sucks, because you want to be static, but cannot move. You want to be in combat, but cannot get there. Get bonuses for charging but lose the actual bonus you took the list for.

 

Templars kill MEQ. In a game designed around killing MEQ's. They're super veterans, when Veterans and Terminators are fine

 

Warders Flatout suck. Maybe ZM, but rumours suggest they lose their bonus initiative for weapon skill. How useful WS5 Breachers would be when no dedicated assault unit is going to waste time on them. So yet another unit that can kill scubs effectively.

 

Sigismund is the best bar none, but once you start making the changes to your list to run him, a Budget praetor can do what he is doing for far less. Save 75pts, and take a Praetor Paragon, Boarding Shield, Digi Weapons, Meltabomb.

 

Polux; Grants Deep Strike, Budget praetor cost, Superfist with decent reliable ID-able attack. One good option.

 

Dorn; average to good. Improved with I4. Budget Primarch.

 

Orbital Strike gains no particular bonuses, as you can already DS Terms, and Polux grants a DS. Between that, Dreadnoughts and Fast Attack Dreadclaws, no need to run OA ever.

 

Angels Descent and Armoured Spearhead suck like hoover regardless of legion. Leaves DSing Termi combi Plasma Spam as IF Pride of the Legion as the final option, while Medusa, Grav, Dreads and maybe Podded Dorn make the difference.

 

Not checked the new rites, but i think that the IF got a bit shafted in their new unique, but only via rumours.

 

They are nothing special, and at worst downright suck when other legions are played to their ability

[Slips]

While this is a tactica, Hesh, one should also keep in mind what they find fun vs what others find fun.

 

I mean, rant on a Legion not being strong all you want but you also have to consider that maybe its just not the legion for you since you have a very specific playstyle.

 

So, spam Grav all you want thats fair and all its just that, with how strongly you're shoving that idea that Grav is the be-all-end-all down peoples throats, you also immediately push away others since you're essentially saying "If you're not using Grav, you're bad". At the same time, you're also shifting the perception of the unit as being the "Beardy" Option because of how hard you push Graviton; something people were trying to get away from in 40k with its Near-Reliance on Grav Weapons.

 

Not winning any points there. Show people the Options they have at their disposal; not your auto-include selection.

 

Then, you have Playstye.

 

People choose the Legions they choose for a Reason. If everybody was going for "Balls-to-the-wall" competitive, you'd only see the same Legions on the Forums.

 

But you dont.

 

So espouse mobility and alpha strike potential all you want, some people, especially those who play Legions like the Imperial Fists, Death Guard, Iron Warriors, Iron Hands and others that are similar  probably dont care what you have to say on the subject since its not a playstyle they're after.

 

I for one, dont give a damn about Alpha Strike / Drop Lists and will never play one because I find them boring as sin to play. I'll DS terminators here and there but thats about it.

 

So bring up the subject, sure, but dont be surprised when people tell you its not what they care about.

 

Also, categorically saying a Legion Sucks doesn't win you any points nor are you actually helping anyone; at best, just dont post in the tactica if you aren't going to provide anything constructive beyond that.

 

There's also helping people make an effective list out of what they have/want. Only the vast minority in 30k are there to make uber-competitive lists. Most just want to have a collection they can be proud of and will give them good, fun games between them and their opponent.

 

Telling them the units they want to use suck by your own personal metrics isn't something they're likely to care about and also creates a negative bias towards you.

 

I'd also like to know how you're losing an attack with Storm Shield Terminators since they weren't getting +1A for 2CCW anyways? On an IC, sure but Generic Terminators? You weren't getting +1A for having Weapon + Combi-Bolter anyways.

[Ishagu]

If we're talking about min/max combinations, surely the best units are generic and available to all Legions, hence the Legion you chose is almost irrelevant?

 

Imperial Fists function very well, with traits that you'll make use of in all games without even having to play a certain build.

 

They'll win in challenges, they can get Termies across the board without the need of a transport or restrictive RoW, and their infantry shoot better. All that seems good to me.

