[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[Dorrance]

I figured I start this thread since no one else has, granted these are mostly my observations since my 30k experience is limited. So please, if you have suggestions post it. I'm still fully building my SOH army is I am by no means the authority on SOH Tactics.

 

First Discussion: Troops Choice Reavers vs Tactical Marines

 

It seems better to take Maloghurst than ROW Black Reaving to have Reavers as troops but are Reavers as Troops better than the 20 man blob of Tacticals with apothecary ?

 

20 tactical marines w. Vox and sergeant w. PW (maximize merciless fighter) and artificer armor for 280

The best tactical load out can be discussed in length but I am just looking for a baseline to compare Reavers

 

Vs

 

15 Reavers w Banestrike Bolters Cheiften w. PW and artificer armor runs 380

 

So for 100 more points you get five less marines, lose the ability to re-roll failed morale but gain outflank and AP 3 Bolters with precision shot.

 

It seems as if instead of replacing Tacticals for Reavers as the troops backbone they do a better job complementing each other on the battlefield. As the Tacticals slogg upfield towards an objective the Reavers come in on what seems to be Turn 2 with the ability to re roll 1 on reserves, to claim a midfield or backfield obj and support your army by getting in their shorter range ap 3 precision shots.

 

What do you guys think? Have you ran purely footslogging Reavers or have you paired Tacticals and Reavers or do you find it better to give them rhinos or assault packs?

 

 

(This post is in pieces because my iPad likes to time out before I post)

Edited June 21, 2014 by Dorrance

[Moonstalker]

Well, first up, Banestrike is not a straight-up AP3 round.  It's more like weak rending, providing Ap3 on 6's to-wound.  Reavers also have an extra attack on their profile (paired with BP/CCW), but for a small points investment your tactical squad can buy CCW's as well.  I'd say that actually makes it a fairer comparison, as it brings their stats and costs closer together.

 

Lack of Vexillas in Reaver squads is also a little offset by what you're doing to take them as troops: Malogurst comes with a standard that provides a Fearless bubble.

 

In the job of bolter-bearing footsloggers, though, I think the tacticals are going to win every time, just from the standpoint of price per guy and the usual FNP from attached apothecary.  More bodies, more bullets, more durability, and Fury of the Legion.

 

Perhaps a better comparison is with the Legion Assault Squad.  IMO, that unit is dreadfully overcosted, but 15 reavers brings more melee attacks (46, 61 on the charge vs 41, 61 on the charge) than a 20 man squad of assault marines, either one is going to need a Primus Medicae with a jump pack to get FNP that can keep up with the squad.  And it does this while being cheaper (400 for the 20 man Assault Squad, 335 for a 15 man Reaver squad with Jump Packs).  And again, it's two units that cannot take Vexillas, so there is more parity there.  For the price difference, you can get 65 points worth of wargear.  Call it four power swords spread among the squad and a powerfist and artificer armor for the Chieftain.  That's certain to make an impression on any power armored squad, probably enough of one to still get your Merciless Fighters attacks at I1 despite probably having a smaller starting size, and then get the opportunity to sweep when you win combat by a mile.

[Massaen]

Also remember fury of the legion is lost on the reavers

[tdemayo]

So, what are the Sons of Horus' strengths?  Looking at their list, without having played them, their legion rules and special units look like they have limited applications:

 

o Rerolling reserves only benefits an army that intends to take reserves.  Even then, since reserves arrive on a 3+ normally, a reroll improves the odds from around 66% to around 88%.  However, the SoH do not gain Scout, Outflank, or Deepstrike as part of their tactics. So this benefit is confined to units that already have some benefit from being deployed from reserve.

 

o The bonus in Assault requires that the SoH both assault, and remain larger than the opponent.  Assault is not all that powerful, overall, in the game, so it seems like like nice bonus for some units, but not especially potent.

 

o Justaerin terminators look absurdly over-priced.

 

o The Reavers have Outflank (?), have extra base attacks, and can take semi-rending bolters.  They could be a useful unit to bring in from reserve.

 

What am I missing?

[Moonstalker]

The first four legions really have some pretty underpowered rules (compare to Iron Hands, who get -1 S to shooting attacks against them, or IF who get +1 BS with bolt weapons, or Sallies who get a free Ld reroll, etc), but at the same time their drawbacks aren't really that steep.  I mean, Bitter Pride.  You can't benefit from Allied Warlord Trait or Ld.  That is incredibly inconsequential.

