++ The Brotherhood of Dust - A Thousand Sons Community ++

[Archaeinox]

Been using Ahriman in almost every army list since 2005 and even then I say that the Exalteds are better in all cases UNLESS Ahriman is leading his formation and manifesting on 3+. It's so damn good that I don't even put Ahriman as the command slot in anything anymore.

 

In a basic list with under 15 warp charge there is no reason to waste warp charge on Ahriman when he manifests on 4+. Better off taking a dude on disc with spell familiar.

[Sonoftherubric21]

Been using Ahriman in almost every army list since 2005 and even then I say that the Exalteds are better in all cases UNLESS Ahriman is leading his formation and manifesting on 3+. It's so damn good that I don't even put Ahriman as the command slot in anything anymore.

 

In a basic list with under 15 warp charge there is no reason to waste warp charge on Ahriman when he manifests on 4+. Better off taking a dude on disc with spell familiar.

 

you think so? even within maxed cabals or a sehkmet conclave you think an exatled is better? doesnt his 'shoot same spell 3 times" kinda make up for that? 

 

I mean the reason you take most sorcerers is for buffing, Ahriman is, however, specifically a Psychic machine gun. I would think his use and the use of Exalteds tend to be separated a little in terms of application (though to be fair ive had sucess with both in equal measure, although Ahriman tossing buffs is obviously weaker without access to a familiar since he cant "reliably" 1-2 dice a spell) 

[Archaeinox]

If you take a maxed War Cabal you probably don't have Ahriman's Exiles which means he is generating on a 4+ and that just blows because he should be throwing witchfires (this we can agree upon). Might as well make your casting reliable and just take spell familiars where possible. 

 

Trust me, I'm the first to start launching triple of one Witchfire (our gaming club counts a single Witchfire as 1 power regardless of how many times he uses that particular one), but it's just not worth burning my entire pool on Ahriman. If you get Devolution, you will want to throw that at Monstrous Creatures like Carnifex and whatnot so that's 5 dice right there.. You won't get it on 4 without a spell familiar because: Tzeentch. Like I said, he eats a lot of your army's dice and I'd rather not bring him at all now because that 3++ is sick as F.

 

What I said is no big secret, especially to you since you know your gak, but its for the benefit of others considering him in smaller lists under 1500 especially.

[Prot]

The thing with Exiles is it's really the super priced LibCon Chaos style. It's not as efficient, doesn't have access to Tiggy, but it's (I think) the best thing we have. I like the re-rolls but the price goes through the roof on too many Spell Familiars. Then the issue becomes casting enough powers, vs trying to pass them.

 

In the Max Cabal I had no problem running Ahriman. I still think he's vital because he's guaranteed (almost ) to spam certain powers. Exalted's will always be restricted by power pools, not passing them. Getting handicapped by too many junk powers trumps being able to pass them easier in my book.

[Dallas Drake]

True, but sometimes against certain opponents the triple Witchfire is just too important though (even if it does burn a chunk of your dice). I don't know how I'd take on a Knight without Heretech & Ahriman. He should have access to a familiar though, silly he doesn't.

[Xenith]

 

Been using Ahriman in almost every army list since 2005 and even then I say that the Exalteds are better in all cases UNLESS Ahriman is leading his formation and manifesting on 3+. It's so damn good that I don't even put Ahriman as the command slot in anything anymore.

 

In a basic list with under 15 warp charge there is no reason to waste warp charge on Ahriman when he manifests on 4+. Better off taking a dude on disc with spell familiar.

 

you think so? even within maxed cabals or a sehkmet conclave you think an exatled is better? doesnt his 'shoot same spell 3 times" kinda make up for that? 

 

I mean the reason you take most sorcerers is for buffing, Ahriman is, however, specifically a Psychic machine gun. I would think his use and the use of Exalteds tend to be separated a little in terms of application (though to be fair ive had sucess with both in equal measure, although Ahriman tossing buffs is obviously weaker without access to a familiar since he cant "reliably" 1-2 dice a spell) 

 

 

Reality check here.