[Sevatar]

 

Imperial Fists are definitely not rubbish. Not sure where you've been reading that but in my opinion they have some of the best Legion rules.

 

1+BS with bolter weapons army wide and Tank Hunters for heavy weapon squads.

Let's not mention unique wargear like Eternal Warrior upgrades, storm shields, assault Cannons and Terminators that can Deepstrike.

'Whooo Bolters scary'

'Tank Hunters? Hi there, my name is Graviton Cannon/Nipple Sicaran'

Eternal Warrior for 50pts? Hahahaha

Storm Shield is okay. Lose an attack gain a 3++ Save.

Assault Cannons? Compared to Plas Blasters?

Teleporting Terminators; one good thing. If only other legions didn't do it better.

 

Rite of War sucks, because you want to be static, but cannot move. You want to be in combat, but cannot get there. Get bonuses for charging but lose the actual bonus you took the list for.

 

Templars kill MEQ. In a game designed around killing MEQ's. They're super veterans, when Veterans and Terminators are fine

 

Warders Flatout suck. Maybe ZM, but rumours suggest they lose their bonus initiative for weapon skill. How useful WS5 Breachers would be when no dedicated assault unit is going to waste time on them. So yet another unit that can kill scubs effectively.

 

Sigismund is the best bar none, but once you start making the changes to your list to run him, a Budget praetor can do what he is doing for far less. Save 75pts, and take a Praetor Paragon, Boarding Shield, Digi Weapons, Meltabomb.

 

Polux; Grants Deep Strike, Budget praetor cost, Superfist with decent reliable ID-able attack. One good option.

 

Dorn; average to good. Improved with I4. Budget Primarch.

 

Orbital Strike gains no particular bonuses, as you can already DS Terms, and Polux grants a DS. Between that, Dreadnoughts and Fast Attack Dreadclaws, no need to run OA ever.

 

Angels Descent and Armoured Spearhead suck like hoover regardless of legion. Leaves DSing Termi combi Plasma Spam as IF Pride of the Legion as the final option, while Medusa, Grav, Dreads and maybe Podded Dorn make the difference.

 

Not checked the new rites, but i think that the IF got a bit shafted in their new unique, but only via rumours.

 

They are nothing special, and at worst downright suck when other legions are played to their ability

 

Interesting analysis. What would be your summary of the rules for the Iron Hands then?

[ThatOneMarshal]

 

 

 

Imperial Fists are definitely not rubbish. Not sure where you've been reading that but in my opinion they have some of the best Legion rules.

 

1+BS with bolter weapons army wide and Tank Hunters for heavy weapon squads.

Let's not mention unique wargear like Eternal Warrior upgrades, storm shields, assault Cannons and Terminators that can Deepstrike.

'Whooo Bolters scary'

'Tank Hunters? Hi there, my name is Graviton Cannon/Nipple Sicaran'

Eternal Warrior for 50pts? Hahahaha

Storm Shield is okay. Lose an attack gain a 3++ Save.

Assault Cannons? Compared to Plas Blasters?

Teleporting Terminators; one good thing. If only other legions didn't do it better.

 

Rite of War sucks, because you want to be static, but cannot move. You want to be in combat, but cannot get there. Get bonuses for charging but lose the actual bonus you took the list for.

 

Templars kill MEQ. In a game designed around killing MEQ's. They're super veterans, when Veterans and Terminators are fine

 

Warders Flatout suck. Maybe ZM, but rumours suggest they lose their bonus initiative for weapon skill. How useful WS5 Breachers would be when no dedicated assault unit is going to waste time on them. So yet another unit that can kill scubs effectively.

 

Sigismund is the best bar none, but once you start making the changes to your list to run him, a Budget praetor can do what he is doing for far less. Save 75pts, and take a Praetor Paragon, Boarding Shield, Digi Weapons, Meltabomb.

 

Polux; Grants Deep Strike, Budget praetor cost, Superfist with decent reliable ID-able attack. One good option.

 

Dorn; average to good. Improved with I4. Budget Primarch.

