[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[Sheesh Mode]

You intend to take Horus, attach him (so he has majority toughness 4) to a unit that cannot run and deepstrike him?  They'll be base to base.  I think Kit talked about how insanely risky that is it earlier in the thread.

You would be better off using regular terminators as they are acting as a meat shield to the others.

 

High Risk, high reward. That is the essence of the Sons of Horus. It *is* insanely risky, yet at the same time potentially game changing. Justaerin are nothing to scoff at. 

[Sanct]

 

High Risk, high reward. That is the essence of the Sons of Horus. It *is* insanely risky, yet at the same time potentially game changing. Justaerin are nothing to scoff at. 

 

 

Sometimes but when you already have Horus and 2 centurions it's overkill for the cost of 150 odd points.

[Hesh Kadesh]

You have no Grav. Typhon eats you. Vindicators, Melta preds too. Grav stops you from assaulting as enemies move away. You have otherwise a tactical blob, 4 mortars, and a  pair of Vindicators. You have no anti-flyer defence, which means that you're dead to Assault Rams.

 

Grav, Typhon, Melta Preds and Assault Rams are all pretty common meta units in this game, precisely because of people thinking that set ups like yours are powerful.

 

First turn, you have 14 Tacs, an Apothecary, and 4 Quad Mortars on the board. You have NO reserve manipulation, because Horus arrives Turn 2 automatically, nullifying your manipulation benefits from SoH, and vehicles don't benefit. Without a Master of Signal, Aegis Line, Proteus Explorator or Damocles, you're reliant on passing 2 3+ rolls. 

 

Between a Typhon, Melta Preds, Deredeo's. The Melta Preds are weakest against the Quad Mortar, because Sunder is 8 shots, hitting on 3's (6-7 hits), and glancing on a 5+, so 55%, which is 3 glances on average, so maybe one dead Melta Pred while the other two then unleash a pair of Melta shots on you (and is reliant on you having 1st turn, which even with a 4+ sieze isn't a guarantee). 

 

The tacticals are then eating a ton of firepower from whatever is left.

 

You come down with Horus, and he's not in an assault until turn 3 either way. Unit eats a Typhon, Melta Templates. Eat maybe one or two Vindicator templates on outlying units, turn round and slap them with AT firepower from Grav or AT from elsewhere.

[Sanct]

 

 Melta Preds,

 

 

Hesh I've seen you write about them alot but why are you a fan of them over vindi or executioner plasma preds?

[norngahl]

S 8 kills most things outright, especially chars and 2W terminators and since they can be fielded in squadrons, you have 2 slots left for deredeos.

[Hesh Kadesh]

S8 AP1 removes Feel No Pain on a large BS4 Turret Mounted Blast, and as mentioned, is good fun to use on things like Deathshroud, Firedrakes and Apothecaries. They're 120pts, on an AV13 hull, and can be taken in 1-3 with a Command Tank upgrade available to give a 48" diameter bubble reroll; if you have 3 or more tactical squads, not only is it cheaper to run them as such than giving them a single Vexilla which can be barrage sniped (no Look Out Sir), but applies to units such as Terminators.

 

I do prefer the Knight Paladin's Thermal Cannon (I have the type right?) for S9 to gib things like Gorgonators and the Typhon, but it's much cheaper, and for 390pts, I'm putting out 3 Large Instagibbing Blasts. 

 

They do have a downside; and that's mainly units which can hover at 30" plus and shoot them in the side, but good terrain management, and the fact that they're shooting them makes your Typhons and Dreadnoughts last longer.

[depthcharge12]

Hmm, I'd just be worried about the preds getting nuked by things like the ubiquitous quad mortar battery or Deredeo dreads. A lucky Typhon shot could destroy the whole squadron too :P unlikely as that sounds.

 

I am curious to try them out however. I've found the plasmacutioner to absolutely wreck face, but like you said, it doesn't have S8.

 

Edit: Herp derp

Edited August 31, 2015 by depthcharge12

[Sheesh Mode]

@Hesh: Vehicles cannot benefit from Edge of the Spear? Don't they benefit from the legion rules? Further what are you basing your meta assertions on? Do you have some sort of national tournament seen you can provide a source to?
 

Finally how are they going to afford that much firepower at 2k points?

---

In other news, is this viable? I do not really comprehend any 30k meta as of this time and will be playing against 40k players mostly.
 

