[HH1.0] Sons of Horus Tactica

[Hesh Kadesh]

Abaddon; 215pts

Justaerin; 7 additional, 2 Multimeltas, 7 Powerfists, 3 Chainfists, 5 CombiWeapons; 635

 

At 850pts, on a unit which cannot get into CC until turn 3 (best case scenario, considering your 6" move, no run and hope for a decent scatter AND charge on a none fleet unit) loses most of the benefits of Stubborn, Furious Charge, Merciless Fighters, Abaddons ability to Sweep, thats not forcing anyone to deal with anything.

[Flint13]

If I was going for just effective weight of fire, I'd say quad-mortars, hands down. Sunder shells get work done.

 

But mobile and effective, I'd have to agree with Norn, on Fire Raptors and Sicarans. I'd prefere the Sicaran personally. It's arguably more resilient, and that accelerator autocannon is way more effective than two garden variety autocannons. 

[Hesh Kadesh]

Leviathan with Kharybdis. It can spam 10 TL S6 into rear armour, and 6-12 S7 Sunder +4 S6 Shots.

Deredeo; 4 S8 BS5 Sunder and split fire S6 AP3 to take out elite marines elsewhere

Javelins bring a Cyclone Missile and a Multimelta, and option for a pair of Hunter Killers, while normal Speeders bring Graviton. Outriders bring TL melta's and scout. Seekers bring a TL Combi melta and Special ammo.

Assauot Marines bring Power Weapons to charge after, and Meltaguns.

Rapiers with Quad Mortars have arguable Sunder Shells.

Proteus Land Raider Squadrons can get Scout and Command Tank rules which gives a good flanking force with 6 TL Lascannons able to get Line of Sight, and ability to shoot 4 different targets with them if necessary.

[GreyCrow]

Abaddon; 215pts

Justaerin; 7 additional, 2 Multimeltas, 7 Powerfists, 3 Chainfists, 5 CombiWeapons; 635

 

At 850pts, on a unit which cannot get into CC until turn 3 (best case scenario, considering your 6" move, no run and hope for a decent scatter AND charge on a none fleet unit) loses most of the benefits of Stubborn, Furious Charge, Merciless Fighters, Abaddons ability to Sweep, thats not forcing anyone to deal with anything.

 

After thinking about it, I would run neither the multi-melta nor the combis on the Justaerin. The MM are too expensive for my taste on a single shot weapon (while for 25 points outriders get twin linked meltas...) and I'm not a fan of single use weapons on BS4 models. Though 7 PF and 3 CF sounds good ! So that saves 85 points pushing the unit at 765 points. Perhaps with a couple of Lightning Claws to take advantage of Merciless Fighters.

 

You do make a great case that Abbadon and them don't mesh well though, I didn't see things this way, but it's true that Stubborn/Fearless are redundant. Perhaps Abbadon is better used as a boost to regular Terminators. Interesting comment about Abbaddon's ability to sweep, maybe he's meant to be played as deep striking with the Terminators, then joining another unit (that is able to perform sweeping advances) to provide a good melee buff (also helping this unit to trigger Merciless Fighters by bringing 2 "models" as well as some decent melee punch. Then the Terminators/Justaerin operate independently.

 

Aside from the few rules, the main difference between the Justaerin and the Command Squad is the fact that they can be taken in 10 while the Command Squad is limited to 5. Whether that's worth the premium is another debate.

[PastelAvenger]

I don't really get Abaddon at all, his Armour gives him Relentless which is practically useless. A Praetor will strike before him with Ap2 for cheaper and being able to deep strike Terminators isn't worth the extra points. He really needs to get Eternal Warrior in the update.

 

It is a real shame because that model is absolutely gorgeous!

[ThatOneMarshal]

My problem is that his armor allows him to sweep advance yet his rules scream put him with terminators.

 

I have no clue how to make him better. It would probably help to change up his power sword to a paragon blade or make his powerfist STR 10 or something. Or make him more of a force multiplier.

[PastelAvenger]

My problem is that his armor allows him to sweep advance yet his rules scream put him with terminators.

 

I have no clue how to make him better. It would probably help to change up his power sword to a paragon blade or make his powerfist STR 10 or something. Or make him more of a force multiplier.

To be honest the problem is Justaerin, they need Relentless and slow and purposeful removing then he starts looking like a nice addition.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Justerians also just need a pts reduction, their base cost is truly astounding compared to other Legion's unique terminators. Hopefully they'll get the pts cost they deserve when FW updates the red books.

