[HH1.0] Imperial Fists Tactics

[AfroCampbell]

What do people think of the newest ROW with the new updates to the rules? 

have they changed people's thoughts around using the Teleportation ROW? :D 

 

I am curious about this, I think outflanking Vets with Vox's allowing no-scatter for Teleporting Siggy+Termies ..... bring in the blinding stunning flashlights and shrouded :D 

[Slips]

Nope. I still hate it.

 

And theres literally no point in Teleporting Sigismund in with the RoW since he'd have to sit there doing nothing for a turn but get shot by LITERALLY EVERYTHING your opponent has because Its Sigismund.

 

And Blind vs MEQ is a marginal threat at best. You fail them from time to time but its not all that common.

Edited August 2, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Lord Blackwood]

thats been round since book 6 

Slips did some testing , As did I  

The RoW  is pretty much garbage ( and i hate to say that ) 

The issue with deep striking things you want to assault with is that they sit there for a turn NOT ASSAULTING   

Which means your opponent can turn around and blow them up or failing that get away from them.  ( Tho its more common that your unit will just get blown off the board.)  

Also the example you present has its own problems 

Outflanking Vets ( In Reserves ) 
Sigismund + Terminators  ( around 500 +  points depending on upgrades  In Reserves ) 


Slips sorta made the case that if yer gonna run the rite it would pay to teleport in , shooty hard to shift units not assault ones  and I am inclined to agree 

Unfortunately I  dont think the Rite is terribly competitive or even fun to play , I found it was more frustrating than anything else. 


If you want to deepstrike Sigismund  + Terminators Id suggest doing the whole hyper dreadclaw  like the big one that starts with a K  


Edit:  Also for clarity im not trying to piss in yer ceral or anything Afro , nor am I  saying you shouldnt give it a try , Im just saying that the reports weve got here about the rites use is bad , I dont want you to think im being aggressive or intentionally provoking you into an argument or nothing. 
 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Bladewolf

[AfroCampbell]

Na that is cool, I totally see how that would work poorly.

 

I kinda just am trying to think up fresh ideas for IF but yea not the best.

 

How does Stone Gauntlet change with the points changes???

Are breachers still kind of not up to scratch compared to better options?

 

I'm curious if people like this ROW, and if so do you minimise the number of breachers or maximise?

Also do you prefer Phalanx Warders instead?

[Slips]

Seeing as you can't take Warders as compulsory troops for TSG, unless you want more breachers, then not really.

 

My main issue with Warders is that their role seems even more confused now than it was before after we clued into the fact that they were uber-ZM breachers due to +1I. With +1WS it gives you the impression that they're a CC Unit, which they kinda are, but aren't very good at it with 1 Base Attack and only being at their best when charged. Why don't they have Counter-Attack at the very least or 2 Attacks since these are Veteran Breachers? On the bright side, you can perform some pretty hilarious shenanigans with the option for 1in5 Breaching Charges and 1 on the Sarge. 3 S8 AP2 Small Blasts at I4 in CC can be devastating.

 

Otherwise, the unit has the potential but it's just small things coupled with their cost that make them "meh".

 

I'm pretty much firmly in the Pride/Primarchs Chosen/No-Rite camp due to how I usually build my lists and which characters I include.

[AfroCampbell]

Seeing as you can't take Warders as compulsory troops for TSG, unless you want more breachers, then not really.

 

My main issue with Warders is that their role seems even more confused now than it was before after we clued into the fact that they were uber-ZM breachers due to +1I. With +1WS it gives you the impression that they're a CC Unit, which they kinda are, but aren't very good at it with 1 Base Attack and only being at their best when charged. Why don't they have Counter-Attack at the very least or 2 Attacks since these are Veteran Breachers? On the bright side, you can perform some pretty hilarious shenanigans with the option for 1in5 Breaching Charges and 1 on the Sarge. 3 S8 AP2 Small Blasts at I4 in CC can be devastating.

 

Otherwise, the unit has the potential but it's just small things coupled with their cost that make them "meh".

 

I'm pretty much firmly in the Pride/Primarchs Chosen/No-Rite camp due to how I usually build my lists and which characters I include.

 

its funny, I have been away from 30k for a bit, but was reading the updates today and last night, and I felt out of all of the units they could have really fixed stuff with, they  were the biggest wasted opportunity.

sigh, I really love the models.... but I agree about the rules being very confusing.