 

I agree that Merciless Fighters is not as good as it is cracked up to be.  I would actually much rather that SoH tactical squads got a free CCW (they were quite fond of Despoilers, after all) instead.  But it is still pretty awesome.  If you outnumber the enemy by even one model when I1 rolls around, you could be at a big advantage.

 

I think what FW was envisioning was that SoH players would make heavy use of the Orbital Assault and Angel's Wrath RoW to reflect the kind of sudden strike tactics the SoH were fond of.  Crash in from orbit, break the enemy's back in one quick battle, and win the war.  And I think that's what Edge of the Spear is for, making sure you've got 90% of your army on the board on turn 2.  You are also overlooking one of their special units: Dreadclaw Drop Pods.  They can use this WITHOUT using the Orbital Assault RoW, giving several of their units access to a deep striking assault vehicle.

 

Justaerin are overpriced.  They got a price drop in LACAL, but it's not enough.  They aren't alone in being a fluffy but underpowered legion-specific unit, though.

 

 

 

Secretly, I consider running my Luna Wolves with IH rules for better crunch, but I know that I would totally hate myself for doing such a WAAC thing.

[Dorrance]

Hopefully one day Sons of Horus will have pseudo-possesed units....

 

Until then... We get to figure out how to paint green with any gw paints specifically made for that shade... That's why I am playing Sons of Horus.

 

But seriously, fielding the Warmaster himself was enough for me to choose SOH.

[MiR]

Thats why i painted black :)

Abbadon, the Reavers and there 1. Company had already black armor.

 

And i field my Reavers normaly in smaler grps with combi plasma. Either Flanking or dreadclaw deep strike.

There melee potential is alredy there and if they survive one turn i can still put them to use.

[LordFonte]

Yeah, I feel the same way about how the first four legions to get rules got the short end of the stick per say, But as Kitwulfen points out the Edge of the Spear rule does seemingly favor Orbital Assault (Which is what i'm going to do) along with Angel's Wrath, but Orbital Assault basically kill the Merciless Fighter rule as most tactical squads in drop pods will be outnumber as they're only ten unless you use the heavy support slots for Kharybdis assault claw, but then you have view only a few drop pods and almost no "shock and awe" value. that and angels wrath list seemingly get expensive.

 

Hehehe, feel kinda stupid that i only realized why their unique rite of war is called the Black Reaving....

[Ishagu]

After looking at the Legions at some length and discussing them with a friend, the sons of horus are very underpowered in their unique rules, and their unique units are grossly overpriced.

In view of this I don't feel the legion is at all competitive when pitted against an efficient and well geared list from the Iron Hands for example. There are also many unique units in other legions who are very powerful and point efficient. Imperial Fists having BS5 on bolters for example, that is a fantastic rule!

In the regard, you are better of making fun and fluffy SoH lists rather than gearing to be competitive, I feel that Horus is mandatory in bigger games as he makes up for the Legion's naff special rules by giving the whole army +1 leaderships, outflank and also being able to take veteran tacticals as troops and allowing a termie squad to deepstrike with no scatter. Sure, you might want to field a super heavy, but Horus and a Termie squad can destroy it with a combi melta deepstrike....

 

Most people normally bring two HQs anyways, and a well geared Praetor can cost around 250 points...

Edited July 8, 2014 by Ishagu

[Moonstalker]

After looking at the Legions at some length, the sons of horus are very underpowered in their unique rules, and their unique units are grossly overpriced.

 

In view of this I don't feel the legion is at all competitive when pitted against one like the Iron Hands, Iron Warriors and so on.

 

I feel that Horus is mandatory in bigger games as he makes up for the Legion's naff special rules by giving the whole army +1 leaderships, outflank and also being able to take veteran tacticals as troops and allowing a termie squad to deepstrike with no scatter.

 

1. Veteran Tacticals make pretty awful troops, they are expensive and still just T4 W1 3+ bodies.  You are making your army worse by doing this.

2. Deep striking is crazy dangerous in 30k because of the wide availability of augury scanners.  Horus' ability to deep strike in with a massive terminator bodyguard to deliver a decapitating strike at just the right point of the enemy line is thematic and cool, but it could also leave his squad eating a hail of fire because they arrived next to several squads with augury scanners.  Their already fairly low alpha strike potential (ten combiplasmas sounds good, until you realize you've just spent ~400 points buying and delivering them, plus the cost for horus) will be blunted by them eating interceptor fire from your opponent's entire army.

