++ Gods of the Arena - A World Eaters Community ++

[Draakur]

 

...sorry?

Where did I say rage was an issue for berserkers?

+edit+ I'm reading what I wrote again very closely, but I can't see the word rage, maybe you were referring to my use of the word 'fury'? If so I get what you mean, perhaps I should have said frenzy :)

I was referring to the frothing madman archetype that they disdained, if that isn't already apparent.

Oh, so they're basically type 3 Blood Knights (basically Noble Demon archetype, who like fighting and killing but still have a code of honor) right? I apologize in advance if I'm being annoying, but I just love discussing fluff :P

So what would this code of honor be, I'm guessing the classic 'no civilians' rule maybe :D

That would be a pretty accurate archetypal identification, yes :)

 

And that's the direction of the code of honour, yes. I'm working on a sort of idiosyncratic warrior culture amongst them, and ritualistic approach to combat where different types of challenges and oaths are used, certain types of kills are considered more honourable and worthy than others, etc. Needs work but I'm getting there. And you're not being annoying at all - if you (or anyone else) wants to weigh in with ideas as I move along I'd love to hear! :)

[Berzerker88]

 

 

...sorry?

Where did I say rage was an issue for berserkers?

+edit+ I'm reading what I wrote again very closely, but I can't see the word rage, maybe you were referring to my use of the word 'fury'? If so I get what you mean, perhaps I should have said frenzy :)

I was referring to the frothing madman archetype that they disdained, if that isn't already apparent.

Oh, so they're basically type 3 Blood Knights (basically Noble Demon archetype, who like fighting and killing but still have a code of honor) right? I apologize in advance if I'm being annoying, but I just love discussing fluff :P

So what would this code of honor be, I'm guessing the classic 'no civilians' rule maybe :D

That would be a pretty accurate archetypal identification, yes :)

And that's the direction of the code of honour, yes. I'm working on a sort of idiosyncratic warrior culture amongst them, and ritualistic approach to combat where different types of challenges and oaths are used, certain types of kills are considered more honourable and worthy than others, etc. Needs work but I'm getting there. And you're not being annoying at all - if you (or anyone else) wants to weigh in with ideas as I move along I'd love to hear! :)

That sounds interesting! I was personally thinking about something along those lines for my (fluff only) warband. Basically, what would happen if a World Eater lost his Nails? How would that impact his view of combat and his faith in the Blood God?

 

Basically, the second in command of a World Eater warband was 'blessed' with a mutation which consisted on the flesh of his head burning away and leaving only a perpetually blazing skull, Ghost Rider style. The ethereal flames burnt the implants to ash, and he was lucid in a way he hadn't been since the days of Great Crusade. As he fought, he realized fighting without the incredible adrenaline rush of the implants was a completely different experience. Plagued by cryptic visions ever since his mutations, he entered an existential crisis, wondering what was the purpose of all the fighting and killing.

 

So the guy eventually decides to gather a small retinue of his most trusted warriors and leave the warband to go on a quest for answers. His pilgrimage lead him to a hidden Daemon World where, long story short, he faces a series of gruelling tests that push him within an inch of his life, but he passes them. Mortally wounded, he comes to the realizationt that the strongest aspects of his character came to light when he was being tested against overwhelming odds, and that his wits, bravery, and complete and utter hatred and disdain for the enemy were the things that allowed him to overcome them. He finally dies with a feeling of extreme satisfaction and self-fullfilment, knowing he had fulfilled the ideal 'virtues' of a warrior. He gets immediately brought back by the living planet, and taken to an ancient daemonic temple where the ruling Daemon Prince instructs him of his true purpose: To spread these warrior virtues to the rest of mankind through glorious, epic, never-ending war (he also gives him a massive daemon axe).

 

He flies off with his warriors (now all of them Possessed) and comes back to his warband to find his Lord mortally wounded and the remaining champions competing for his suit of Terminator Armor. He swiftly kills them all one by one in single combat and seizes the armor for himself, interning the wounded Lord into a Contemptor Dreadnought as thanks for allowing him to leave on his pilgrimage. The warband is now his an he uses it to target the most peaceful, prosperous worlds of the Imperium in his quest to spread his warrior values to those who have never known them.

 

Sorry for the long post :D this is all just a very simplified version of the entire thing :P

Edited July 3, 2017 by Berzerker88

[Commissar K.]