[GreyCrow]

I don't really get Abaddon at all, his Armour gives him Relentless which is practically useless. A Praetor will strike before him with Ap2 for cheaper and being able to deep strike Terminators isn't worth the extra points. He really needs to get Eternal Warrior in the update.

 

It is a real shame because that model is absolutely gorgeous!

 

The model is indeed great ! :) His armour is really meh indeed.

 

Abbaddon has a couple of things going for him though : WS7 meaning he'll hit anything but Primarchs on 3+ (and with a MC Power Fist, that's pretty good, with lots of opportunities to instagib another Praetor). The Paragon Blade may hit first but I'm not sure that they'll go through all 3 of Abby's wounds, while he only needs one to instagib T4.

 

I do hope he'll get updated (along with Justaerin costing a little less) in the next update though. More recent Legions have had quite the points advantage in special units.

[PastelAvenger]

 

 

I don't really get Abaddon at all, his Armour gives him Relentless which is practically useless. A Praetor will strike before him with Ap2 for cheaper and being able to deep strike Terminators isn't worth the extra points. He really needs to get Eternal Warrior in the update.

 

It is a real shame because that model is absolutely gorgeous!

The model is indeed great ! :) His armour is really meh indeed.

 

Abbaddon has a couple of things going for him though : WS7 meaning he'll hit anything but Primarchs on 3+ (and with a MC Power Fist, that's pretty good, with lots of opportunities to instagib another Praetor). The Paragon Blade may hit first but I'm not sure that they'll go through all 3 of Abby's wounds, while he only needs one to instagib T4.

 

I do hope he'll get updated (along with Justaerin costing a little less) in the next update though. More recent Legions have had quite the points advantage in special units.

My usual Praetor set up is rolling 5 attacks with MC and another from Merciless Strike before he gets to attack with the possibility of Instant Death. I haven't crunched the numbers but he will die pretty easyily. Edited January 2, 2016 by PastelAvenger

[Hesh Kadesh]

If anything, he should get Eternal Warrior. That Marked By Dark Fates is even a thing is a nice fluffy rule that has no actual effect in most games. Mainly because you can get a character who's arguably as good as Abaddon while playing a Campaign.

[GreyCrow]

 

 

I don't really get Abaddon at all, his Armour gives him Relentless which is practically useless. A Praetor will strike before him with Ap2 for cheaper and being able to deep strike Terminators isn't worth the extra points. He really needs to get Eternal Warrior in the update.

 

It is a real shame because that model is absolutely gorgeous!

The model is indeed great ! His armour is really meh indeed.

 

Abbaddon has a couple of things going for him though : WS7 meaning he'll hit anything but Primarchs on 3+ (and with a MC Power Fist, that's pretty good, with lots of opportunities to instagib another Praetor). The Paragon Blade may hit first but I'm not sure that they'll go through all 3 of Abby's wounds, while he only needs one to instagib T4.

 

I do hope he'll get updated (along with Justaerin costing a little less) in the next update though. More recent Legions have had quite the points advantage in special units.

My usual Praetor set up is rolling 5 attacks with MC and another from Merciless Strike before he gets to attack with the possibility of Instant Death. I haven't crunched the numbers but he will die pretty easyily.

 

 

Let's assume for a moment that there is no Merciless Fighters going on (because it really depends on a lot of tactical factors ).

 

Your Praetor with 5 Attacks : 3 hits with Master Crafted, (2.5 + 0.5), 2 wounds (S5 on T4), 1 unsaved wounds after the Cataphractii invulnerable.

Abbadon : 4 attacks, 3.33 hits (I may have the formula for Master Crafted wrong, but I've used the same for both analysis), 2.77 wounds, 1.38 wounds after the Cataphractii/Iron Halo save. Anyone of the 2.77 wounds that go through is instant death on T4.

Essentially, you've inflicted 1 wound on Abbaddon while he has inflicted 3 wounds due to Instant Death.

 

I'm not doing this as an epeen measuring contest, but it's better not to discount S8 AP2 at I1 as worse that AP2 at I5  Especially on a WS7 platform.

 

The true bane of Abbaddon is another Power Fist, because he doesn't have what it takes to tank it (T5 or EW or even a 3++).

Edited January 2, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Hesh Kadesh]

Abaddon has a 2+ Look out sir.