[The Traitor]

As someone who plays against stone gauntlet list freaquently now, I can say that T5 is hard for tacticals or other bolter equipped units, wounding on 5+ makes your attacks much more inefficient. Of course, Warders are still expensive and a weird unit, but they do ok when shooting a couple of plasmas and soaking charges. Also, apothecaries work very well in stone gauntlet units, as denying fnp requires strenght 10, which isn't that common and you usually don't want to spend on breachers. The last thing that I find good about this is that if you bring in a line of 30 or 40 bodies with boarding shields it's very easy to hide other marines behind, which probably is worse that paying an adequate transport for the unit that would stay hidden but works kind of fine if you don't have the models or the points.

[AfroCampbell]

As someone who plays against stone gauntlet list freaquently now, I can say that T5 is hard for tacticals or other bolter equipped units, wounding on 5+ makes your attacks much more inefficient. Of course, Warders are still expensive and a weird unit, but they do ok when shooting a couple of plasmas and soaking charges. Also, apothecaries work very well in stone gauntlet units, as denying fnp requires strenght 10, which isn't that common and you usually don't want to spend on breachers. The last thing that I find good about this is that if you bring in a line of 30 or 40 bodies with boarding shields it's very easy to hide other marines behind, which probably is worse that paying an adequate transport for the unit that would stay hidden but works kind of fine if you don't have the models or the points.

 

Yea true.

with the new update though, there is very little reason why you would want to pick warders over standard Breachers though if just trying to fulfill the base 10man squad requirement..... probably not quite true if increasing the number of men in the unit.

[Flint13]

The Imperial Fists do seem to operate really similarly to Night Lords in that, while there are other Rites than Stone Gauntlet that you could consider... they aren't Stone Gauntlet.

 

Also, as a non-Imperial Fist player, I agree with Slips. I would indeed shoot literally everything at a deepstriking Sigismund. We have bad history. 

[Tiger9gamer]

so, I played iron hands for a while and kept getting crushed by iron warriors until I switched to imperial fists for a game to try it out. I was surprised at how effective pride of the legion was with sniper vets! I'm thinking about switching legions again, but I wanna ask what advantages the Imperial fists have over the iron hands, and disadvantages.

[Lord Blackwood]

So my Falchion is offical D:  Finished up the agreement today 

= u =  the 775th got a new toy 

Which when you think about it makes sense as we get closer to the siege. 

I am actually surprised at how easily I can fit it into a list and still take  a good bit of other stuff 

Even with its vehicle shut down upgrade its still  50 points less than how I like to run my glaive , funny thing that huh D:  


I think  to tie this in to the current conversation that its part of the strength of Imperial fists that they can work without a Rite but still have solid characters like Sigismund and Pollux D:   

As well as the option for solid ( if expensive )  terminators with the shields and hammerinos 

[Flint13]

so, I played iron hands for a while and kept getting crushed by iron warriors until I switched to imperial fists for a game to try it out. I was surprised at how effective pride of the legion was with sniper vets! I'm thinking about switching legions again, but I wanna ask what advantages the Imperial fists have over the iron hands, and disadvantages.

Sniper vets are an amazing tool in the toolbox since they can effectively tackle such a wide range of opponents, with no loss in potency against any of them. 

 

Especially b/c they are pretty great at killing Castellax and Castellax-esque robits, which is something a legion typically struggles with. But then they can turn their bolters on a militia dogpile just as effectively. 

[Tiger9gamer]

 

so, I played iron hands for a while and kept getting crushed by iron warriors until I switched to imperial fists for a game to try it out. I was surprised at how effective pride of the legion was with sniper vets! I'm thinking about switching legions again, but I wanna ask what advantages the Imperial fists have over the iron hands, and disadvantages.

Sniper vets are an amazing tool in the toolbox since they can effectively tackle such a wide range of opponents, with no loss in potency against any of them. 

 

Especially b/c they are pretty great at killing Castellax and Castellax-esque robits, which is something a legion typically struggles with. But then they can turn their bolters on a militia dogpile just as effectively. 

 

Oh, definatly. my opponent took the preavian with two castellax and I unloaded two squads into it, murdering the two bots completely! It was pretty awesome.

 

Buuuut I have a strange problem with anti-tank and I think I really need help with that. I took my usual two POTMS Vindicators but those got popped and all I had left was some missile javelins. Is there any other tough anti-tank that won't break the points bank?

[Flint13]

My go to for the legion is a Sicaran Venator. 