Very cool ideas, for a source of inspiration I can also point towards the Red Headsmen army that is found in Khorne's Blades of Khorne, an armybook that contains mono-Khorne unit designs, options to build armies and narrative.

Within that army a Battalion is optional that gives you a bonus when fighting against units with the Keyword Character and Monster, something like it could be translated into 40K as for example prefering the use of Lightning Claws and Power Fists, which on a Khorne Berzerker Champion can really mess things up. Same applies to a Chaos Lord on a Khorne Juggernaut, despite him not having Blood for the Bloodgod.

Looking forward to more narrative background, I'm still awaiting more for this edition. Here is a small snippet of that army design:
http://runebrush.pa-sy.com/static/uploads/2017/04/p117.jpg 

Cheers,

[Draakur]

Loving the Red Headsmen, thanks for that. Slay the Worthy is definitely the feel I envision for the Eighth Circle.

 

@Berzerker88: Hell of a concept there, that's quite the epic journey he goes on! :) Would like to see the story written up in its entirety.

 

My concept for the Eighth Circle, broadly speaking, is a group of Astartes from various Chapters that had been captured and enslaved in Commoragh (I believe there's precedent for this, though I've not yet found the source material that describes it), forced into gladiatorial servitude for the amusement of the masses across various arenas in the dark city. Each continued to prove superior to all adversaries, each maintaining their hope of some day breaking free and far too proud to end their own lives, but with their faith in the Imperium and their previous loyalties waning over the decades as their brothers never returned to rescue them.

 

They were each entered into a particular tournament by their "owners"/masters, continuously emerging triumphant in their respective challenges against a variety of foes, until all finally reached the final eighth round where a group melee would decide the victor of the tournament. From here...

 

I'm not sure. Lol. I need to think of a way where they all essentially emerge victorious. The running idea for now is Khorne had been watching them over the years of their enslavement and saw immense potential in them. As the final eighth round began, he reached out to all of them simultaneously, telling of his appreciation for such proud and worthy warriors, offering his blessings of untold strength and martial prowess of which they could only dream, and escape from this enslavement to use them, if they would devote themselves to him now and forever.

 

I'm pretty set on this idea, but then what? He whisks them away, poof, done, happy days? Too easy. I need a hand with what happens here - any ideas? The plot up to here is fairly solid I think and well within the boundaries of reason and believability, but then just escaping on their own without help and finding their way out of Commoragh alive seems a bit of a stretch...

[Berzerker88]

Loving the Red Headsmen, thanks for that. Slay the Worthy is definitely the feel I envision for the Eighth Circle.

@Berzerker88: Hell of a concept there, that's quite the epic journey he goes on! :) Would like to see the story written up in its entirety.

My concept for the Eighth Circle, broadly speaking, is a group of Astartes from various Chapters that had been captured and enslaved in Commoragh (I believe there's precedent for this, though I've not yet found the source material that describes it), forced into gladiatorial servitude for the amusement of the masses across various arenas in the dark city. Each continued to prove superior to all adversaries, each maintaining their hope of some day breaking free and far too proud to end their own lives, but with their faith in the Imperium and their previous loyalties waning over the decades as their brothers never returned to rescue them.

They were each entered into a particular tournament by their "owners"/masters, continuously emerging triumphant in their respective challenges against a variety of foes, until all finally reached the final eighth round where a group melee would decide the victor of the tournament. From here...

I'm not sure. Lol. I need to think of a way where they all essentially emerge victorious. The running idea for now is Khorne had been watching them over the years of their enslavement and saw immense potential in them. As the final eighth round began, he reached out to all of them simultaneously, telling of his appreciation for such proud and worthy warriors, offering his blessings of untold strength and martial prowess of which they could only dream, and escape from this enslavement to use them, if they would devote themselves to him now and forever.

I'm pretty set on this idea, but then what? He whisks them away, poof, done, happy days? Too easy. I need a hand with what happens here - any ideas? The plot up to here is fairly solid I think and well within the boundaries of reason and believability, but then just escaping on their own without help and finding their way out of Commoragh alive seems a bit of a stretch...

Thanks! Maybe some day I'll have the time to put it all together, if I ever finish fleshing it out I will definetly post it here asap.

 

As for your background... Wasn't there a Khorne Daemonkin warlord that managed to summon a Host right on the arenas which actually wrecked so much that the Drukhari were forced to collapse an entire section of Commoragh? They could use something like that for their 'escape'.