 

Unless you are challenging, in which case Abaddon quite happily helps in put wounds on your lads, and hope that the axe sword/claw wielders in his squad can remove all the ablative wounds letting his MC power fist hit home, with his Sergeant taking the wound.

[depthcharge12]

Abby will likely get punked by any one of, but not limited to: A Sally praetor, Sigismund (well dur), Alexis Polux I5 donkey punch, a Primus TDA IC with a power fist, and Hol Beloth shenanigans.

[GreyCrow]

Abaddon has a 2+ Look out sir.

 

Unless you are challenging, in which case Abaddon quite happily helps in put wounds on your lads, and hope that the axe sword/claw wielders in his squad can remove all the ablative wounds letting his MC power fist hit home, with his Sergeant taking the wound.

 

I was looking at a 1v1 challenge perspective yes. Not putting Abbaddon in a challenge when the enemy has no Power Fist or no Eternal Warrior is madness.

[Hesh Kadesh]

It is? Why? What bonuses does Abaddon get in a challenge?

[GreyCrow]

It is? Why? What bonuses does Abaddon get in a challenge?

 

You don't take that WS7 just to look good on an army roster :P There's no point about having WS7 over WS6 except when fighting with other characters with WS6 (and WS3 hitting on 5+ isn't really relevant since it's likely that Abbadon will be in a squad with an average WS lower than 7). Hitting the opposing character on a 3+ with a MC PF is a micro zealot ;)

 

___

 

With Abbadon, would you guys think interesting to Deep Strike a unit of Terminators with combis ? (let's forget the Justaerin for the moment). Obviously this unit is going to attract serious return fire. Using Power Axes/Swords to deter an enemy charge.

[Hesh Kadesh]

+1 to hit vs nigh immunity and +1 to hit anyway?

 

If I absolutely had to, I'd use him as Melta or Plasmacide. 2 Chainfists, rest with swords. 215+230. 450ish pts to get 5 Combi plasma arrive turn 2.

 

I'd much much rather save 115pts (that's what, a Scorpius? Vindicator? Plas pred?) and take an Anvillus Pod which does the same and then gives me a fast skimmer transport which i can use to deny.

[depthcharge12]

I really hope the new updates do wonders for the Justaerin - there won't be points changes, but rules changes.

 

Likely: 2 wounds, changed unit size, or possibly Banestrike combi bolters (sweet Jesus that'd be awesome to DS them and unload)

 

Out of left field: Assault from deep strike (oh man that'd be sweet), drop unwieldy clause from Merciless fighters to allow I1 weapons extra hits

 

Not likely: battle cannon cod pieces, 2++ saves from topknots, Alpharius

[GreyCrow]

+1 to hit vs nigh immunity and +1 to hit anyway?

 

If I absolutely had to, I'd use him as Melta or Plasmacide. 2 Chainfists, rest with swords. 215+230. 450ish pts to get 5 Combi plasma arrive turn 2.

 

I'd much much rather save 115pts (that's what, a Scorpius? Vindicator? Plas pred?) and take an Anvillus Pod which does the same and then gives me a fast skimmer transport which i can use to deny.

 

Could you detail your +1 points please ? I don't quite get what you're inferring

 

Oh, the Anvilus Pod is a much more interesting choice for 5 men Terminators no doubt. I was thinking about dropping 10 of them (in which case Abby is cheaper than a Kharybdis, and costs just 15 points over 2 Dreadclaws while providing Fearless which is good when they'll get shot at).

 

EDIT : I should mention that with 10 I was thinking of putting combi-meltas over combi-plasmas just for the ID chance as well as the shots of opportunities against vehicle squadrons. Besides, 20 Plasmashots without preferred enemy is screaming Gets Hots!  Indeed with 3-4 Chainfists sprinkled around.

Edited January 3, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Hesh Kadesh]

WS7 vs WS6 = +1 to hit compared to WS6

WS7 vs WS4 = no difference, but still hitting on a 3+.

 

Having that bonus is nice if you need it.

 

And honestly, I'm not sure I can say much more other than what you're suggesting legally works, and that you're about 2 years late to the party if you wanted to run a unit like that. Not that they'd have done very well against Interceptor 3 shot plasma cannons.