3. +1 Ld is nice, but not reason enough to bring Horus.

4. Outflanking can be nice, especially when combined with Edge of the Spear.  If there is anything that SoH are good at, it's getting their reserves in.  Might get you a surprise charge on a heavy weapons squad tucked away in a corner, or maybe side shots on a Predator squadron or something.  However, it is again risky, as your units might come in on the wrong table edge or (if you commit a lot of units to outflank) your army might get split up around the table and defeated in detail by an enemy who deployed with a denied flank.  Most of the units in a 30k army don't have the mobility to make up for a bad outflank roll.  This is hugely situational, not an automatic boost to your army's effectiveness.  It even comes down to what your opponent is fielding.  If all his vehicles are 14/14/14, is there any point to outflanking an anti-tank hit squad to get side armor shots?

5. Fifth point is basically just that if you're taking Horus you have no other options for LoW.  A Typhon could make up its points in one or two shooting phases, depending on the kind of opportunities you get presented with, and it's a big brick of a tank that can soak up a ton of fire.  In a really big (and competitive) game, a Warhound with two double barreled turbolasers will put out 4 Destroyer shots per turn, enough firepower to break any vehicle squadron or LoW easily.  It wouldn't give a damn about your Spartan's flare shield and armored ceramite, it would just turn it into a heap of slag.  These big killy vehicles are even stronger in 7th edition while assaults are just as bad as they were in 6th.  On top of this, when you commit to Horus you commit to a transport and bodyguard for him.  As discussed earlier, deep strike is insanely dangerous because of just how much fire it exposes you to, so if you're bringing Horus you should be bringing him in a Spartan with a squad of terminators and probably a Primus Medicae.  You're probably talking about 1200 points in this unit and transport.  If you do not at least buy him a Land Raider to cruise around in, you've spent 500 points on a melee character who will not see melee.  Your entire army becomes based around Horus, and you become incredibly reliant on him winning some big assaults to carry you through the game.  That, or the game is large enough that you're trying to catch and kill the enemy Warhound with Horus before it can kill his transport and squad with D blasts.

 

No doubt we've got a bit of the short end of the stick when it comes to our legion rules, but it's not an insurmountable problem.  For instance, after to-wound and armor saves and FNP and everything, that +1 BS that IF get only translates to something like 2% more models killed in a tactical vs tactical firefight.

[Ishagu]

How many of the above super heavies will you see in a 2 - 2.5k game?

[depthcharge12]

Well there were a couple battle reports I had seen of a super compact list that had:

 

Horus

Justaraien squad

Praetor

Spartan

 

Terminators

Land raider

 

Terminators

Land raider

 

 

This list faced off against 4 riptides and additional tau support and beat them quite handily despite the amounts of crazy stuff the tau could put out. Horus even got cc time too.

 

I wouldn't be so hasty as to throw things under the bus because of theoreticals, if you find something that works, roll with it :)

 

 

I'm sure kitwulfen could tell you (because he's a gun line namby pamby :P ) that you still need a bunch of shooting elements within your army to support your assaults on the way in.

 

 

If your enemy shows up with a big nasty LoW, try and drop Horus out of his transport and aim his Lance barrage weapon at that unit to destroy it, it's pretty effective and will chew through some big nasties if you are able to guide it in.

 

 

I think mobility is key too and you should try getting some Jetbikes/bikes as they can hop around wherever their needed and weather some shots. They have gotten especially good too as you can go claim objectives with them too

[Ishagu]

If you're going to spend an ungodly amount of points on a warhound titan, why even play Sons of Horus? there are better and more point efficient legions.

 

The one single thing the SoH in their favour, is the very best Primarch on the tabletop.

If you want to ignore that, you may as well ignore the Legion as a whole.

 

This might sound harsh, but this is the reality.

 

 

I play a SoH main detachment, but more and more of my army is being replaced by Adeptus Mechanicus.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Ishagu

[Moonstalker]

Sure, you might want to field a super heavy, but Horus and a Termie squad can destroy it with a combi melta deepstrike....

 

Most of the superheavies can take armored ceramite, and if your opponent sees you bringing Horus + combimelta terminators he will just bubblewrap his superheavy with his wealth of interceptor-firing tactical marines who will prevent you from getting melta range on his titan, or just not care because his superheavy has armored ceramite.

