Lord Blackwood Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 So who's thinking of using sword master veterans with sigismund in a dreadclaw vs Templar brethren ? What are the benefits of either set up. How do you think you can make one or the other work ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 I guess the advantages of vets is that they have more shooting options and can have other weapons instead of just swords, supplementing a charge with combi melta/flamer. They lack the defensive ability of the Templars however, who have 2+ and can get the invuln from combat Shields. Both units can have an apothecary now which is sweet. Knowing the new book the vets are probably cheaper too. Vets also get Melta bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) Templar also have Access to Melta Bombs AND have Furious Charge. The only real thing Vets have over Templar is Power Axes, shooting and Cost. Edited July 20, 2016 by Slipstreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 So you reckon Templar brethren are still superior even with the cost differential due to defensive ability and having furious charge? Good I didint wanna build melee vets XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 20, 2016 Author Share Posted July 20, 2016 (edited) So you reckon Templar brethren are still superior even with the cost differential due to defensive ability and having furious charge? Good I didint wanna build melee vets XD To me? Yes. Lets do some quick mathhammer: If the Templar get the Charge: 36 S5 Ap3 Power Sword attacks hitting on 4s deals 12 unsaved wounds on average to an MEQ squad without FNP 4 S9 Ap1 Sol Glove attacks hitting on 4s deals 1.67 unsaved wounds on average. If the Vets get the Charge: 36 S5 Ap2 Unwieldy attacks hitting on 4s deals 8 Unsaved Wounds after accounting for the Templars 5++ 3 S8 Ap2 Power Fist attacks hitting on 4s deals 0.833 unsaved wounds after accounting for the Templars 5++ If the Templar are the ones getting charged, they deal, on average 6.75 unsaved wounds before any of the Power Axes/Fists get to swing. Rounding that up to 7 dead on average, the remaining 3 vets (sarge in a challenge + 2 dudes) get to deal: 1.778 or 2 unsaved wounds back from the power axes. The Vet Sarge then deals 0.833 wounds to the Templar Champion who, in return, deals 1.25. On average, the Templar Champ would win thanks to his combat shield invulnerable. So, due to the vets having a 3+ armour save and Unwieldy Ap2 Weapons, the templar would pretty much beat them in most scenarios whether or not they get charged. Edited July 20, 2016 by Slipstreams Castellan Michael 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Thanks slips. Looks like I'll stick with the boys when I get my dreadclaw built and painted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 ^Secondary small but important bonus for the Templar over the vets: That Sol glove (while continuing to be infinitely superior to a power fist) is also on a 2 wound model. So much better chance of living through a challenge to use it. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Yeah I'm still planning to run my TB and that mark of armor is too cool. Flint13 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 ^Right? I love how bulky and solid it looks with the huge Templar armored tabard things. BLACK BLΠFLY 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 Templars are superior in CC, but I still think vets are better overall as you can kit them with power weapons but still are effective at shooting. I would even consider sniper outflanking vets with some power weapons to be able to shoot the crap out of a marine unit when they arrive and charge something in the next turn (also with BS5 IF get the best out of vets without combi weapons). On the other side templars can arrive on turn one, meaning a turn two charge and are more orientated in dealing with elite units, so I suppose the simply fill different roles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 20, 2016 Share Posted July 20, 2016 TB have the invul going for them too. Sure Vets are more versatile but I think their new veteran skills will see the basic builds more individualized over jack of all trades . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Sniper vets are indeed silly versatile. Just 10 bolt guns that wound on 4+ with mini-rend is so spectacular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Makes those betrayal at calth purchases feel even more justified XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 BS5 Sniper Bolters. Whats not to love? Castellan Michael and BLACK BLΠFLY 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 BS5 Sniper Bolters. Whats not to love? Lets not forget a very important part: BS5 Sniper Bolters that outflank. For me that is quite important, as you're saving points from a transport that you can spend... Well, in more vets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 (edited) I honestly wonder why you wouldnt buy the cheap metal box that is the rhino for them automatically every time if youre using sniper vets. Being immune to other bolters before you disembark is very much worth it. Edited July 21, 2016 by Slipstreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 If you outflank, can you move on 6" then disembark 6" then shoot all in the same turn? If so, then its a Rhi-NO-BRAINER. exsanguis, AfroCampbell and DietOfLiquor 3 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flint13 Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 I have been a huge fan of the addition of outflank to the previously most popular veteran skill. So have my Castellax, Thanatar