[Sheesh Mode]

Abbaddon, like all of the Sons of Horus special characters, is versatile. His specific role is shock assault, but he can accomplish it in different ways with different units. He does not necessarily have to deepstrike. He can ride in a spartan with a unit of Reavers and drive up the center of the field to hit enemy infantry. Or chillax inside a dreadclaw with a similar unit of Reavers. Further, his warlord trait causes a -1 to enemy leadership when within 12" of him correct? That's a strong ability that is easily overlooked. In an army built for assault superiority enemy leadership reductions are a boon. Especially when space marines can be swept if they lose combat. Abbadon simply appears difficult to utilize effectively. He's a hammer that requires finesse to use effectively and is better off bullying an opponent's weakened character rather than fighting them head on.

[Sanct]

Your Praetor with 6 Attacks : 3.25 hits with Master Crafted (2.5 + 0.75)--> 2.17 PG or 2.71 PF wounds --> 1 PG or 1.35 PF unsaved wounds after the Cataphractii invulnerable.

Abbadon : 4 attacks : 2.9 hits (2 + 0.9)--> 2.41 wounds, 1.2 PF wounds after the Cataphractii/Iron Halo save

Essentially, you've inflicted the similar damage as Abaddon with more potential and not many fewer points used.

Fixed for you!

 

 

 

He is effectively a poor build praetor with an extra 50 something points for bulky, teleporter assault, fearless, relentless and the marked by rule.  Not exactly an inspiring presence (Hurr Hurr) when half of these extras can't be used.

He is a relic from FW early character designs when they didn't seem to want to personalize every character and give them rules that make no sense to their fluff (EW and an extra wound for no reason on sigismund is the example I always use)

Edited January 3, 2016 by Sanct

[norngahl]

2 wounds justaerin would be a dream I don't even try to imagine.. giving them more staying power vs small weapons would actually be greater than reducing their points...

Give Abbadon more attacks (5), EW and a 3++ and he would be scary.

Alongside 2 wounds justaerin I guess they would be a very popular choice..

Edited January 3, 2016 by Flint13

[GreyCrow]

WS7 vs WS6 = +1 to hit compared to WS6

WS7 vs WS4 = no difference, but still hitting on a 3+.

 

Having that bonus is nice if you need it.

 

And honestly, I'm not sure I can say much more other than what you're suggesting legally works, and that you're about 2 years late to the party if you wanted to run a unit like that. Not that they'd have done very well against Interceptor 3 shot plasma cannons.

 

Okay got it now, thanks !

 

Oh, it's definitely not innovative and totally vintage like you said In any case, there's always a hard counter and I'm not looking at this for a deathstar material.

 

 

 

Your Praetor with 6 Attacks : 3.25 hits with Master Crafted (2.5 + 0.75)--> 2.17 PG or 2.71 PF wounds --> 1 PG or 1.35 PF unsaved wounds after the Cataphractii invulnerable.

Abbadon : 4 attacks : 2.9 hits (2 + 0.9)--> 2.41 wounds, 1.2 PF wounds after the Cataphractii/Iron Halo save

Essentially, you've inflicted the similar damage as Abaddon with more potential and not many fewer points used.

Fixed for you!

 

 

 

He is effectively a poor build praetor with an extra 50 something points for bulky, teleporter assault, fearless, relentless and the marked by rule.  Not exactly an inspiring presence (Hurr Hurr) when half of these extras can't be used.

He is a relic from FW early character designs when they didn't seem to want to personalize every character and give them rules that make no sense to their fluff (EW and an extra wound for no reason on sigismund is the example I always use)

 

 

Since when did the Praetor get 6 attacks ? It doesn't really count if you sneak in the +1A bonus for charging, I could do the same with Abbadon A Praetor wielding a PF will have the same number of attacks as Abbaddon, so I don't get how it magically bumped up to 5 ? Were you counting a Praetor with a PG and PF ?

 

(I actually realized that I messed up the Paragon Blade calculation, I missed the Specialist Weapon !)

And yeah, like I said Abbaddon's real bane is other PFists since the lack of EW cripples him dearly. Paragon Blade only Praetors aren't really a concern when he can instagib them.

 

Other than that, I agree with the rest of your analysis.

 

_____

 

Speaking of point cost reduction/rules updates, there has already been one with the red books. Has Forgeworld talked about a plan to bring the older legions in line ? (For instance, I know that they talked about making the Kakophoni better/cheaper, but I was curious about the other 3 Legions from Betrayal).

Edited January 3, 2016 by GreyCrow