 

 

 

Most people normally bring two HQs anyways, and a well geared Praetor can cost around 250 points...

 

u wot m8?  250 points on a Praetor?  250 points on a guy who dies to a single powerfist hit?  Are you insane?  What the hell are you buying for this guy?  The only Praetor I would spend 200 points on, nevermind 250, is a Salamanders Praetor because he can get Eternal Warrior, 2+/3++, and a thunder hammer for that price.  He can get that for LESS than that price.  What the hell are you spending 250 points on?

 

 

 

How many of the above super heavies will you see in a 2 - 2.5k game?

 

 

I feel that Horus is mandatory in bigger games

 

One of these things is not like the other.  2-2.5k is really pretty standard for HH.  1750 is the minimum to even use the Age of Darkness Force Org.  "Bigger" is more like 3k, where you are seeing titans.  If you go big enough that you're playing Apoc, this all goes out the window.  Anyway, a Typhon with Armored Ceramite and Lascannon Sponsons is only 410 points.  So about 80% the cost of Horus.  Even better, it doesn't require support elements (like a transport or bodyguard) to make it function, it does everything it needs to do by itself.  2.5k is enough for anything not-a-titan, up to a Glaive.

 

 

@depthcharge12, I'm not saying that Horus just doesn't work and you should never take him.  But if you're taking him, he's not just some panacea for our weak LA rules like Ishagu purported.  You can't just stuff him into the Lord of War slot for any list and expect your army to just work better.  If you do that, someone who is taking a Typhon or a Fellblade or whatever is going to have a leg up on you.  If you notice, in that list they're not making use of any of the rules Ishagu was referring to.  They're making those big hammer squads, in transports, and crashing into the enemy's lines.  You are basically supporting my argument here.  If you bring Horus, you have to do it right.  That doesn't mean a teleport attack into massed interceptor fire, it doesn't mean splitting your army up in outflanking maneuvers, it means transports, terminators, and the biggest crushing blow you can manage with the best assaults you can arrange.

 

I would also point out, though, that a battle against a 40k Xenos army (and one that is thoroughly unequipped to deal with large amounts of melta-immune AV14) is not exactly the best example for Legion on Legion tactics.

 

 

 

If your enemy shows up with a big nasty LoW, try and drop Horus out of his transport and aim his Lance barrage weapon at that unit to destroy it, it's pretty effective and will chew through some big nasties if you are able to guide it in.

 

I wouldn't bother.  With the new vehicle damage table in seventh, you have a 1 in 6 chance of an explodes, or knocking d3+1 HP off a superheavy.  That's not worth spending two turns dallying around with Horus.  One hull point off a Superheavy is not worth one turn of a 500 point model doing nothing (even worse if his transport and bodyguard are just sitting next to him, waiting while he steps outside for the turn, meaning you have even more points just not doing anything but being a target).  If you take him, you want him in melee on turn 2.  The ordnance strike is an easy hit, an easy pen, but the ultimate damage done is inconsequential 5 times out of 6.  You don't even want to do this on turn 2 before charging, unless you've actually got charge range on the Lord of War you just shot at.

 

 

 

If you're going to spend an ungodly amount of points on a warhound titan, why even play Sons of Horus? there are better and more point efficient legions.

 

The one single thing the SoH in their favour, is the very best Primarch on the tabletop.

If you want to ignore that, you may as well ignore the Legion as a whole.

 

Right, better tell the Legio Mortis not to show up to any more battles.  The SoH don't need them, Horus can handle it all by himself.  That whole Dark Mechanicum alliance thing is off.

 

I'm assuming most of us play this legion because we like the background and fluff.  Like I said earlier, a part of me wants to field my Luna Wolves with a different legion's crunch, because it would be more effective.  But at the same time, I refuse to do that because I know what a WAAC move that would be.  A Legio Mortis Warhound is just as fluffy to field with the Legion as Horus is - perhaps moreso, because there are more Warhounds out there than there are Horus!  You would expect to see the Warhound backing up Luna Wolves troops more often than Horus taking to the field himself.

 

If you're going flat-out WAAC competitive, then you probably didn't pick SoH in the first place.  But if you want 'competitive SoH' then you should think about what Lord of War is actually competitive.  Horus can be, in the right circumstances.  I would not even argue that he is the best Primarch on the tabletop (unless you are going to argue for the 3+ to ignore taking a wound cheese, giving him an effective 18 wounds).  But with warhounds providing incredibly cheap access to multiple D weapons, they're an easy button for competitive power, and you can't ignore that - just as you can't ignore the fluff justification for taking a warhound in a large enough game.

