BA Today

[Arkhanist]

 

"Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee everything they’re gaming with is easily available and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process."

 

Sounds like the end times are upon the likes of Sanguinary Priests and Company Vets with jump packs, for competitive play.

 

Hopefully when we get our new Codex they realise that certain options they dropped to the Index make more sense for us than the Codex version. Though I guess we might just have to wait and see what a future Primaris Sanguinary Priest gets for wargear.

What happened? Is there an update that I missed?

 

 

NOVA previews

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by Arkhanist

[appiah4]

I really hope they don't upgrade any of our characters to Primaris after seeing this Gundam meets Call of Duty meets Linkin Park atrocity.

Edited August 29, 2019 by appiah5

[SnorriSnorrison]

@Arkharnist

 

Thanks! Yeah not too sure about the legends. GW could simply put a JP on a priest by default, but they’d have to build a model for it...meh.

 

Not a fan of Shrike at all. Emo haircut, weird leg-exhausts and the grav-chute...

 

Be afraid for our Chaptermaster. Be very afraid.

[Majkhel]

Add to this: Pistol that has no chance of fitting the holster (especially since it got reinforced by metal...), spurs and the holy pigeon on his shoulder guard

Edited August 29, 2019 by Majkhel

[Thoridon]

The Priest is an interesting one as he's the only character we can't run with a jump pack if Index units are prohibited via a no-Legends application, yet the vast majority of our melee units we'd want to have him buff use jump packs. I fully understand their principle when it came to 8th - if it doesn't have a model it doesn't get in the Codex - but then characters like Captains still have the full range of customisation available, despite various wargear combinations requiring kitbashes.

 

They have said that they might've gone too far with some armies in demoting options to the Index and when I asked one of the rules team about the Priest at Warhammer Fest he indicated that with the new Codex updates they might look at specific cases like that where the Codex listing lacks synergy with other units but I don't expect it to change, being a pre-Primaris model. There's a chance though, given that even Lieutenants can take a jump pack for +1 PL/points - it would be a simple thing to add that line to our Priests.

 

I expect we'll have to wait for when we get unique BA Primaris, and if they're going to continue the approach of BA having extra 'jump' units we might get a Primaris Priest with the option to fly or stay on foot. That said, we haven't seen dedicated melee Primaris yet so at this point any speculation on future jump pack units is guesswork. For all we know any new Primaris melee unit might be restricted to fighting on the ground, and the same for supporting characters.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Thoridon

[Majkhel]

Well, a proper BA Primaris upgrade would have to be big or nothing. Primaris Sanguinary Priests, Sanguinary Guard, Death Company are all waiting and needed. Not to mention our plethora of special characters and more regular dudes like Captains and Lieutenants. All of them have JPs, so GW knows we expect this capability for new range as well. 

Actually Death Company could be the easiest box to prepare - I would imagine a mixed squad of Primaris in different types of mark X armor with some DC iconography and the possibility to mix in old marines. This would make lots of sense in my opinion.

 

I see some of those things answered with the new Shrike model - a HQ (Captain level) choice with jump pack equivalent and dedicated CC weapon. All this bodes well for us, aesthetics aside.

This is also a third(?) primaris model to sport a crux terminatus honors (the other being Calgar and one of the Aggressors). Sooo either this is becoming a mere trinket or we might hope for a rework on 1st Company Terminators at some point. But I'm aware that this is a long shot speculation.

[SnorriSnorrison]

Wouldn’t agree that chapter-specific BA units are waiting and needed actually. Rules updates to the existing models are more needed, and a few little tweaks along the lines of Flamers with 12” across 40k.

 

Until a big chapter-specific release happens, Primaris remain the streamlined vanilla version of space marines.

[Arkangilos]

I actually like Shrike much better than his old model, and can’t wait to see what our heroes will look like.

[Arkhanist]

Do primaris even suffer from the Black Rage yet? They have the thirst from Corbulo witnessing it in the codex (and the rules obvs). Primaris characters are also explicitly excluded from Death Visions of Sanguinius.

 

And a big part of the growing losses to the Black Rage has been the slowly accumulated damage to the BA geneseed, which was reset and stabilised by Cawl.

 

So GW can of course introduce it in the storyline if they want to, but there's no requirement to release Primaris Death Company yet. And without them, you also lose a big chunk of the reason for sanguinary priests and chaplains special roles.