 

They're only 200-ish points and punch way above their weight. They can consistently threaten flareshielded spartans and are invaluable at stun-locking Typhons, Warhounds and anything else with nasty templates you want to see the absolute minimum of. 

[Tiger9gamer]

My go to for the legion is a Sicaran Venator. 

 

They're only 200-ish points and punch way above their weight. They can consistently threaten flareshielded spartans and are invaluable at stun-locking Typhons, Warhounds and anything else with nasty templates you want to see the absolute minimum of. 

 

that is a pretty good choice I must admit. A little steep in price but good. Have you tried the laser destroyer vindicators at all too? I'm interested in those because I may be able to convert one of them  )

 

 

Also, another side topic: Do you use special weapons for the vets squads? or do you just use bolters? 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Tiger9gamer

[Flint13]

I like laser destroyer vindicators, especially since they're budget priced, but their big issue for me is that flare shields absolutely neuter them. While knocking the Venator down to Str9 isn't ideal it can still reliably damage Spartans.

 

3/4 of the Astartes armies I regularly face have Spartans and there are two Solar Aux players in my gaming posse, so flare shields abound. What you face on the reg may differ, so I could see getting more use out of them if you're not seeing as many AV14 flareshields as I am.   

 

Another thing you might want to take a look at that's more in-line with the Vindicator's points cost are legion medusas. The legion medusae squad aren't quite as awesome as the Ordo Reductor version, but still very handy. You've got Str10Ap2 ordinance that is ignoring flare shields and can take on a variety of targets instead of heavy armor. A laser vindicator isn't going to make much of a dent in a marine squad, but a 5" pie plate defs will.

 

Again, very good multi-purpose tool to have in the tool box, and one that can hit a wide range of targets effectively without sacrificing potency for any. 

 

As for vets, I'm a fan of keeping them pretty cheap. If heavy bolters were a little cheaper, they'd be a shoo-in, but at 20pts, I suppose it could be worse. I've seen flamers argued as well for a defensive weapon, but again 10/15pts for (heavy)flamers seems like a bit too much of a points investment especially when you're trading in your bolter, and thus reducing their key selling point of rending firepower.

 

10 of them with a Rhino and a Sgt with artificer armor is only 205pts.  

[Tiger9gamer]

I like laser destroyer vindicators, especially since they're budget priced, but their big issue for me is that flare shields absolutely neuter them. While knocking the Venator down to Str9 isn't ideal it can still reliably damage Spartans.

 

3/4 of the Astartes armies I regularly face have Spartans and there are two Solar Aux players in my gaming posse, so flare shields abound. What you face on the reg may differ, so I could see getting more use out of them if you're not seeing as many AV14 flareshields as I am.   

 

Another thing you might want to take a look at that's more in-line with the Vindicator's points cost are legion medusas. The legion medusae squad aren't quite as awesome as the Ordo Reductor version, but still very handy. You've got Str10Ap2 ordinance that is ignoring flare shields and can take on a variety of targets instead of heavy armor. A laser vindicator isn't going to make much of a dent in a marine squad, but a 5" pie plate defs will.

 

Again, very good multi-purpose tool to have in the tool box, and one that can hit a wide range of targets effectively without sacrificing potency for any. 

 

As for vets, I'm a fan of keeping them pretty cheap. If heavy bolters were a little cheaper, they'd be a shoo-in, but at 20pts, I suppose it could be worse. I've seen flamers argued as well for a defensive weapon, but again 10/15pts for (heavy)flamers seems like a bit too much of a points investment especially when you're trading in your bolter, and thus reducing their key selling point of rending firepower.

 

10 of them with a Rhino and a Sgt with artificer armor is only 205pts.  

 

 

I was actually thinking about making a few medusas that would bridge between ordo reductor and legion, so that would be effective like you said. I know that I quake in my boots every time I play against a medusa when I'm fighting against iron warriors, so it would be a good scary target to threaten people with. The only problem is that I keep running out of heavy support slots to fit in my vindicators, scorpious and predators to play with too. 

 

What's the options outside of heavy support if I may ask? I tried javelins but they can barely scratch AV 14 and 13.

 

Also, you bring up a valid point for the heavy bolters. it's really just 2 extra shots for 40 points in a squad that's already hurting a lot of targets. I Think I would like to run my squads with bolters and a seargent that's loaded with arti-armor and a power weapon.

[Slips]

Do note that, if your vets are going to charge, they're using their Bolt Pistols. However, heavy bolters with suspensors can be fired as assault weapons meaning they always fire 3 Shots even on foot and on the move.