Edited July 8, 2014 by kitwulfen

[Sanct]

For instance, after to-wound and armor saves and FNP and everything, that +1 BS that IF get only translates to something like 2% more models killed in a tactical vs tactical firefight.

 

Errrr...phrasing.

Going from 7.4%-->9.3% chance to kill is an increase of 2% but means you kill 25% more models in a firefight.  It additive vs multiple but the way Kit wrote it understates the benefit.

 

 

Legion rules encourage FW's idea of fluffy army and tactics for each legion.  Merciless Fighters?  Get lots of boots in combat.  Usually this means tacticals since they're so cheap but reavers are an interesting alternative.  Problem comes that 40k is a game that rewards shooting over assaults so any 30k legions with shooting rules are competitively better. (looking at you Iron Hands and Imp Fists. Grrrrr)

[Ishagu]

I stand by what I said.

The single redeeming quality of the Sons of Horus is their Primarch.

 

If you feel a Primarch is not worth his points, there is 0 reason for you to play this legion.

 

Shooting is king, Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are better, and if you want an Assault army World Eaters are better too.

 

So debate all you want about efficiency in the game, but if you crunch numbers then the SoH is NOT the army for you.

 

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but you either field the Primarch and his overpriced Justaerin squad and accept the cost, or you accept that all the things that make this Legion unique on the tabletop are not worth their points, counter productive to a WAAC play style, and you change legion.

 

Can Reavers be any more underwhelming?

Even Abaddon sucks!

Edited July 8, 2014 by Ishagu

[Moonstalker]

You're correct, Sanct.  My excuse is that I am ill-tempered and poorly-spoken in the morning, before I've had enough caffeine.

 

Still, I feel like the actual difference you're gonna see on the tabletop isn't that large.  A rapid-fire range, BS4 round of boltering from a 20 man tac squad ought to kill around ~2.96 FNP marines.  The same from BS5 IF tacticals kills 3.7-ish.  It's an effect that can snowball into larger advantages for the IF marines if you try to fight it out all game at range, and you're almost guaranteed to eat a nasty fury of the legion attack as you close in.  But if you can get some supporting fire in there, tip the numbers in your favor in the shooting phase right before you assault, you can get your Merciless Fighters attacks and turn things back in your favor pretty rapidly.  It's an advantage that is small enough that I think you can just overcome it with some smart play, aggression, and target selection.

 

The -1 str on shooting attacks that IH get is harder to overcome.  You can bring some big S10 Ap2 blasts to basically negate it, but then the IH player could do the same thing and be killing your tacticals with his bolters and blasts much more effectively than your bolters and blasts are killing his.  It's much messier, and might even come down to who gets the first turn or the better scatters.

 

 

Ishagu, I crunch numbers.  I built my list on a combination of efficiency and my own personal vision of what a crusading legion should look like.  I know that other legions have better numbers.  I still choose to play Luna Wolves, because it IS the army for me.  There is room in the hobby for people who build their armies solely on what models they like the look of, and people who only care about winning, and people in between.  If you want to talk about tactics, then there is going to be some element of 'what is the most point-efficient unit' to the discussion.  When we talk about tactics we're talking about winning, and that is not always doable with any ol' unit.  Some units are just plain worse than others, because this game's balance is not perfect.

 

Not to be too rude, but I think you may be emotionally wrapped up in the Primarch that, if I remember correctly from one of your earlier threads, you impulse-bought because the model just looked so good to you.  There is nothing wrong with that - it's your hobby, your money.  And you don't have to try to justify that purchase to any of us.  You don't even have to accept my view on what Horus' proper use is.  I am not god-and-master of tactica.  As I oft repeat, I am some guy on the internet with an opinion, and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.  Just because my opinion is that Horus is not the wunderkind that suddenly makes our Legion top-tier does not invalidate your purchase, nor does it mean that I should suddenly have to find myself a new Legion.

[Ishagu]

I'm not saying for a second that a single infantry model could ever make the SoH competitive on the tabletop.

 

But ignoring all the units unique to this legion is counterproductive to narrative play. On that matter - crunching numbers and narrative don't mix. All you can hope for is making a decent list.