 

Orbital Strike gains no particular bonuses, as you can already DS Terms, and Polux grants a DS. Between that, Dreadnoughts and Fast Attack Dreadclaws, no need to run OA ever.

 

Angels Descent and Armoured Spearhead suck like hoover regardless of legion. Leaves DSing Termi combi Plasma Spam as IF Pride of the Legion as the final option, while Medusa, Grav, Dreads and maybe Podded Dorn make the difference.

 

Not checked the new rites, but i think that the IF got a bit shafted in their new unique, but only via rumours.

 

They are nothing special, and at worst downright suck when other legions are played to their ability

Interesting analysis. What would be your summary of the rules for the Iron Hands then?

Spoiler alert: he don't like them much either :D. I would take that question to the iron hands thread anyway.

 

@brother Carn, now here's a base question, do you need to be powerful to have fun? I would imagine in a cutthroat meta like Heshes you gotta have a powerful army to win because his metas so competitive, thus he finds that the emperors Finest to be lacking. However if you do not find yourself in a meta similar to his then I encourage you to try them out for the Imperial Fists in quite a few metas can handle themselves. If I am correct you play Templars? I do as well and we both know that compared to the rest of the 7th edition chapter tactics ours lack because we aren't OP. If that didn't stop you then this shouldn't either.

 

Now for actual tactics, one of the good things about the imperial fists is that they don't really have an inherit drawback trait that forces them into a particular play style. For example, he blood angels and Raven Guard can never run an armored spearhead because they come with the drawback of having more infantry than vehicles. The fists don't have that, one of their coolest options is to grab prodding the legion. I would primarily take veterans as a core with some termites for backup. Giving the sniper special rule to the vets helps out a lot and actually allows you to use on of your buffs. BS 5 sniper shots are no laughing matter especially if your mechanicum. Give them a rhino and your on your way. As he's had said you also have access to deepstriking termies, grab some nucios for accurate deepstrike and your all good. However I would take the termies for fire support since the earliest they can charge is turn 3.

 

From there you can really choose what direction you want to go really.

Edited February 15, 2016 by ThatOneMarshal

[nefarious squirrel]

If i may add to this conversation: Imperial Fists are good vanilla marines. If you want that bolter totting chain sword weilding vibe that used to be in so many old school pictures from white dwarf, there for you.

 

And with tactics, doesnt matter how good your deep striking fear inducing death machine is, if you cant use it properly or your opponent cant its dead weight.

 

First win the fire fight!

[noigrim]

Outside fluff reasons now it's a bit pointless taking Sigismund since Dorn now makes the same things than him and better

[ThatOneMarshal]

Outside fluff reasons now it's a bit pointless taking Sigismund since Dorn now makes the same things than him and better

I mean why have one close combat monster when you can have TWO close combat monsters. Also you now have three more troops choices to choose from.

[Brother Carn]

...

 

 

Thanks for a harsh, but surely an adequate, analyse. 

 

....

 

 

 

....

 

 

I think we should remember, as you say Slipstream, that we are all here for the fun of it, just that we think differently what is "fun". Some people want to play a heavy competitive game, and in the other spectrum, some who wants just a good looking army. I am in the middle of that, good looking but still highly playable.

 

I do not want my questions to start a flame-war here

 

 

 

....

 

Thanks for the answer! It is true, Black Templars are far from top tir, but with proper gaming and ZEAL they work kinda well in an friendly environment, wouldn't take them to a high level tournament. The same for a possible 30k army, needs to work properly, but they do not need to be "top tournament good". 

 

But if we continue the IF path for a while, swap the breacher for veterans and rhinos. Should I go full 10 man squads with 2 special weapons, or 5-9 + Apothecary? The good part with vets over breacher is that I don´t need to loot 25 shields... 

Edited February 15, 2016 by Brother Carn

[MakoBoy88]

Ok so was making some Imperial Fists for a friend and trying to use Sigismund/ Polux or both. Terminators. And using the Rites of War. And am coming across stumbling blocks.

 

So, let me lay this down.