+++ Cannibal Pact: Storm of Bloodied Steel (SoH.30k.1850) (1845pts) +++

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

Maloghurst the Twisted

Master of the Legion [Orbital Assault]

 

+ Troops +

Reaver Attack Squad [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, 3x Power Weapon, 10x Reavers]

Reaver Attack Squad [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, 3x Power Weapon, 10x Reavers]

 

+ Elites +

Legion Terminator Squad [Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, 2x Chainfist, 7x Legion Terminators, 2x Thunderhammer]

 

+ Fast Attack +

Deathstorm Drop Pod [Drop Pod Assault special rule, Five Deathstorm Krak Launchers]

Deathstorm Drop Pod [Drop Pod Assault special rule, Five Deathstorm Krak Launchers]

Deathstorm Drop Pod [Drop Pod Assault special rule, Five Deathstorm Krak Launchers]

 

+ Heavy Support +

Legion Caestus Assault Ram [Frag Assault Launchers]

 

+ Legion +

Legion Astartes [XVI: Sons of Horus]

Edited August 31, 2015 by Sheesh Mode

[SkimaskMohawk]

Only things with the Legiones Astartes special rule get Legion rules (unless specifically stated otherwise).

[depthcharge12]

@Sheesh

 

I think that list might be a little unsporting. I mean death storms aren't phenomenal, but a list like that is nuts.

[Hesh Kadesh]

1. Do vehicles have Legiones Astartes (Sons of Horus)? Nope. It's an annoyance In my eyes, and something which is helping keep the SoH out of the very top tier. This wouldn't make them RG level of good, but it's one of the things which would help. Giving them Acute Senses and Outflanking vehicles would help, and bring them in line with Book 2-5 levels. 

 

2. No, I don't, just experience of playing this from the start and with around 20 others similarly invested. Of course, meta's may vary, but we play 2.5-3K games of Age of Darkness, rather than 1850 vs 40K. 

 

3. I don't need to. It just needs to be a capable threat and likely enough to turn up. You don't always know what people are bringing, but you're playing Rock Paper Scissors with Hard counters galore. Legion lists play like Eldar in that regard, and bringing a list which is hard countered by popular/powerful commonly taken units is like asking why fire burns when you hold it.

 

Typhon is 370pts, Melta Preds 120, Deredeos 220. Grav Rapiers are 225 for 3. I take minimum Tactical Squads in Rhinos, and reserve them, hoping to fail for as long as possible (370). 

 

2x Tacs, Rhino = 370

 

3x Grav Rapiers = 225

3x Grav Rapiers = 225

 

3x Melta Preds = 360

1x Deredeo, Aiolos, Autocannons = 220

 

Typhon, AC = 370

 

That's the core of the list which can be built around, and is usually the core of any of my lists; that's 1770pts, leaving you 230pts for a HQ and assorted upgrades (even a 50pt Centurion on foot leaves you with 180pts; if you drop 3x Grav Rapiers for another Deredeo, that leaves you with enough points for another Tac Squad in a Rhino to come on from Reserve, or a Vindicator Tank Destroyer for 130pts leaves you with 90pts for a HQ. 

 

____

 

In regards to the list; I'm yet to be sold on the Deathstorms, even with the updates from the FAQ. Why are you running Orbital Assault though? You don't take advantage of the benefits from what I can see (unless you're not running the Cata's in the Caestus, of course, but I still don't know why you'd do that and leave them susceptible to Predators/Vindicators or Grav).

Edited August 31, 2015 by Hesh Kadesh

[Sheesh Mode]

@Sheesh

 

I think that list might be a little unsporting. I mean death storms aren't phenomenal, but a list like that is nuts.

Oh? Um. I just put together what I thought would work against the stuff Hesh Kadesh says is typical in the 30k meta.

 

 

 

In regards to the list; I'm yet to be sold on the Deathstorms, even with the updates from the FAQ. Why are you running Orbital Assault though? You don't take advantage of the benefits from what I can see (unless you're not running the Cata's in the Caestus, of course, but I still don't know why you'd do that and leave them susceptible to Predators/Vindicators or Grav).

I am running Orbital Assault to better transport the Reavers into Assault. It essentially focuses on Deathstorms to break open enemy vehicles turn 1 for Reavers to assault enemy infantry turn 2. Then the Caestus and a second reaver squad finish the job, or break out another key unit on turn 3. For example ramming a Typhon with the Caestus or assaulting a unit of artillery or tanks with the Cataphractii turn 3. 

 

The only legion rule that is really being relied on is the Merciless Fighters rule, which is vital to make up for the few infantry I can field. I hope it will be applicable in most games as I am relying on the firepower from my Deathstorms and Dreadclaws to thin out the enemy and make the Reavers assault more effective.

 

It is all dependent on what I am facing.