 

So, if you try and make a fluffy yet effective SoH list, exactly what do you run in it that separates it from a different legion?

 

A super heavy anyone can take? A no name Praetor that is equipped the same as all the others? Squads of 20 footslogging marines with an Apothecary?

 

None of that is unique or different, and you're going to lose to a similar list that simply has better legion rules if you come across a like minded player.

And don't make me laugh and say you have a "competitive" list built around outflanking Reavers!

 

You could play for fun with another player looking to forge a narrative and not WAAC...

 

 

You are right btw, I am invested in the Primarch as it's one of the greatest models I've ever seen. Seeing as I chose to get into 30k for a chance to play with some of these larger than life rockstars of the GW lore, I don't need other players spouting efficiency crap in my direction every time I make a case for running him in a FLUFFY list.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Ishagu

[Moonstalker]

I'm not saying for a second that a single infantry model could ever make the SoH competitive on the tabletop.

 

In view of this I don't feel the legion is at all competitive when pitted against one like the Iron Hands, Iron Warriors and so on.

 

I feel that Horus is mandatory in bigger games as he makes up for the Legion's naff special rules by giving the whole army +1 leaderships, outflank and also being able to take veteran tacticals as troops and allowing a termie squad to deepstrike with no scatter.

 

So, which is it?  Is Horus mandatory because he 'makes up' for the Legion's weak LA rules (making them competitive), or doesn't he?

[Ishagu]

He is the Primarch with the best force multiplying rules, so he certainly makes up for the Legion's shortcomings. Unless of course you plan to bombard your opponent with D weapons and bubblewrap your super heavy- tactics don't matter much then.

 

If I cared about competitive play or winning at all costs, I would play word bearers, ally in deamons, drown my opponent in warp charge dice, make my army invisible and summon more deamons.

 

How can the Sons of Horus compare to that?

Edited July 8, 2014 by Ishagu

[Moonstalker]

He is the Primarch with the best force multiplying rules, so he certainly makes up for the Legion's shortcomings. Unless of course you plan to bombard your opponent with D weapons and bubblewrap your super heavy- tactics don't matter much then.

 

>best force multiplying rules

 

Oh, wow.  No.

 

You might want to take a look at Ferrus Manus - he gives his entire army FNP 6+ and all AV13+ vehicles IWND, while he passes repair rolls on a 3+.  Vulkan grants his entire army +1 Ld (just like Horus) and Adamantium Will  He is also insanely tanky and can anchor an entire assault line by just being too hard to kill.  Lorgar lets all models in his detachment use his Ld, and models that can draw LoS to him get immunity to Fear, +1 to charge distance, and +1 to combat results.  Oh, and that whole being a psyker and getting to choose his powers instead of roll for them.  You might think Justaerin terminators look cool, but have you seen Word Bearers terminators?  No, you haven't, because Lorgar made them Invisible.  How about Alpharius?  Preferred Enemy (Everything) for his entire army, and shenanigans for enemy reserves.  Dorn allows you to take Terminators as troops without Pride of the Legion, allows his army to use his Ld10, gives the unit he joins Crusader and Furious Charge, allows his army to get +d3 to their combat results in assault, and can designate up to three pieces of terrain or fortifications where the models in them may reroll results of 1 on their cover saves and reroll pinning tests.  Not to mention that he allows you to take a void-shielded IWND Thunderhawk as a dedicated transport that doesn't take up a LoW slot.

 

Horus gives +1 Ld, makes two overpriced units into troops choices, seizes on a 4+ (Alpharius get this, too), grants units in reserve Outflank (forgot to mention, but Alpharius gives outflanking units +d3 movement), and he and an attached Terminator unit can Deep Strike without scatter.  And a Cognis Signum for boosting the BS of a squad within six inches, but that's the exact same thing that a Master of Signal would have (and which you might be taking anyway as a cheap HQ that stands around in back while the Primarch is up front).

Edited July 8, 2014 by kitwulfen

[Ishagu]

I'm not going to argue anymore, but I think you're playing the wrong legion. None of the above primarchs individually grant as many useful rules as Horus does - but it can be argued that Lorgar's rules are totally broken in 7th edition with guaranteed access to invisibility. I would also argue that in view of this Horus gets to nullify lost wounds on a 3+ after failing an invul/armour save :-P

 

Anyways, Sons of Horus and WAAC don't fit, when you figure out your identity as a 30k games we can go back to discussing the tactics for this Legion.

