BA Today

[Pendent]

I really don't know that the Librarian Dread is overcosted. It's a bit worse in assault than other dreads, but more than makes up for it with the massive durability increase from being a character and probably has better damage output overall due to smite.

[The Unseen]

I really don't know that the Librarian Dread is overcosted. It's a bit worse in assault than other dreads, but more than makes up for it with the massive durability increase from being a character and probably has better damage output overall due to smite.

 

Its still just T7 with 8 wounds, and it costs 200 pts. It only has 3 attacks, and smite causes an extra like 1 wound a turn on average. Will it die early? Probably not, will it ever kill enough to make its points cost back? Probably not. Cause its either walking to take advantage of the fact that its a character, which means it won't be doing much early game if you opponent wants to avoid it, and if you put it in a Stormraven, the character status doesn't really matter, and your better off bringing a Dread with a much better damage/points ratio. An Ironclad is just over HALF its cost.

[Panzer]

 

I really don't know that the Librarian Dread is overcosted. It's a bit worse in assault than other dreads, but more than makes up for it with the massive durability increase from being a character and probably has better damage output overall due to smite.

 

Its still just T7 with 8 wounds, and it costs 200 pts. It only has 3 attacks, and smite causes an extra like 1 wound a turn on average. Will it die early? Probably not, will it ever kill enough to make its points cost back? Probably not. Cause its either walking to take advantage of the fact that its a character, which means it won't be doing much early game if you opponent wants to avoid it, and if you put it in a Stormraven, the character status doesn't really matter, and your better off bringing a Dread with a much better damage/points ratio. An Ironclad is just over HALF its cost.

 

It's T7 with 8 wounds and the character keyword. Aka can't get shot at unless it's the nearest. ;)

[The Unseen]

 

 

I really don't know that the Librarian Dread is overcosted. It's a bit worse in assault than other dreads, but more than makes up for it with the massive durability increase from being a character and probably has better damage output overall due to smite.

 

Its still just T7 with 8 wounds, and it costs 200 pts. It only has 3 attacks, and smite causes an extra like 1 wound a turn on average. Will it die early? Probably not, will it ever kill enough to make its points cost back? Probably not. Cause its either walking to take advantage of the fact that its a character, which means it won't be doing much early game if you opponent wants to avoid it, and if you put it in a Stormraven, the character status doesn't really matter, and your better off bringing a Dread with a much better damage/points ratio. An Ironclad is just over HALF its cost.

 

It's T7 with 8 wounds and the character keyword. Aka can't get shot at unless it's the nearest.

 

 

I mentioned that? And I also mentioned that it doesn't matter, because it's still a melee dread with 3 attacks. So yeah, it's pretty difficult to shoot it to death if it walks, but it won't accomplish anything till turn 2 at the earliest, and probably not till turn 3. Unless you stick it in a Raven to transport it, in which case the fact that it's a character doesn't matter, it isn't getting shot, the Raven is. For a handful of extra points I'd rather take the Relic Contemptor, which is tough enough to not care that it isn't a character, with a 2+ save, a 5++ invuln without relying on a psychic power, and I think 12 wounds? And it has an actual gun, like a twin-lascannon that hits on 3's if it moves, along with more attacks in close combat. Or if your wanting to go outside of what Blood Angels have access to, you can literally almost bring 2 Ironclad dreadnoughts for the price of 1 librarian dread. Can Ironclads be shot at easier? Of course, but their also T8 and together have double the wounds. AKA, tougher than a single character dread by far.

 

The Librarian Dread isn't some hidden gem, its an over-costed melee dread in a codex with 2 others of the same, and desperately needs both a price drop and an increase in damage output to be worth bringing. Well, that or a much better discipline to pull powers from. If Wings was still a power, having a character dreadnought that can move 12" a turn with the FLY Keyword, that's a fair bit better of a starting point. But right now it's either too slow, doesn't have enough oomph, or both. Like a lot of Blood Angel unique units now that I think about it.

[Crimson Ghost IX]

*Snip

 

The Librarian Dread isn't some hidden gem, its an over-costed melee dread in a codex with 2 others of the same, and desperately needs both a price drop and an increase in damage output to be worth bringing. Well, that or a much better discipline to pull powers from. If Wings was still a power, having a character dreadnought that can move 12" a turn with the FLY Keyword, that's a fair bit better of a starting point. But right now it's either too slow, doesn't have enough oomph, or both. Like a lot of Blood Angel unique units now that I think about it.