Edited August 31, 2015 by Sheesh Mode

[Hesh Kadesh]

the Reavers already have access to Anvillus pods though? Thinking about it from another way, what about Angel's Wrath, and giving them Jump Packs. 

 

You'll also have a trouble getting the Reavers into assault properly using that idea; DPA only allows 3 pods first turn; you cannot assault on the turn you arrive from reserve, so they have to come in first, this means you're bringing in the Krak Pods (*giggle*) turn 2, which only shoots D3*2 BS2 Krak Shots. It's not especially clear if you get to shoot with the Krak Missiles as well, but I don't think so (fires normally in subsequent turns). Rolling average sees a 4 BS2 shots which is 1-2 AP3 hits; regardless of penetrating roll, you're unlikely to nix a transport, even a Rhino, unless you roll for 6 shots (on BS2?). You might over two turns, but it's unlikely that a Rhino will be in assault range of a Dreadclaw Reaver unit (13-24") when that happens.

[Sheesh Mode]

the Reavers already have access to Anvillus pods though? Thinking about it from another way, what about Angel's Wrath, and giving them Jump Packs. 

 

You'll also have a trouble getting the Reavers into assault properly using that idea; DPA only allows 3 pods first turn; you cannot assault on the turn you arrive from reserve, so they have to come in first, this means you're bringing in the Krak Pods (*giggle*) turn 2, which only shoots D3*2 BS2 Krak Shots. It's not especially clear if you get to shoot with the Krak Missiles as well, but I don't think so (fires normally in subsequent turns). Rolling average sees a 4 BS2 shots which is 1-2 AP3 hits; regardless of penetrating roll, you're unlikely to nix a transport, even a Rhino, unless you roll for 6 shots (on BS2?). You might over two turns, but it's unlikely that a Rhino will be in assault range of a Dreadclaw Reaver unit (13-24") when that happens.

 

Angel's Wrath? I like the idea, but at the same time fear the waves of firepower my jumppack troops will bare before they make contact. I assumed that a Dreadclaw would provide additional firepower *and* protection while helping to control the drop pod rules. It's fairly difficult for me, as a chaos marine player, to really know what does or does not work in 30k. I have been attempting to treat Reavers as 30k Chosen Chaos Space Marine equivalents, but I am no longer certain that is appropriate. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

It's difficult to run them at 1850, because you're effectively spending 65pts for a 6" move on the turn after you arrive. It also depends on the amount of terrain (and if your opponent is spamming barrage weapons).

 

In regards to Barrage Weapons in 30k, the biggest threat are Medusa, and to a lesser extent, Thudd Guns. If you're facing either, you can pop them in terrain. The honest issue is that you aren't going to have enough models on the table by Turn 2 with that build, but you don't have enough points to get the best out of the legion lists.

[norngahl]

Hey guys. Need some input.

 

I'm going to face my bros smurfs.. We are going to play 2k and he challenged my 30k SoH with his 40k marines.. Well, we have a friendly "whos got the biggest"-competion beside other, rather soft games, for years and all that counts is in here is victory. No matter how ugly or cheesy the lists are, it's just about taking the best available and ram it down each others throat, laughing vicious, close to insanity. Well.. I he tailored his cheese list to mine last time and I'm going to tailor mine to his this time. I like armoured units and he pretty much annoyed me through taking 5/6 boots. Just boots, to render all the anti tank stuff pretty useless.. one round of shooting with 3 vindicators and a big pie plate, ignoring cover, is often enough to break a good defensive anvil down to pieces.

 

It will be 2k. And I'm going to face roughly

 

Captain or Chapter Master with Hammer and Shield Eternal

Command Squad with 4x Meltas in Pod

4x Tacticals with all Grav in Pod

2x Devastors with Lascannons

3x Vindicators (for big plate ignoring cover)

2x Thunderfire Cannons

1x Skyhammer Annihilation Force, 20 Devastors all Grav, 20 Assault Marines with Flamers

 

Well, he essentialy gets all his transports for free due to Demi-Battle Company, the Skyhammer Annihilation Force has all Grav Cannons so 40 counting as stationairy Grav Shots with rerolling to wound/armour penetration while allowing the Assault Marines to charge the turn they came in plus some other nice gimmicks as well.. let's face it, I'm pretty f*cked.

 

My guess is- he will deploy the TFC in 3+ Cover together with the 8 Lascannons from the Devastors.. First turn the Command Squad with 2x Marines will arive for sending the skyhammer in turn 2, using locator beacons of his drop pods.. the command squad designed to kill anything important or expensive I don't buy ceramite for (and let's face it, I rarely do beside of a spartan or super heavy)..