and Thallaxi, since Cyber-Ocullari give them interceptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 I have been a huge fan of the addition of outflank to the previously most popular veteran skill. So have my Castellax, Thanatar and Thallaxi, since Cyber-Ocullari give them interceptor. When someone ignores the obvious, especially when you warn them, some results are to be expected :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted July 21, 2016 Share Posted July 21, 2016 Personally I'm not a great fan of rhinos, being a player that usually plays agaist 40k with 40k rules (which means maelstrom) rhinos end up giving victory points to my opponent to easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted July 21, 2016 Author Share Posted July 21, 2016 Personally I'm not a great fan of rhinos, being a player that usually plays agaist 40k with 40k rules (which means maelstrom) rhinos end up giving victory points to my opponent to easily. Therein lies the crux of the problem, really. Though I am curious that you'd rather walk the vets onto the board from reserves and subject them to Tau Interceptor in this fashion if you do play vs 40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Traitor Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Personally I'm not a great fan of rhinos, being a player that usually plays agaist 40k with 40k rules (which means maelstrom) rhinos end up giving victory points to my opponent to easily. Therein lies the crux of the problem, really. Though I am curious that you'd rather walk the vets onto the board from reserves and subject them to Tau Interceptor in this fashion if you do play vs 40k. Well, actually, I played against tau last week and got a whole veteran squad blown up because of interception so you sure have a point there! That said playing against interceptor heavy tau is not that usual and next time I can assure you I'll be footsloging... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thousand Eyes Posted July 27, 2016 Share Posted July 27, 2016 Finally read through all of this thread, over the course of a weeks worth of lunch times. Lots of interesting stuff here, cheers for sharing all. ^Right? I love how bulky and solid it looks with the huge Templar armored tabard things. Did I miss them getting new models? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soldier of Dorn Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 So I'm real close to finishing up a preliminary 1850 point list (read: having built all of these models except the seekers), and though I know some of it's pretty derpy (the Terminator squad, f'rex, is a bit of a point sink but that's something i wanna keep) I'm looking for what I should add to turn it into a proper 2500-3000 list. Imperial Fists 284th Storm Battalion 1850 points Legiones Astartes: Imperial Fists (Rite of War: Pride of the Legion), Primary Detachment, 1841 points. HQ Captain Lynden Huss: 165 points Legion Praetor with combi-weapon, solarite power gauntlet, melta bombs, iron halo. Elites Justici Reynault Zahn: 195 points Legion Contemptor Dreadnought with chainfist with heavy flamer, multi-melta. Troops I Tactical: 185 points 13 Legion Tactical Marines. Legion Tactical Marine with Legion vexilla. Legion Tactical Marine Sergeant. I Grenadier: 260 points 5 Legion Veteran Space Marines. Legion Veteran Space Marine with nuncio-vox. Legion Veteran Space Marine with Legion vexilla. Legion Veteran Space Marine with melta-gun. Legion Veteran Space Marine with heavy bolter and suspensor web. Legion Veteran Sergeant with power weapon. Rhino. I Wallbreaker: 521 points Teleportation transponder. 7 Legion Terminators with chainfist, combi-weapon. Legion Terminator with chainfist, heavy flamer. Legion Terminator with chainfist, Iliastus pattern assault cannon. Legion Terminator Sergeant with chainfist, combi-weapon. Fast Attack I Seeker: 215 points 3 Legion Seeker Space Marines with combi-plasma. Legion Seeker Space Marine with combi-plasma, nuncio-vox. Legion Strike Leader with plasma pistol. Heavy Support Skyfall Squadron: 300 points 2 Legion Vindicator Tanks with armoured ceramite, extra armour. Total: 1841 points One thing I definitely have to cover is anti-air, since I think the list can handle anti-MEQ, anti-TEQ, and anti-tank fairly well. Not stupendously, but fairly well. I also might be worrying unduly since there's exactly one flyer in all the armies I would be playing against (a Caestus) so anti-air might be less of a concern. I'm not real worried about the objective game as of yet, since all of my Infantry units do score in this list, even though they are a bit squishy. I'm thinking that I might have the Veterans (I Grenadier) go Outflank/Sniper, and give the Rhino to the Seekers. Seems like they'd get more use out of it. Things I want to do would be to bump my Vindicator up one tank and get another 15 man Tactical squad for holding backfield objectives, and possibly bump up the Seekers to a full 10 man squad. Beyond that, though, I really don't know. Any ideas? Also, if any of the points values are incorrect, that's my fault. I'm using the new Battlescribe 2.0 Alpha and haven't gone out and gotten the new red books yet. I'll probably be putting in a Forge World order around September-October, so that's when I'll get them. Lord Blackwood 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted July 29, 2016 Share Posted July 29, 2016 Had a game versus Tau last night... My opponent had a solid list but still I almost managed to table him. His dice deserted him early on. AfroCampbell 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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