 

Also IMHO it'd be fluffier if it was them who reached out Khorne instead of the other way around. After all, it's you who come to him, not him to you. Maybe have them find out about him through fellow slaves who were former Khornate cultists, being forced to fight them on the arenas and being impressed by their martial prowess.

[Draakur]

Yeh make sure you do! :)

 

Re: the Daemonkin summoning, that is CRAZY but good to know. Was this considered a big event? Just reproducing it feels a bit cheap...

 

You're probably right in saying they would need to reach out actually, yes. They promise to join in brotherhood, together creating a Warband that would serve and bring honour to his name. He promises potential for unparalleled martial prowess, etc... Maybe lays out a set of tasks for them to prove themselves, each one offering new blessings if overcome...

[Berzerker88]

@Draakur Well, if that Daemonkin lord managed to be possessed and tear open a portal large enough for a Cohort to get through, it wouldn't be a stretch for your guys to open a smaller one through ritualized combat to escape.

[Aranov]

Greetings, I dunno if this is the best place to ask but I've a question about using berzerkers.

I'm looking to expand my warband with them and I'm wondering what the best generally agreed method for delivering them to the melee is for a take-all-comers list

 

Right now I'm deciding between the Storm Eagle or Spartan Assault Tank. Rhinos and a Dreadclaw are also on the table.

My basic plan was to deliver a Chainclaw Contemptor via Dreadclaw, while advancing with as many 'Zerkers as my chosen transports can carry, supported by the rest of the army.

Another option I thought was using a Renegade knight instead of 'Temptor/Dread (Cost about number of points...)

 

My main concerns is the Eagle would be too easy to shoot down, While I'd feel kinda dirty using 2 LoW id I went with Knight/Spartan combo.

[Berzerker88]

Rhinos are good enough, always take at least two. The Dreadclaw is fine too but I'd save it for units that can't take Rhinos.

 

Equip the entire squad with chainaxes and dump the pistols for two extra S5 attacks. Give a power fist to the champion (or axe if you need the points) and not even Terminators will survive a charge from a 10 man squad, but remember they have basic marine speed and toughness so never footslog them!

[Commissar K.]

Rhinos are indeed very solid, other ways of transport can make the unit expensive quite fast but remain an option if you really want to.

There is no really good or bad with Berzerkers. I just wouldn't go completely all in on them because the game still requires some form of ranged support at the bare minimum. 

[Brother Aiwass]

Both the spartan and the eagle are great. Take in account that 12 lascannon shots wouldn't kill any of them (they'll take ~12 (spartan) and 14 (eagle) damage on average). While the spartan is tougher and has a better save, the eagle have a nice -1 to hit, meaning that BS 3+ armies will be hitting on 4's while moving 20" a turn. If points aren't a problem and you want a hard nut to crack, take the spartan. But if you also want to have an excellent flier, the eagle is your friend.

 

Rhinos are good enough, always take at least two. The Dreadclaw is fine too but I'd save it for units that can't take Rhinos.

 

But he is asking for a Eagle/Spartan comparison, isn't he?

[Dantay VI]

The only downside to the Storm Eagle is having to build the sucker 

[Berzerker88]

I just wouldn't go completely all in on them because the game still requires some form of ranged support at the bare minimum.

 

Actually, a full melee list is technically viable as long as your oponent doesn't decide to spam fliers. Unless you'd include range/melee hybrids like melta-terminators, then I'd agree with you... But even without them, a list consisting solely of mechanized berzerkers and blood slaughterers will soundly wipe the floor with most of the lists I've seen so far.

[Commissar K.]

 

I just wouldn't go completely all in on them because the game still requires some form of ranged support at the bare minimum.

 

Actually, a full melee list is technically viable as long as your oponent doesn't decide to spam fliers. Unless you'd include range/melee hybrids like melta-terminators, then I'd agree with you... But even without them, a list consisting solely of mechanized berzerkers and blood slaughterers will soundly wipe the floor with most of the lists I've seen so far.

Well you have a point. Against Imperium specially I think its viable with FW Chaos Index. Still an encounter with basically any Xenos can spell issues. Indeed Flyers but Orks and Nids aswell.

 

A chance is always there, 8ths balance is very good but outplaying multiple waves is very difficult for us. DTTFE is good, no widespread Morale ignores isnt.