*Snip

Just grabbing on to the end of this discussion =)

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I totally agree with your points Unseen. Well made. Our toys need some codex lovings real bad right about now. 

 

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Libby Dread is overcosted and there are better units for sure. If you wanna consider allied Ironclads go IG/AM instead I'm thinking.

I hear great~great grandpa Vostroyo knew how to make his guns shoot further. Too bad the Imperium lost that old skool hand crafted know how.

Those dang martians don't have enough soul is the problem...

 

Maybe our master artisans will do something like that... thinking pretty long odds for that.

 

Anyhow,

The Libby dread is unique and probably effective enough tho (considering the internal index balance for us) for some fun at ye olde average weekend game with beer etc.

The trick you see is to get your opponent drunk so you have a chance to kill things with said dread and make it shine =)

 

Kinda doubting that anybody is seriously considering taking it all with an actual Blood Angels force for their next local WAAC tourney at this point.

So get some beerhammer or something in and have fun. It has been working pretty good for me anyhow.

 

 

Our army is indeed overcosted and again sub optimal out of the gate and there are more and more better options elsewhere all the time for certain.

At least nobody refuses to play in terror when you say you have Blood Angels so we still got that going for us right now... =)

 

It's gonna be like this until the codex at least. Try and make the best of it I'm thinking. Take that dread for a spin on the table says I. It is actually pretty decent considering our state of options and the internal balance of the index. It IS a hidden sucky gem in our pile of suck =)

 

Hopefully our better days will come too, sooner rather than later.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Crimson Ghost IX

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I've been thinking about going all in with a primaris only BA army. I think I'm going to go BA after Baal, and do a quick scheme: Mephiston Spray, Crimson Shade, kindle flame highlights.

 

The all primaris Successor could also be a candidate. Im wondering if that's the way I need to go. I know several have stated they have had major success with Primaris over tac-squads.

[Karhedron]

I think that Intercessors are better than Tactical squads if you are just taking them for the Troop tax. I am not convinced the Primaris range is large enough to stand on its own without regular Marines. No melta and the only lascannons are on the very expensive Repulsor. I love plasma for its versatility but I am not convnced Hellblasters are sufficient heavy support by themselves. Edited September 30, 2017 by Karhedronuk

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I think that Intercessors are better than Tactical squads if you are just taking them for the Troop tax. I am not convinced the Primaris range is large enough to stand on its own without regular Marines. No melta and the only lascannons are on the very expensive Repulsor. I love plasma for its versatility but I am not convnced Hellblasters are sufficient heavy support by themselves.

Having 10 wounds on an MSU ObSec squad seems really good. I also can just take knights for the oompf if need be.

[Thoridon]

Intercessors are lower points efficiency for damage output, higher for durability (vs single damage weaponry). If hit with 2D+ weaponry they become expensive Tacticals without the access to Heavies / Specials.

 

They certainly have a use, depending on what you're facing, but for me I'm not taking them in BA as I'm staying normal Marines here. I'll probably run a small detachment of pure-Primaris allies at some point, to enjoy the models.

[bc99]

I don't post often, but came here to vent a little bit. I played a recent games. Index BA vs. Codex AM. Basically my buddy got a bunch of stuff off the internet and was able to cobble together his AM index from there. He's got one on order so we'll have the real thing soon.

 

Anyway, just thoughts off the top of my head.

 

He played Cadians,  he had no desire to try other armies and had no proxies anyway. He is very WYSIWYG anyway, and likes to do a lot of converting. He had 2 russes, some platoons, some heavy weapons squads, sentinels, and... I think that was it. No conscripts. I believe one of the infantry squads was a vet squad. A master commisar, too.

 

I had tactical squad, some scouts (snipers/bolters), Baal Pred, DC, and assault marines. HQ was captain, and chaplain.

 

Who in the world decided Leman Russ Tanks needed to be able to shoot twice in a round? Was making tanks powerful again the desire or did they just want to beef up the expensive models to boost sales?  Even a basic Russ (he brought 2) was putting out a ton of fire and he had some stratagems or orders to let him reroll.