 

GW seem content so far to have all primaris available for everyone, and distinguish through special rules and the odd character.

[Silverson]

I’d take either option really, our current unique units/models are still nice, some parts of units need fixing like encarmine weapons rules wise, a way to nerf slam captains that doesn’t invalidate a mono build blood angels army.

 

But at the Same time the current primaris range doesn’t give the close combat support that comes to mind when considering the iconic stand out units of the blood angels (same for all the “non codex complaint” factions)

[Thoridon]

I could see that happening, Arkhanist.

 

We know 'old' Marine units are staying for now, hence our separate Codex rather than becoming a Supplement. We have enough different stuff that we still warrant a separate book, though from what they said in the reveal it suggests we'll lose access to any Index unit/wargear option for competitive play. I could certainly see the reasoning behind streamlining Marine units, cutting some unique stuff and having all new Primaris models available to everyone. It makes balancing a bit simpler, is easier for production/stock and probably better for sales overall too - Death Company are great models but no one outside BA has a reason to buy them, whereas Vanguard Vets are applicable to any chapter.

 

I could see a point in the future where the old Marine units get dropped from Codices and we're only left with new Primaris stuff. At that point if our only unique models are a handful of special characters then there'd be no reason to keep us separate and we could be rolled back into the main Codex with a supplement. That's not to say we couldn't have a unique unit or two - I'd certainly hope to see Primaris Sanguinary Guard as they're a core lore unit for us, plus Ultramarines have their Tyrannic War vets - but if we end up in Primaris-only times would anyone expect to see Baal Repulsors? Furioso Redemptors? Stripping our unique units back to SG and 3-4 special characters would put us in a similar position to Ultramarines, and it could be possible for each of the main chapters to get a unique unit along with their characters to represent their preferred way of fighting.

 

There'd be justification for both retaining or dropping Death Company in a Primaris only range. It would be a shame to lose all the lore built up around them but the new GW does seem to be looking to streamline where possible. Right now there are probably too many units doing similar things with DC, VVs, SG, CVs, AMs all jump pack units able to be melee focused. I could see Marines as a faction ending up with a single jump pack melee unit that can either be equipped with all chainswords or all some kind of power weapon the way Inceptors can either have bolters or plasma. Gear them for either basic infantry clearing or hitting bigger targets. Then if we did get Primaris SG they'd be our extra tough unique elite unit (or they become our bodyguard unit).

Edited August 29, 2019 by Thoridon

[Thoridon]

On a related note, this whole Psychic Awakening thing makes me feel that some kind of AoS in-universe reset might be coming. We've had the years of lawsuits, name changes and models dropping out of production and I just have the feeling they know what direction they want to go in, but they realised from the Fantasy --> AoS thing that any similar change to 40k has to be gradual and not all at once.

 

Phase 1: New edition (8th) sees Primaris introduced and quite a few units/options made Index-only, 'supported' but not updated with CA points changes.

Phase 2 (now): 2 years on, a fresh cycle of Codices coincides with more new Primaris units and older Index-only options given one last look at points before that becomes their final status and they're made invalid for competitive play. Similar to how armies like Bretonnians got a basic update early in AoS.

Phase 3: A year or two of in-universe events, beginning with this Psychic Awakening. Things getting steadily more dire, cataclysmic events start occurring.

Phase 4: Something apocalytpic rips the universe apart or whatever they can come up with to tear it apart in a way that wipes certain things away while letting others survive. Maybe some inter-dimensional hole thingy opens to link this universe to another, introducing new alien factions they've spent the past 5 years developing with original and copywritable material. The Imperium as we know it ceases to exist but obviously Primaris Marines continue to forge a new mankind. Old Marines dropped completely, along with any armies/factions which don't have original IP they can protect. Maybe some factions evolve into a new form rather than disappearing.

 

Something like that could see us through to around 2021, at which point it'd be ~4 years of Primaris and old marines existing side by side. I could see GW thinking that would be sufficient time for a big change to not be so sudden and we get a new setting to take 40k forwards in the coming decades where our units are then Primaris-only.

 

We could even end up with 3 games; 30k for the Hersey era, 40k for the 'Legends' era and a new 50k beginning?

 

Just a thought!