[Flint13]

 

**Snip**

 

What's the options outside of heavy support if I may ask? I tried javelins but they can barely scratch AV 14 and 13.

 

Well if you want heavy duty anti-armor outside of the heavy support slot, you've always got Primaris-Lightnings with kraken penetrators. They will pretty much point-and-click delete anything short of a super heavy the turn they come on. Four Kraken will knock a substantial chunk out of a super heavy tank as well, but don't rely on them killing it in a single round or getting more than one useful round out of it. Pretty much any time it spends alive past that first "UNLEASH THE KRAKEN (penetrators)!" stage when it flies on should essentially be considered a pleasant bonus. 

 

Actually, they make awesome anti-medium armor tools as well. Batteries of tank hunting autocannons are no slouch at downing other aircraft and anything on the ground, short of a land raider (especially if you angle craftily to nip at side/rear armor). Regardless, just be sure to keep them well out of the fire arcs of any intercepting Mechanicum or Deredeos. Primaris-Lightnings only have 2HP @ AV11 at best. 

 

 

 

Also, you bring up a valid point for the heavy bolters. it's really just 2 extra shots for 40 points in a squad that's already hurting a lot of targets. I Think I would like to run my squads with bolters and a seargent that's loaded with arti-armor and a power weapon.

 

 

That's my thinking exactly. You aren't really concerned with the slightly better strength and AP, since you're wounding on 4+ regardless and everything rends the same.

 

I like the idea of scattering a few combi-flamers in there for a fun surprise for anyone charging you, but I wouldn't spend any more than maybe 1 in 3 or so. 

 

 

 

Slipstreams, on 02 Aug 2016 - 5:35 PM, said:

Do note that, if your vets are going to charge, they're using their Bolt Pistols. However, heavy bolters with suspensors can be fired as assault weapons meaning they always fire 3 Shots even on foot and on the move.

 

 

I wouldn't charge with vets that aren't World Eaters. They don't rend in close combat. 

Edited August 2, 2016 by Flint13

[Slips]

Well, heres the thing. Sometimes, being in combat is better than getting shot by, say, an Iron Warriors Medusa.

 

Its also usually better to get the charge than get charged.

[Tiger9gamer]

Well, heres the thing. Sometimes, being in combat is better than getting shot by, say, an Iron Warriors Medusa.

 

Its also usually better to get the charge than get charged.

I gotta agree there. I was surprised at how many attacks they put out on the charge! I think that maybe a power axe is mandatory on all serges though if they have to call challanges.

[Lord Blackwood]

I have to eccho the love for the Sicarian Venator  for 190 points you get a FAST  tough two shot weapon that can stunlock even super heavies and blow up other threats. 

In my heavy armored lists they  do a great job of getting around  to the side of the enemy anti tank , and blowing a hole straight through it.  They ARE that good  and with the raise in price  of their sister battle tanks  I find they compete quite well for slots in my lists  

[Terminus]

 ALL THE THINGS!!!11!1![ aren't quite as awesome as the Ordo Reductor version

 

As for vets, I'm a fan of keeping them pretty cheap. If heavy bolters were a little cheaper, they'd be a shoo-in, but at 20pts, I suppose it could be worse. I've seen flamers argued as well for a defensive weapon, but again 10/15pts for (heavy)flamers seems like a bit too much of a points investment especially when you're trading in your bolter, and thus reducing their key selling point of rending firepower.

 

10 of them with a Rhino and a Sgt with artificer armor is only 205pts.  

Fixed that for you.

 

I too feel the anguish of the cost to upgrade weapons for Veterans, but I'm super attached to my missile launchers even at 50 points for the pair. The Dark Angels stasis missiles make me totes jelly.

[Flint13]

^I mean, I totally agree... but they're inferior biologicals. They're doing their best :lol:

[K3nn3rs]

Following the significant points drop has anyone had the chance to re-evaluate assault marines now?

 

I think a squad of 15 with combat shields (mainly because they look cool but would still give a edge in terms of survivability), a support apothecary with a power sword, 2 power axes and a vet sergeant with, artificer armour , a power fist and melta bombs would provide either a useful counter attack squad for a gun line army or something that could threaten the enemies back field.

 

 

What (if any) character would you use to support them? Chaplain with artificer armour/ solarite power gauntlet?

 

Or do you think that their are other options that do the same job better/ cheaper?