 

Orders. There are too many. Way to many. I think he had 3-4 commanders, something like that. Anyway, it got confusing ,and slowed the game down. He could do soooo many. It made his units soooo effective. That's the idea I know. Maybe a little too many orders though.

 

Quick recap, we played get the relic mission. I advanced towards it and suffered withering fire from his russes. They basically pounded my tacticals into oblivion and took out my baal pred. My tacticals were in cover and did okay surviving, but they were pretty ineffective otherwise. Their missle launcher did scrape some wounds off one of the russes. My Devs took out one russ after like 2 rounds but died shortly thereafter. My DC arrive via deepstrike and were unable to get into charge. They died. My scout snipers killed one of the commanders, but it took like 2-3 turns. I only had 5. In the end there was really no reason to continue I had no way of getting to the relic. My assault marines actually started on table and had melta guns. They were fast movers and helped end the russ that died to devastators. They were then destroyed.

 

Now, this was not a pointed out serious game. This was a quick match to allow him to try the army. The goodies that he had, though, especially the insanity of the russes, and the never ending orders, just left me in awe. I have an group of IG models and will probably build up a small contingent. They're really good.

 

Vent over. I left that here with high hopes for our codex. I hope they can bring the same level of amazing to the Blood Angels.I just don't know how I'd be able to ever come close to stopping his army though he has perfect match of super-tough minis and lots of cheap soldiers. Amazing.

 

Ciao!

 

 

[durdle-durdle]

Yeah, one of my friends plays guard a lot, and for years another friend and I have been trying to convince him to get a second army because we both hate fighting his "stand still and shoot" guard. I'd even offered a start collecting box of deathwatch I hadn't been able to sell to him free of charge.

 

Last night, he called asking if he could have the deathwatch box, because there was no way we could have an actual game with the rules revealed. I even considered switching to codex:space marines instead for the time being, but I don't think even that holds a candle to the baals out power/flexibility/durability of the guard codex. I'm just not sure how to deal with it.

 

I'm considering starting a second, shooty army for use to diametrically oppose the blood angels, and play more frequently until we have an actual codex or changes in the chapter approved. Maybe tempestus. Something not power armored. Idk.

[Charlo]

The AM codex is genuinely phenomenal in how fluffy and powerful it is with tonnes of flavour too.

 

The buffs to things like Russes and the Superheavies (they all lost the penalty of moving + shooting heavy weapons and gained a D6 on shots for the main guns) means GW aren't afraid to get changing with the rules.

[Aothaine]

Just want to point out that balancing always works this way. You upgrade something a lot, then you downgrade it a little bit at a time. AM is really strong. They should be. This game has always been about numbers and they have a lot of bodies. Remember that as the codexes come out those armies are going to be difficult to deal with if you are still using the index. Give it time. Don't freak out. Once we get our codex we'll be fine. Besides there are plenty of units that can ace guard. 

 

But the most important thing I can mention here is play to the objectives and use Terrain. Terrain is so important in this edition and people keep forgetting that or play with very little terrain. 

 

IMHO, the game is starting to require tactical thinking in a higher degree. It is going to take time for people to adapt.

[The Unseen]

Just want to point out that balancing always works this way. You upgrade something a lot, then you downgrade it a little bit at a time. AM is really strong. They should be. This game has always been about numbers and they have a lot of bodies. Remember that as the codexes come out those armies are going to be difficult to deal with if you are still using the index. Give it time. Don't freak out. Once we get our codex we'll be fine. Besides there are plenty of units that can ace guard.

 

But the most important thing I can mention here is play to the objectives and use Terrain. Terrain is so important in this edition and people keep forgetting that or play with very little terrain.

 

IMHO, the game is starting to require tactical thinking in a higher degree. It is going to take time for people to adapt.

Nah.

Game doesn't have any more tactical depth than it used to.

We've moved to different shallows.

In fact, most people are making the argument it's shallower than 7th.

It's certainly less complicated, and that's good, because 7th was a bloated whale carcass of a game system rotting on the beach.

 

And terrain?

Guard love terrain, they have squishy T3 5+ saves that love getting a 4+ in cover versus small arms.