 

When the skyhammer force arrives they will toast whatever unit they will be aimed at. It's about 8 hullpoints against superheavys or spartans per round just from the skyhammer force alone and due to combat squad he will have 5 men units with 2 grav cannons, making it annoyingly important to remove the units completly, otherwise there will be a gravcannon left. Bad idea to hug in cover and outshoot this as well, as I will propably loose to the insane firepower this army has.

 

I could go for Aircraft only (needing double sixes with all that grav to penetrte a flier), but I don't own the models to go all way, nor do I want this.. I want to eat his bloody heart so he will never use this armylist again.

 

What I thought of was something like

 

Sons of Horus (Primary Detachment)   -  1585 points

 

Legion Praetor, Paragon Blade, Iron Halo, Digital Lasers, Meltabombs, Void Shield Harness 210 - Orbital Assault Rite of War-

Legion Contemptor Dreadnought, 2x CCW, 2x Melta, Dreadnought Drop Pod 270

2x Apothecary, Augury Scanner 100

10 Marines, Close Combat Weapons/Boltpistols, Vexilla, Legion Drop Pod 195

10 Marines, Close Combat Weapons/Boltpistols, Vexilla, Legion Drop Pod 195

8 Reavers, 8x Combiplasma/Banestrike Shells, Legion Drop Pod 295

9 Reavers, 9x Combiplasma/Banestrike Shells, Legion Drop Pod 320

 

Cult Army (Allied Detachment)                               - 335 points

 

Cult Horde, Tainted Flesh 70

Force Commander, Cult Demagogue, Cyber Familiar, Tainted Weapon 65

50 Inducted Levy Auxiliaries, Close Combat Weapons/Auxilia Pistols 100

50 Inducted Levy Auxiliaries, Close Combat Weapons/Auxilia Pistols 100

 

80 points left. Laser Rapiers for the cult army?

 

 

I want to completely nuke him off the board if possible. First round the Reavers and the Contemptor come down. The contemptor will shoot the rear of a vindicator, propably destroying it or rip off its gun, getting rid of the pie plate the vindicators would dropon the levys otherwise. The reavers will nuke the Devastros with precision shots and half plasma, dropping into their cover. The blobs will be spread 2" wide, so the thunderfire cannons plates will only hit 2 models at best. The blobs will run in the shooting phase. When his first wave drops, the apothecarys might use the interceptor, depending on what drops. Reavers and Contemptor will stay in the pods for AV12, at least a bit of survivability. The Void shield harness will cover the whole praetor pod, forcing a second AT unit to shoot the shield down, before it can target the pod and then they have to destroy the pod with another AT before they can target the reavers. Once 1 vindicator and all the devastors are down, I should be able to deal with him in CC. The rending, fearless and hating blobs are quite nice to shut down units and kill them with rending..  Anyhow, I think he will win the game unless I table him due to missions.. But I can't go for missions myself because I'll get gunned down..

 

As well thought of outflanking javelins with hunterkillers to get the back of the vindis, reserve game with a typhon, delaying his reserves with a damocles, splitting my army and using cover so he can only ever see one unit at a time to aim his guns at when the skyhammer comes in..

 

Stil, I could go unbound.. comments? Thoughts? Tough nut for me.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Long story short, you die.

[WolfOfHorus]

That's a tough one, as Legion player that goes against 40k armies, Space Marines are oddly one of the hardest match ups. My FLGS banned all Formations that grant free points so it isn't as bad as this.

 

You CANNOT out alphastrike 40k Marines, with their ease of access across the board to and the fact that your paying a tax upfront for basic units while being limited heavily by your Rite of War.

 

Tanks are a no go, you've got the right idea with the Contemptors in pods. But your Contemptors will most likely take a at least one round of Lascannon fire, very expensive as well.

 

I'm just thinking that your bringing this yourself either way, your facing against essentially 2270 points with 2000. Do you own anything else besides Horus and a Typhon because this :cuss is :cussed. Go unbound and take the nastiest :cuss you can and that'll depend on your collection.

[blackoption]

Note: Demi-Company does NOT grant free vehicles.  2 Demi-Companies (one with chaplain, one with captain) allow for free vehicles.  Based on what you listed... he does not even have a single demi-company (nor its associated tactical doctrine).  Units belonging to one formation cannot be tagged as part of another.  (thus his assault marines in the sky-hammer cannot be used as part of his demi-company).  Granted, the Skyhammer and the grav will still eat you alive (unless you can mitigate them somehow).  Can grav harm void shields?