[Berzerker88]

Yeah, that's why I like Rhinos so much. Not only are they excellent overwatch mitigators, but they can tie up things that could have charged you as well. Still, I definetly get where you're coming from. Close combat hordes require significant maneuver skill to play against and can easily wipe a Berzerker squad with comparatively cheaper ones such as hordes. In that kind of situation it really depends on who gets the charge.

[Berzerker88]

As of the lastest FAQ, we can take Zhufor now

[Cheex]

Zhufor is a beast: better S, W and A than a normal Terminator Lord, S10 power fist, psychic defense, enemy morale debuff. It's a shame his aura only affects Skulltakers.

 

Already have a painted Zhufor model too, so might as well give him a try. I'll make his attendant terminators into Skulltakers as well so they can benefit from his aura.

[Berzerker88]

Zhufor is a beast: better S, W and A than a normal Terminator Lord, S10 power fist, psychic defense, enemy morale debuff. It's a shame his aura only affects Skulltakers.

Already have a painted Zhufor model too, so might as well give him a try. I'll make his attendant terminators into Skulltakers as well so they can benefit from his aura.

7 wounds is insane for a non-Nurgle model. Granted, his offensive capabilities are not that great (just a normal power fist and the axe is only relevant against hordes) the lack of BftBG is confusing, him being a World Eater. He is still very much a jack of all trades, leaning a bit more towards durability while staying decent in the offensive department.

[Commissar K.]

I'm happy that FW decided to logically and finally give him the WE Keyword. So far all 8th designs are good statistically but Keywords and the way they are fleshed out in 40K is just very akward. To the point where you'd almost think that FW/GW doesn't check what they where doing.

Have mentioned it before but I think that Zhufor can be good with a small pocket of Obliterators. Have them shoot at things and be annoying while Zhufor increases their output and is there if opponents decide to handle them in melee. Being that far up the field also means that making them Skulltakers matters much less.

As for lacking Blood for the Bloodgod, indeed a bit akward but hey that's how certain things work out in 8th. Vechicles with marks also don't do anything, while Legion has quite the effect on Chaos. The current rendition actually makes them more akin to post Heresy, where Khârn actually leads a propper Warband and chills with the unit for whatever ;) What is kind of cool is that Zhufor does have the Favour of the Blood God. Finally giving an option to run mono World Eaters.
Still like the Bloodslaughterer and stuff aswell. Bit silent for my conversions and progress. Stuff is delayed and probably send next week so I'll have to sit and wait. 

Now all in all we still see that neither World Eaters or Khorne are well fleshed out at this point. I hope Death Guard Codex will be and with that it would get some hopes up to continue with some certainty. With this I mean that neither World Eaters or Khorne are currently:
- Fearless/Maniacs
- Kings of melee (we do have Bezerkers but otherwise there are enough options that do the same or better as 'World Eaters')
- Able to withstand magic/psykers
- Very clearly identified by doing something else (at least Berzerkers are due to Blood for the Boodgod)

We have Khârn and Berzerkers but obviously the Legion should be something more. Zhufor is nice but it also makes me wonder, shouldn't regular Khorne Chaos Lords be like him anyway? Icon of Slaughter is funny but in reality the thing that bothers me more is that we cant somehow ignore Morale. If the Legion/Warbands are such maniacs, what's up with that? 
"Scaring enemies" isn't really what World Eaters are about in the most direct sence. In many cases to me it's an indirect after effect of World Eaters being so fearless and choppy, which is only there in the army at a minimum level. 

--
As soon as Ive got my stuff a update will come!

  

Edited July 12, 2017 by Commissar K.

[Berzerker88]

I'm happy that FW decided to logically and finally give him the WE Keyword. So far all 8th designs are good statistically but Keywords and the way they are fleshed out in 40K is just very akward. To the point where you'd almost think that FW/GW doesn't check what they where doing.

Have mentioned it before but I think that Zhufor can be good with a small pocket of Obliterators. Have them shoot at things and be annoying while Zhufor increases their output and is there if opponents decide to handle them in melee. Being that far up the field also means that making them Skulltakers matters much less.

As for lacking Blood for the Bloodgod, indeed a bit akward but hey that's how certain things work out in 8th. Vechicles with marks also don't do anything, while Legion has quite the effect on Chaos. The current rendition actually makes them more akin to post Heresy, where Khârn actually leads a propper Warband and chills with the unit for whatever ;) What is kind of cool is that Zhufor does have the Favour of the Blood God. Finally giving an option to run mono World Eaters.