 

 

If you use Stone Gauntlet, you can't Deepstrike which makes Polux less useful, and you have to spend a bucket of points on Breachers as troops. Which she isn't a massive fan of and I can't disagree with her. So that makes it then difficult to make the best of both of them. BUT you get T5 Breachers and Phalanx Wardens and Terminators, no?

 

If you use the NEW RoW, everything has to Deepstrike. Which is great for terminators and Polux, BUT, vehicles have to come in from reserves right? So Sigismund either has to DS with termies too (which I'm not sure he can) or comes in with a Spartan, right at the back? So useless.

 

And not using a RoW, which is fine as I could use Pride to make Termies troops, as Sigismund also makes Templars troops so can mix it up for her, but this doesn't really yield much in the way of benefits?

 

Anyone help me out. Slips?

[Ishagu]

I can answer this one.

Don't let Rites of War or perceived benefits dictate the list you want to make.

 

I run a standard Age of Darkness detachment for almost all 30k games. It's the most flexible for the units I want to include.

 

A lot of the time the RoW provide benefits to simply offset the fact you might not be able to capitalise on strong combinations of units.

[MakoBoy88]

That's certainly true. Not taking a RoW, or even Pride, would let her do the list she wants to do.

[Slips]

Just exactly what is the driving factor behind your friend wanting to play Imperial Fists?

 

Because Imperial Fists have no actual downsides to them, you can easily play No-Rite and have it not adversely affect you in any way.

 

I Personally Default to Pride of the Legion with 2x10 Sniper Tac Vets w/ 2 Heavy Bolters and Deepstriking Terminators w/ Dreads and Tanks + Storm Shield'd Tartaros In a Spartan with attached HQs.

 

I will also occasionally rune Rite-less and go full Black Templar and run Templar Bros in a Spartan w/ Siggy with a 2nd unit of Templar in a LR Phobos with supporting elements.

 

Also, think of the new RoW as a Less Restrictive Orbital Assault that doesnt force you to take Pods.

Edited February 16, 2016 by Slipstreams

[MakoBoy88]

Well she picked up a 30k legion based on her other half playing SoH, and loves Sigimund in the fluff. She has also fallen for Polux and wants to use both in a 3k list. And you can't tell her no >.< haha.

 

We have looked at

 

Sigismund in a Spartan with Termies with SS and various weapons.

 

Polux in a similar unit but deep striking instead of a Spartan.

 

Then a unit of vets in a Rhino.

 

Contemptor with duel fists and Grav on foot.

 

Contemptor Mortis with duel Kheres.

 

6 Lascannon lads

 

Vindicator

 

Leviathan with drill and grab bombard.

[MakoBoy88]

+++ New Legion IF (3000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Alexis Polux [Master of the Legion]

 

Sigismund

····Master of the Legion [Pride of the Legion]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Terminator Squad [Chainfist, 5x Legion Terminators, 3x Power Fist, Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Thunderhammer, 5x Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

····Legion Spartan Assault Tank [Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield]

····Legion Terminator Sergeant [Thunderhammer, Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

 

Legion Terminator Squad [Chainfist, 6x Legion Terminators, 4x Power Fist, Teleportation Transponder, Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Thunderhammer, 6x Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

····Legion Terminator Sergeant [Thunderhammer, Vigil Pattern Storm Shield]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 4x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Melta Bombs, Melta Gun, Outflank]

····Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 4x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Melta Bombs, Melta Gun, Outflank]

····Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Power Fist]

 

+ Elites +

 

Contemptor Dreadnought Talon

····Legion Contemptor Dreadnought [Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon with inbuilt twin-linked Bolter, 2x Graviton Gun]

 

Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought [Two Kheres Pattern Assault Cannons]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Heavy Support Squad [Lascannons, 4x Legion Space Marines]

····Legion Sergeant [Augury Scanner]

 

Legion Vindicator [Machine Spirit, Twin-Linked Bolter]

 

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought Talon

····Leviathan Siege Dreadnought [Armoured Ceramite, Grav-flux Bombard]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [VII: Imperial Fists]