 

"Psychic machine gun" is not really correct, you cannot deny the witch a machine gun.

 

Those 3 witchfires that you want Ahriman to harness. Assume they're WC1.  If you want to guarantee them, then you need to throw 3 dice at each of them. 

 

That's 9 power dice, which costs you in the region of 650+ points of sorcerer to generate. For those 3 witchfires. 

 

Are those really more effective than an equivalent number of points of vindicators, or predators?

 

Without the 3+ harness or a familiar, Ahriman has to throw 5 dice at at WC2 power.

 

He just isn't very efficient., in my eyes. He should really harness on a 3+ basic, and the exiles formations adds a flat +1 to harness. 

[Thousand Eyes]

Ally in some Brimstone Horros, 30 points for a psychic dice.

[Charlo]

Ally in some Brimstone Horros, 30 points for a psychic dice.

 

This is a cheesy (kinda?) but also very fluffy point. Plus they are obj sec and can hide out of sight (dey smol) capturing objectives in a hilarious manner.

 

Plus I really like the army fantasy of the 1KSons surrounded by loads of kinds of horrors just absorbing the psychic energy from them and blasting at the foe :D Wizard minion style.

 

On Arhiman - equating him to points is hard, especially as he's a psyker AND he has unique abilities. I think in the context of daemonic allies too he gets even easier power dice for his stuff so that lowers the cost of the 3 witch fires and in that, no other single psyker can scream a WK/ Riptide off the board or unload a staggering number of haywire hits into scary vehicles.

 

I'm agreed that he needs to be in the exiles though so really pump out the damage as casting on a 66% chance instead of a 50% is huge and letting the Exalteds get their own buff powers off on a 3+ re-roll, that frees up more dice for the big man (or Magnus, if you are playing that crazy game) is more psy-money in the bank.

[Dolchiate Remembrancer]

 

Ally in some Brimstone Horros, 30 points for a psychic dice.

 

This is a cheesy (kinda?) but also very fluffy point. Plus they are obj sec and can hide out of sight (dey smol) capturing objectives in a hilarious manner.

 

Plus I really like the army fantasy of the 1KSons surrounded by loads of kinds of horrors just absorbing the psychic energy from them and blasting at the foe Wizard minion style.

 

On Arhiman - equating him to points is hard, especially as he's a psyker AND he has unique abilities. I think in the context of daemonic allies too he gets even easier power dice for his stuff so that lowers the cost of the 3 witch fires and in that, no other single psyker can scream a WK/ Riptide off the board or unload a staggering number of haywire hits into scary vehicles.

 

I'm agreed that he needs to be in the exiles though so really pump out the damage as casting on a 66% chance instead of a 50% is huge and letting the Exalteds get their own buff powers off on a 3+ re-roll, that frees up more dice for the big man (or Magnus, if you are playing that crazy game) is more psy-money in the bank.

 

I was starting to consider putting in the brimstone formation along with a TS CAD. As a backfield threat, it's pretty sweet!(and +3WC)

[Prot]

True, but sometimes against certain opponents the triple Witchfire is just too important though (even if it does burn a chunk of your dice). I don't know how I'd take on a Knight without Heretech & Ahriman. He should have access to a familiar though, silly he doesn't.

 

Exactly. This is what I'm saying. Ahriman is your best shot in the entire codex at getting those key powers. Without them you might be eating a few stomps. With them you can dissasemble a Knight quicker than Belasarius Cawl and 10 of his best servitors! ;)

[Sonoftherubric21]

 

 

Been using Ahriman in almost every army list since 2005 and even then I say that the Exalteds are better in all cases UNLESS Ahriman is leading his formation and manifesting on 3+. It's so damn good that I don't even put Ahriman as the command slot in anything anymore.

 

In a basic list with under 15 warp charge there is no reason to waste warp charge on Ahriman when he manifests on 4+. Better off taking a dude on disc with spell familiar.

 

you think so? even within maxed cabals or a sehkmet conclave you think an exatled is better? doesnt his 'shoot same spell 3 times" kinda make up for that? 