Edited July 8, 2014 by Ishagu

[Moonstalker]

I already know my identity as a 30k gamer - one who strives to balance unit effectiveness and his own personal vision/fluff and playstyle.  I'll be here, discussing things as much as I like.

 

For instance, this Reaver list I came up with while I was in the shower.  I think it should allow you to effectively counter Iron Hands that are bringing standard stuff (Typhon + Tactical Blobs).

 

Maloghurst

140

 

Legion Terminator Squad

-5 members, 1 with powerfist/plasmablaster, 1 with chainfist/combiplasma, 3 with combiplasma/powerfist, sergeant with chainfist/combiplasma

Spartan Dedicated Transport

-Armored Ceramite, Flare Shield

635

 

Reaver Attack Squad

-14 members, Jump Packs, 4 power swords, Chieftain with AA, Powerfist, Meltabombs

405

 

Reaver Attack Squad

-14 members, Jump Packs, 4 power swords, Chieftain with AA, Powerfist, Meltabombs

405

 

Sicaran Battle Tank

-Lascannon Sponsons, Armored Ceramite

195

 

Sicaran Venator

-Armored Ceramite

210

 

1990 points

 

 

Venator locks down anything firing big blasts via Shock Pulse or just works on tank hunting, Sicaran is there to try and perform some anti-air work and tank-hunting, Spartan delivers Maloghurst and his 6 terminator friends into the enemy, flanked by what are possibly the best jump-pack troops currently out there.  With their massive number of attacks and 4 power swords in each squad, they should be able to destroy tactical blobs in short order by cutting down their numbers at I4, and then breaking them at I1, then trying to catch them in the sweep after combat.  I would probably charge both squads into the same tactical blob to break it in one turn of combat, then send them both in against the second squad to make sure I get my merciless fighter attacks.  Maloghurst and his boys can work on AV14, terminators, whatever hard target presents itself.  If you dropped some upgrades here and there, you might be able to squeeze a Primus Medicae in with the terminators instead of the sixth guy.

[Dorrance]

Not to sound like a surfer or some nihilist or something but

 

30k is a labor of love, horus is awesome, sons of horus are awesome, the campaigns are awesome and playing "historic" 40k is awesome

 

I'm sure there are better builds and what not but at the end of the day 90% of my time is (on the hobby) not playing the game.

 

I'm excited to play with Reavers...

 

Plus we have to imagine that soon SOH are getting possesed sooner or later.

[Sanct]

Breaking this down because it bugs me:

 

You might want to take a look at Ferrus Manus - he gives his entire army FNP 6+ and all AV13+ vehicles IWND, while he passes repair rolls on a 3+

 

While universal 6+ FNP is nice, damaged vehicles that regen a single hull point? Maybe. Maybe your Spartan will regen a couple of points during the game but you can't rely on it happening since it has to be damaged and only succeeds on a single 5+. 

Repairing on a 3+ is cool because you can argue he can do it 2 times (once for each weapon he can shoot) but do you want him sitting at the back repairing?  In his transport moving forward maybe but it's not exactly great as a force multiplier if your vehicles are one shotted.

He also has a nuncio-vox but late game deepstriking next to your best meleer? Barraging from a model in a transport or melee? Not great.

 

 Vulkan grants his entire army +1 Ld (just like Horus) and Adamantium Will  He is also insanely tanky and can anchor an entire assault line by just being too hard to kill

 

So Vulkan has one buff Horus has and a psychic defence buff. Woo! Maybe those psychic debuffs and shooting will not be used. Like now.

As for being tanky - we're talking about units that, on average rolls, will spend the entire game in mutual slap fights with each other. It would still take Vulkan 12 combat rounds to kill Horus but Horus would take 6-8 to kill Vulkan.

 

 

 Lorgar lets all models in his detachment use his Ld, and models that can draw LoS to him get immunity to Fear, +1 to charge distance, and +1 to combat results.  Oh, and that whole being a psyker and getting to choose his powers instead of roll for them.  You might think Justaerin terminators look cool, but have you seen Word Bearers terminators?  No, you haven't, because Lorgar made them Invisible

 

Since most of the sarg's are Ld9 this gives them +1 Ld (like Horus) and immunity to fear is situational. Both are buffs on the legion buff. So all in all word bearers will probably never have fear or moral issues.