 

And guard, just like all other armies, should have strengths and weaknesses. But right now, the system rewards high impact shooting and lots of cheap bodies, which are IG's primary strengths.

 

If somebody wants to, they can bring enough bodies a tac list has no chance of chewing through enough of them over the course of the game, and still have more than enough points left for teeth.

 

Thankfully they did nerf conscripts a fair bit at least.

 

And I'm so glad yet another person has seemingly infinite faith in the GW rules team /s

 

But I'm not going to hold my breath for a codex that fixes the many problems we specifically, and other similar factions, have. They have a awfully long way to go, and they keep making that gap bigger with every new codex release that heavily favors shooting and either hordes of infantry or ridiculously tough super heavies.

[durdle-durdle]

I just realized a company vet with jump pack, stormbolters, and chainsword costs the same as a sternguard with just the special bolter/storm bolter, but doesn’t need a drop pod to get into a good position. Think i’ll Be adding an extra vanguard detatchment of company vets with storm bolters and a chainsword to my lists.

[Indefragable]

I just realized a company vet with jump pack, stormbolters, and chainsword costs the same as a sternguard with just the special bolter/storm bolter, but doesn’t need a drop pod to get into a good position. Think i’ll Be adding an extra vanguard detatchment of company vets with storm bolters and a chainsword to my lists.

 

It's incredibly points efficient. The only real issue is that they essentially become better Tacticals/bolter Scouts, but don't get the benefits of Troops. And in this edition, we need all the special weapons/heavy hitting we can, so you have to ask yourself is it worth it to pay for Jump Vets w/ stormbolter/chainsword instead of Tacs or Scouts?  (no wrong answer, it's just a question you need to consider).

[durdle-durdle]

 

 

I just realized a company vet with jump pack, stormbolters, and chainsword costs the same as a sternguard with just the special bolter/storm bolter, but doesn’t need a drop pod to get into a good position. Think i’ll Be adding an extra vanguard detatchment of company vets with storm bolters and a chainsword to my lists.

It's incredibly points efficient. The only real issue is that they essentially become better Tacticals/bolter Scouts, but don't get the benefits of Troops. And in this edition, we need all the special weapons/heavy hitting we can, so you have to ask yourself is it worth it to pay for Jump Vets w/ stormbolter/chainsword instead of Tacs or Scouts? (no wrong answer, it's just a question you need to consider).

my answer would be that they can be deep struck into effective positions (within double tap range, in a building), and have double the rate of fire. Then in assault, they still have 2 attacks base + 1 for swapping their pistol for a chainsword. If the enemy tries to shift away, or you crush an entire flank, they can then easily redeploy with their jump packs, which tactical scant do. I'm actually considering doing a mix of 2 storm bolter vets, 2 plasma vets, and potentially giving the sgt an axe. I'm also considering just taking them as storm bolter squads and using the slightly cheaper assault marines as plasma caddies.

 

It also helps that most the games in my area come down to fighting for the table, so being better at holding objectives means very little to me.

Edited October 3, 2017 by durdle-durdle

[Charlo]

I'm purposefully avoiding units like Company Vets with exotic loadouts from the Index because I do not trust the codex to keep them too intact.

[Jolemai]

I'm purposefully avoiding units like Company Vets with exotic loadouts from the Index because I do not trust the codex to keep them too intact.

 

Like, say, dual hand flamers? ;)

[Charlo]

 

I'm purposefully avoiding units like Company Vets with exotic loadouts from the Index because I do not trust the codex to keep them too intact.

 

Like, say, dual hand flamers?

 

They were from 7th and you know it!

[Panzer]

I miss handflamer being good. :'(

[Karhedron]

Flamers of all sorts are very poor in 8th. For the points, they generate too few hits and are too restrictive in range. A flamer is worth about 2.5 bolters at up to 8" range and worthless beyond that. For the price, it is not worth taking. And Hand flamers are worse. :(

 

Sadly, this is the future.

[Panzer]

Flamers of all sorts are very poor in 8th. 

I disagree. It really depends on the unit. All flamer Crisis Suits is one of the best units T'au have currently.

[Damon Nightman]

Comparing the stormbolter to the hand flamer is sad :(

[Dont-Be-Haten]

Comparing the stormbolter to the hand flamer is sad :(

it's not even close.