[Caillum]

Captain or Chapter Master with Hammer and Shield Eternal

Command Squad with 4x Meltas in Pod

4x Tacticals with all Grav in Pod

2x Devastors with Lascannons

3x Vindicators (for big plate ignoring cover)

2x Thunderfire Cannons

1x Skyhammer Annihilation Force, 20 Devastors all Grav, 20 Assault Marines with Flamers

 

Well, he essentialy gets all his transports for free due to Demi-Battle.

Can you find out exactly what he's fielding? Because he doesn't get free transports - that's only if he runs 2 Demi-Battle Companies. He doesn't even qualify for 1 Demi-Company bonuses, as he lacks a "Fast" choice, ie: Attack Bike, Assault Squad. Make sure you point this out to him.

 

Doesn't help the fact that he's taking the Skyhammer - universally considered the most broken, cash-grabby formation GW has ever put out. And as WolfOfHorus pointed out, Legion armies are not designed to play against 40k armies, so there's massive balance issues.

[Slips]

Note: Demi-Company does NOT grant free vehicles.  2 Demi-Companies (one with chaplain, one with captain) allow for free vehicles.  Based on what you listed... he does not even have a single demi-company (nor its associated tactical doctrine).  Units belonging to one formation cannot be tagged as part of another.  (thus his assault marines in the sky-hammer cannot be used as part of his demi-company).  Granted, the Skyhammer and the grav will still eat you alive (unless you can mitigate them somehow).  Can grav harm void shields?

No, Grav Cannot Harm Void-Shields. At least, thats how we play it.

[norngahl]

Hey guys.

 

Must confess I forgot about the chaplain and the assault marines might have been 4x5, anything he had in his army were 5 men squads as he combat squadded anything, so I might have lost the overview a bit.

 

If I go unbound I could buy 2x reavers with dakka in pods and with apothecary, giving me 2 rounds of dakka at it's best (alphastrike, interceptor), plus a ceramite typhon from reserves is another alpha plate on the table against whatever came down his first round and something he HAS to deal with. 5x20 cult levys, force commander, rough psyker for summoning deamons (rather immune to grav like the levys).. a fire raptor might be cool for ap3 as well and he can hardly deal with fliers. Maybe a few dreads on top.. once I managed to get into combat I'm save from his shooting..

[norngahl]

What about this list?

 

Legion Praetor, Paragon Blade, Iron Halo, Digital Lasers, Metabombs, Void Shield Harness 210

Legion Praetor, Paragon Blade, Iron Halo, Digital Lasers, Metabombs, Void Shield Harness 210

2xApothecarys, Artificer Armours, Powerswords, Augury Scanners 130

Quadmortar 60

Quadmortar 60

Quadmortar 60

Quadmortar 60

6x Tactical Supporters, 6x Plasmagun, Drop Pod 225

8x Reavers, 8x Combiplasma, 2x Powersword, 1x Poweraxe, Drop Pod 325

8x Reavers, 8x Combiplasma, 2x Powersword, 1x Poweraxe, Drop Pod 325

 

Cult Horde, Tainted Flesh 70

Force Commander, Cult Demagogue, Cyber Familiar, Tainted Weapon 65

5x 20 Inducted Levy Auxiliaries, Close Combat Weapons/Auxilia Pistols 200

Close Combat Weapons/Auxilia Pistols 200

 

 

 

The Quadmortars to destroy the Vindicators as fast as possible (their only task), Hord tries to get in CC and beeing as widespread as possible to get tougher for plates, Reavers drop down first round, nuke the Devastors out of their cover, nuke the first dropping wave (especially the meltas) while beeing immune to grav due to the void shield. If something manages to bring the voidshield down (vindicator for example, can't destroy them all round 1), the squad at least got some protection through the drop pod and apothecary. Second round, the support squad appears and starts nuking.. Then, try to charge as many units as possible with as many units as possible to get out of the hailstorm of fire and eat them in CC..

 

 

Sounds like a plan.. what do you think?

[WolfOfHorus]

Looks pretty solid, my only gripe being the low amount of AT, which is understandable.

 

Drop the Apothecary's, they aren't eligible for Reavers sadly. Get more power weapons or Quad Mortars.

 

Remember, he has Objective Secured, this will be crucial if it switches from a bloodbath to rushing for objectives.

Edited September 2, 2015 by WolfOfHorus

[Hesh Kadesh]

Rather than comment on the lists effectiveness (against an army is was never designed to be balanced along with, using a completely different set of army building mechanics), I'll not that you're only allowed one of each relic is allowed per army, and you have 5 elites choices.