+1 charge and +1 combat results? Useful. Arguably his best buffs considering invisibility is a monsterously broken power which-I-have-no-clue-how-got-past-the-balance-testers. Plus his psychic abilities are due for a faq since 7th dropped so, at best, it's a loophole until then.

 

How about Alpharius?  Preferred Enemy (Everything) for his entire army, and shenanigans for enemy reserves

 

Shenanigans for enemy reserves is extremely situational.  What idenitical units would both you and your opponent put in reserve? Not many.

Seizing on a 4+ (just like horus) and preferred enemy are excellent but +d3" to ouflankers? meh at best due to unreliability for time when you must have already accounted for a bad roll. (1" extra? wooooo)

 

  Dorn allows you to take Terminators as troops without Pride of the Legion, allows his army to use his Ld10, gives the unit he joins Crusader and Furious Charge, allows his army to get +d3 to their combat results in assault, and can designate up to three pieces of terrain or fortifications where the models in them may reroll results of 1 on their cover saves and reroll pinning tests.  Not to mention that he allows you to take a void-shielded IWND Thunderhawk as a dedicated transport that doesn't take up a LoW slot.

 

Dorn. Ick. He is a brutal buffer.

Terminator troops tho? Unless you're going full terminator, hate the other troops, use a non-pride RoW, or really need elite slots it's meaningless. They already score.

Ld10? Again this is effectively +1 Ld for most units (so it's just the same as Horus)

The rest are very painful. The, relatively, dirt cheap thunderhawk is one but you're probably in Apocalypse Land there and LoW doesn't matter. The ~200 point price drop does. I mean damn. It'll certainly will stop anyone at the palace gates.  Except Dorn won't stop a primarch in hand to hand (Horus comes to mind). Given the other combat differences unwieldy makes Dorn a spanked baby. (no I do not like the Imperial Fist fluff)

 

 

On to Horus!

 

Horus gives +1 Ld, makes two overpriced units into troops choices, seizes on a 4+ (Alpharius get this, too), grants units in reserve Outflank (forgot to mention, but Alpharius gives outflanking units +d3 movement), and he and an attached Terminator unit can Deep Strike without scatter.  And a Cognis Signum for boosting the BS of a squad within six inches, but that's the exact same thing that a Master of Signal would have (and which you might be taking anyway as a cheap HQ that stands around in back while the Primarch is up front).

 

+1Ld is ok. Quite a few primarchs have it. It isn't great but is useful for the basic boys.

Seizing always gives a warm glowy feeling.

Giving outflank is insane since EVERY unit can now do it (and appear early due to legion rules).  Especially fast movers like bikes (I know you don't like them kit) or heavy alpha strikers like plasma in rhinos or sniper vets (hang on they're troops now!) or even giving a degree of extra invulnerability to a rock land raider (maybe with horus in it?) It's an optional extra that gives you more flexibility to all your units.

Veteran as troops is useful. I wouldn't say they're overcosted but so may people overspend on them rather than making them what they are - tacticals with ccw, weapon access and a special rule.  They're akin to reavers in that regard (irony abounds)

Justaerin are still 50 odd pts too much and need access to plasma blasters.

His precision bombardment is ok as I can't believe Horus doesn't get relentless from his unique terminator armour.

The cognis doesn't need to be in the unit it's buffing.  You could -citing example from early post- use it to buff nearby terminators so they can plasma a bubblewrap before charging and pulling remnants away so horus can sneak through the hole and go dave grohl on the rear of that tank with worldbreaker. (I still can't believe he doesn't get relentless from his unique terminator armour.)

I would question if his Sire of the SoH or teleportation rule affects fliers he's in.  I don't think it would but an unscattering turn 2 appearance of a thunderhawk in apocalypse (and the following assault) would be funny.

 

 

I don't agree that Horus is the best force multiplier. Or even the worst.  Horus is never meant to be the best at anything, but he was supposed to be the best of everything.

He's a solid all round fighter.  Able to stand up well against most other primarchs.  Able to deal with terminators and power armour dudes in droves. (I wouldn't be surprised if he killed 10 on a turn he charged) MC's are an issue but they are for all the primarchs.

He has good buffs. Certainly not Dorn level but the Sons and Horus have changes to go through between now and the Emperor's Palace. Hopefully it's redress some of the creep going on.

 

 

Damn that's a chunk of text.  I feel better.

Edited July 10, 2014 by Sanct