 

I mean the reason you take most sorcerers is for buffing, Ahriman is, however, specifically a Psychic machine gun. I would think his use and the use of Exalteds tend to be separated a little in terms of application (though to be fair ive had sucess with both in equal measure, although Ahriman tossing buffs is obviously weaker without access to a familiar since he cant "reliably" 1-2 dice a spell) 

 

 

Reality check here.

 

"Psychic machine gun" is not really correct, you cannot deny the witch a machine gun.

 

Those 3 witchfires that you want Ahriman to harness. Assume they're WC1.  If you want to guarantee them, then you need to throw 3 dice at each of them. 

 

That's 9 power dice, which costs you in the region of 650+ points of sorcerer to generate. For those 3 witchfires. 

 

Are those really more effective than an equivalent number of points of vindicators, or predators?

 

Without the 3+ harness or a familiar, Ahriman has to throw 5 dice at at WC2 power.

 

He just isn't very efficient., in my eyes. He should really harness on a 3+ basic, and the exiles formations adds a flat +1 to harness. 

 

 

While you make some very interesting points I disagree, simply because outside of theory hammer I have seen Ahriman prop up lists on his own. 

 

So while he "isnt very efficient" he sure as hell makes up for it in the raw power department. My average list has 12-18 power dice before the power-dice roll. If he needs every single one, BUT gets the job done....who cares?  

 

Using heretek and shriek i have seen him blow 400+ points off the table in a single turn (allbeit INCREDIBLY lucky but aside the point)  I have never seen a 260 point figure do something quite like that. He IS supported by the army through warp charge, but thats how a casting army works. Certain models will always suck up warp charges. Even in games where i use 1-3 exalteds, the Exalteds almost always hog warp charge (Minus perhaps a casting of force here and there) 

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I've seen him turn a knight into a rubix cube, heretech is pretty awesome on him.
So faced dark elder, it was not pretty...
Just how do we deal with the wraiths/mc units they field? the massed t7 just covered everything else and it just felt like  I could do nothing.
Also the Lore of Tzeentch really, really hurts the war coven.

[Sonoftherubric21]

I've seen him turn a knight into a rubix cube, heretech is pretty awesome on him.

So faced dark elder, it was not pretty...

Just how do we deal with the wraiths/mc units they field? the massed t7 just covered everything else and it just felt like  I could do nothing.

Also the Lore of Tzeentch really, really hurts the war coven.

 

T7? Can you explain his list? 

 

Generally Monsterous Creatures make us laugh. We have force weapons Galore and staves on easy access. Take a Exalted (or even regular sorcerer) on a disc. he fails 1 save, no FNP available; SPLAT. 

 

Against the full size wraith constructs from regular eldar I tend to go with Baneseer. all around a great weapon. Great against wraiths as it goes against their LD not toughness. 

 

I beleive all the wraiths only have 3+ armor at best so in shooting we arent "great" against them but just shoot enough bolt-shells at them and itll do the job eventually. 

[Prot]

For any T value related issues I just have Ahriman lean on Shriek.

 

Otherwise I just want to say I have no ulterior motive here, I'm just trying to share experiences to help,each other and I realize a lot of people don't have the luxury of playing as much as I do.

 

So that being said I admit I came from the anti Ahriman group. I love the guy background wise but he is woefully overpriced, but so are exalted sorcs. If you are like me and have spent time with Ultramarines/Tigurius/LibCon and Grey Knights too, then you can't honestly believe the majority of Thousand Sons Psychic element is appropriately costed. There's a long list of reasons for this, but I don't want to derail my point here.

 

So where I'm coming from is even though I strongly believe the above, Ahriman is almost mandatory as your Psychic linchpin in a normal Thousand Sons list. I don't like this being the case but I've slowly found him to work his way onto almost all my lists.

[Sonoftherubric21]

For any T value related issues I just have Ahriman lean on Shriek.

 

Otherwise I just want to say I have no ulterior motive here, I'm just trying to share experiences to help,each other and I realize a lot of people don't have the luxury of playing as much as I do.