Still like the Bloodslaughterer and stuff aswell. Bit silent for my conversions and progress. Stuff is delayed and probably send next week so I'll have to sit and wait. 

Now all in all we still see that neither World Eaters or Khorne are well fleshed out at this point. I hope Death Guard Codex will be and with that it would get some hopes up to continue with some certainty. With this I mean that neither World Eaters or Khorne are currently:

- Fearless/Maniacs

- Kings of melee (we do have Bezerkers but otherwise there are enough options that do the same or better as 'World Eaters')

- Able to withstand magic/psykers

- Very clearly identified by doing something else (at least Berzerkers are due to Blood for the Boodgod)

 

We have Khârn and Berzerkers but obviously the Legion should be something more. Zhufor is nice but it also makes me wonder, shouldn't regular Khorne Chaos Lords be like him anyway? Icon of Slaughter is funny but in reality the thing that bothers me more is that we cant somehow ignore Morale. If the Legion/Warbands are such maniacs, what's up with that? 

"Scaring enemies" isn't really what World Eaters are about in the most direct sence. In many cases to me it's an indirect after effect of World Eaters being so fearless and choppy, which is only there in the army at a minimum level. 

--

As soon as Ive got my stuff a update will come!

 

I think the upcoming codexes will be a good indication of the things to come. If anything, our legion should be at least slightly fleshed out in the CSM codex. Looking forward to see your models though!

[BrassClaw]

The reason why I think they didn't give cult troopers Fearless, is because GW game designers weren't sure how strong/weak LD would be this time around. We will have to see how the Death Guard codex pans out on that front to get a better idea how Worldeaters will be affected.

 

Blood for the Blood God is an awesome rule, don't get me wrong but handing it out to every unit might be a bit overpowered and a bit redundant. What I think will happen is, we will get a Warlord trait gives BftBB to a chaos lord (maybe even an aura effect), and we might get another unit that has it (I thinking Terminators maybe new Red Butchers)

 

Anti-psyker stuff seems reasonable to expect, I would like to see an Anti-psyker character/unit rather than an army wide trait     

[Berzerker88]

And don't forget the faction-specific stratagems. We might get something that lets all units deny the witch for a turn or something.

[OPTIMVSCHRISTVS]

If they want to give us anti-psyker capability, all they have to do is add Flesh Hounds to the army list...

[Berzerker88]

On another note, a fully air-dropped 'paratrooper' list is extremely viable. One thunderhawk and two Storm Eagles carrying upgraded Berzerkers with power fists on the champions, along with Zhufor and Khârn. Does anyone know how many points that woule cost? If it's too expensive, even three Storm Eagles are borderline cheese.

[Commissar K.]

On another note, a fully air-dropped 'paratrooper' list is extremely viable. One thunderhawk and two Storm Eagles carrying upgraded Berzerkers with power fists on the champions, along with Zhufor and Khârn. Does anyone know how many points that woule cost? If it's too expensive, even three Storm Eagles are borderline cheese.

Going that route is certainly an option, granted I still think that transports and melee troops can work in many ways :). I really don't think multiples are too much of a cheesefest even. 

 

Their cost comes down to:

(Blank) 210

Twin Heavy Bolter 17

Vengeance Launcher 28

Hellstrike Missles 40

-

Twin Multi-Melta/Reaper Autocannon/Havoc Launcher 54/??/11

Balefire Missles/Twin Lascannon 60/50

-

 

So yeah the Storm Eagle certainly does not seem like a bad choice with the costs involved, especially not when you really want to transport a blob. Granted I do think that we wouldn't likely want 20 Berzerkers too often in once place. Though the choice doesn't seem bad at all if you do :P 

 

Offtopic but what I don't really get is why we have Daemonic Machine Spirits ? (As in the name), to me it would make more sence to simply call it a Daemonic Spirit instead of a combination.

 

Now I have to admit I don't know too much about the lore and such but the moment we can thake a Mark of Chaos on such a vechicle (and we can) it would even feel more logical now to call it a Daemonic Spirit as, when we look at Furies and Soulgrinders, other than Be'lakor and FW character no real Chaos Undivided Daemons seem to excist anymore? Ah well. Stranger things have happened hehe.

 

Cheers,