 

So that being said I admit I came from the anti Ahriman group. I love the guy background wise but he is woefully overpriced, but so are exalted sorcs. If you are like me and have spent time with Ultramarines/Tigurius/LibCon and Grey Knights too, then you can't honestly believe the majority of Thousand Sons Psychic element is appropriately costed. There's a long list of reasons for this, but I don't want to derail my point here.

 

So where I'm coming from is even though I strongly believe the above, Ahriman is almost mandatory as your Psychic linchpin in a normal Thousand Sons list. I don't like this being the case but I've slowly found him to work his way onto almost all my lists.

 

Isnt that more the fact that the Mark of Tzeentch does literally *nothing* to benefit casting? 

 

That and the base squads coming with sorcerers (and the Rubric sorcerer being GROSSLY overcosted for what he is capable of). I dont think Exalteds are overpriced at all, if you compare them to the basic Librarian....they kinda wipe the floor with them in several ways don't they? Stat wise certainly (libcon not withstanding as we have an equivalent do we not? Coven or Exiles I suppose?) 

 

As for Ahriman; I think either Him or an Exalted slot in fairly easily but are both expensive, if the list isn't focused "Exclusively" on casting then you can do without Ahriman but alot of the lists just do in fact get better with him. Hes excellent if overpriced. (What can I say; love the challenge ;-)

[Leonite]

Ok, question for you guys: The sorcerer in a Scarab Occult unit: Gun or Sword?

[Minsc]

Gun.
 

I don't think it's worth loosing those 1/2 twinlinked S4 AP3 shots for one more attack in close combat.

The option to attack with the power sword for AP3 is nice, but I'd probably attack with the force staff 90% of the time anyway. (Remember it's a power sword, not a force sword.)

 

Going with the gun also saves you 5 pts (oddly enough, since it should've been a free swap imo.)

[Leonite]

Already done, realized that it's more of a shooty unit than a stabby unit, if that makes sense.

 

(Plan is to glue both squads I have at full armarment, like complete with Soulreaver and Hellfyre, good idea, bad idea?)

[Minsc]

I have 15 Occults and I glued them as 3x 5 man squads (so I can play a full War Cabal) complete with Sorcerer, Helfyre and Soulreaper in each.

 

I have yet to actually use the Soulreapers though, they are usually the first thing to go when I need points, (90 pts for 3 Soulreapers is *alot*) and I...always need points.

[Archaeinox]

After seeing Sonoftherubric21's lists I am regretting putting the Soulreaper and Heavy Warpflamer on my 3 units. They do not get much use in the game and let's be honest, when I have to make some saves I am rolling at least 2-3 1's on a single unit in a turn and that fething sucks.

[Sonoftherubric21]

After seeing Sonoftherubric21's lists I am regretting putting the Soulreaper and Heavy Warpflamer on my 3 units. They do not get much use in the game and let's be honest, when I have to make some saves I am rolling at least 2-3 1's on a single unit in a turn and that fething sucks.

 

I tend to use the reaper but when using Max War cabal at 1850-2000 you definitely need to scrimp. 

 

If you are just using 1-2 units of Scarab (or a Sehkmet Conclave) I always use reapers. 

 

and you've already seen my penchant for 10 man Rubricae squads, i almost always dip into that soul reaper when possible. 

 

But again we as 1k sons players suffer for points in alot of our formation based lists lol. 

[Prot]

At 1850 I'm trying to make a fun list with a War Cabal to get that 10 man Rubric squad in.

 

Ahriman + infiltrate + 10 Rubes w/Cannon and Rhino doesn't seem that bad. That being said I can only get one 10 man squad in.... might just have to live with that as the points... wow I never tried fielding a 10 man Rube Cannon squad..335 (with Dozer blade). Ouch. I compare it to my 5 man loaded Scarab squads which have a LVL2 sorc and more probably output and survivability and it's really a hard sell. I think I'll try it for fun though. ;)

[Sonoftherubric21]

Ladies and Gentlemen (fellow dust bunnies!) 

I did post this in my tactica thread, however I felt this needed to be seen by the majority of the 1k sons community as its an interesting bit of information regarding the "Favoured of Tzeentch" and the "Max-units War cabal" specifically..... just some information some may find informative or useful as I know a large segment of the community uses a War Cabal in some form or another.  

 

-------

 

-Maxed War Cabal Addendum- 

 

So I Had a friend who is far better at math then I am go over some base statistics for me and give a rough outline of Rubrics within a War Cabal. 

We all know the Terminators become nigh-on ridiculous with the very simple 1/36 failures assuming they retain the 2+ armor save (incredible), but alot of people I see take the Rubrics as a form of "tax"....and that's 450 points in Space marine TAX just to take the War Cabal while completely neglecting the Rubricae you bought with it. I have always thought this was a mistake in practice for the War cabal at 1850 or at 2000. (to say nothing of above) 

Well I sat down and gave it an in-depth going over, and after seeing the stats for it I am quite pleased with how even basic Rubricae work within the max cabal, this is why I (as you may have noticed) jack up my squad sizes for rubrics within the War Cabal, usually aiming at getting a soul reaper or a big enough squad to threaten most valid targets for at LEAST one squad, if not 2-3 where possible. 

 

The actual survival percentage is roughly 2/9 wounds taken for every save.  it boiled down to a rough 78% chance for a Basic power-armored rubricae to survive. so out of every time you roll the save you are looking at a 22% chance of failure overall, this includes the re-roll obviously for the 3+ save, factoring in the failing a save on a 2 of the dice roll, followed by failing on a 1 or a 2 on the re-roll.

 

This means that in comparison to regular terminators (a 1/6 chance to fail, boiling down to a 16% chance to fail, or an 84% pass rate) we in comparison within the formation gain a 78% pass rate, and a 22% failure rate.... Translation; our Rubric marines are right behind terminators in staying-power. Just shy of terminator saves against non ap 1/2/3 weapons. 

Against ap 1/2 weapons (if we assume that a blessing such as Force is active) you are looking at a unit of marines that out-survives just about any terminator in the game....even storm shield users due to the 3++ also gaining the re-rolls from the Cabal. 

So not only do you have something approaching terminator survivabilty, but it also doesn't care much about AP weaponry (if at all) due to a natural 4++ and a blessed 3++ and as such is that much more difficult to remove. And this is for about 12 points less then the "standard" terminator (as most I believe are 35 points for most terminators)

 

Its a very interesting thing to see, granted I have seen them perform on the table against orks, necrons, and eldar, so I have already seen that the Basic Rubrics within the Max-War Cabal are completely worth it for their points cost.....and bring them to fluff-levels of survivability but I thought I would suss out the details for the community at large and perhaps give some factual data for the opinion I hold.

[Leonite]

Oh, I can back the survivability of your standard Rubrics. I used them a bunch in a doubles tournament I had at my local GW once, and the Thousand Sons consistently were almost always the last ones to die, basically sitting there stubbornly like the biggest freaking tarpit.

[Prot]

SonoftheRubric:

 

This is excellent info and mathematically confirms what I've been witnessing but am personally too ignorant of statistical math to figure out for myself.

 

But part of what your saying actually reinforces Scarab Occult purely on the basis of the sorcerer and easy access to the Hellfyre which I try to include as much as possible. Also the negative of slow and purposeful is worth considering.

 

So what positives are there to Dust Bunnies.... the soul reaper is modestly cheaper for some reason. And the sqaud fits in a rhino.

 

I do relate to the math though as I play in an environment that is very often robbing me of armour saves and this is where the Rubrics might seem like a good idea.

 

I have to say I think they messed up rubes but those flamers....darn. If they were only more moderately priced and didn't empower the opponent I'd actually love them since they fill a void. Even a free icon in the squad would have been a small but welcome idea.

 

On a side note I've used icons to no effect. But I intend to model them to differentiate the squads because they just look cool.