Edited August 29, 2019 by Thoridon

[Majkhel]

That Inquisitor in the video does says that: "...for half of Mankind's Empire, the war is already lost."

 

But I really wouldn't like the repetition of ending the Old-Hammer...

[Arkangilos]

Do primaris even suffer from the Black Rage yet? They have the thirst from Corbulo witnessing it in the codex (and the rules obvs). Primaris characters are also explicitly excluded from Death Visions of Sanguinius.

 

And a big part of the growing losses to the Black Rage has been the slowly accumulated damage to the BA geneseed, which was reset and stabilised by Cawl.

 

So GW can of course introduce it in the storyline if they want to, but there's no requirement to release Primaris Death Company yet. And without them, you also lose a big chunk of the reason for sanguinary priests and chaplains special roles.

 

GW seem content so far to have all primaris available for everyone, and distinguish through special rules and the odd character.

I think it will come as the recruits draw more on the Blood of Sanguinius during their transformation. The Black Rage has gotten worse and one of the in universe theories was that it was a generational thing. Since Primaris are essentially generation one, they will be like the early BA, but as time goes on they’ll start developing the flaws.

[SnorriSnorrison]

On a related note, this whole Psychic Awakening thing makes me feel that some kind of AoS in-universe reset might be coming. We've had the years of lawsuits, name changes and models dropping out of production and I just have the feeling they know what direction they want to go in, but they realised from the Fantasy --> AoS thing that any similar change to 40k has to be gradual and not all at once.

 

Phase 1: New edition (8th) sees Primaris introduced and quite a few units/options made Index-only, 'supported' but not updated with CA points changes.

Phase 2 (now): 2 years on, a fresh cycle of Codices coincides with more new Primaris units and older Index-only options given one last look at points before that becomes their final status and they're made invalid for competitive play. Similar to how armies like Bretonnians got a basic update early in AoS.

Phase 3: A year or two of in-universe events, beginning with this Psychic Awakening. Things getting steadily more dire, cataclysmic events start occurring.

Phase 4: Something apocalytpic rips the universe apart or whatever they can come up with to tear it apart in a way that wipes certain things away while letting others survive. Maybe some inter-dimensional hole thingy opens to link this universe to another, introducing new alien factions they've spent the past 5 years developing with original and copywritable material. The Imperium as we know it ceases to exist but obviously Primaris Marines continue to forge a new mankind. Old Marines dropped completely, along with any armies/factions which don't have original IP they can protect. Maybe some factions evolve into a new form rather than disappearing.

 

Something like that could see us through to around 2021, at which point it'd be ~4 years of Primaris and old marines existing side by side. I could see GW thinking that would be sufficient time for a big change to not be so sudden and we get a new setting to take 40k forwards in the coming decades where our units are then Primaris-only.

 

We could even end up with 3 games; 30k for the Hersey era, 40k for the 'Legends' era and a new 50k beginning?

 

Just a thought!

Possible, but I’m not too convinced yet. Warhammer fantasy was very generic as far as fantasy settings go compared to other games, so that was an easy switch to flick. AoS, or 40k-lite, is the result of that, making it quite unique with weird-sounding names and sculpts only IP-ed to GW. Count-as obviously is a thing still, but it’s mitigated a bit.

 

40k is different enough in lore and miniatures to continue existing, in my opinion. Sure, a space marine is just about any dude with an exposure suit and a gun, but the stuff added to the other factions is still unique enough so they can put their IP on it. Primaris marines aren’t really copyright-able though, alternative manufacturers will just up the scale on their existing marines an job’s a good’n.

 

What does bother me is the timeline. The 8th edition, stuff falling apart, Primarchs returning...that at least indicates a big change to the universe. Perhaps they’ll scratch it all and make a new set of rules, starting with 1st edition, but I doubt GW would disallow or discontinue old Marines. Way to anger the majority of the playerbase.

[Zephaniah Adriyen]

 

"Once we’ve assigned them their final points, they won’t be part of that ongoing balance review – and we won’t be recommending Legends units for competitive tournaments. This means that event organisers and attendees alike can guarantee everything they’re gaming with is easily available and has been subject to the same rigorous balance and playtesting process."

 

Sounds like the end times are upon the likes of Sanguinary Priests and Company Vets with jump packs, for competitive play.

 

Hopefully when we get our new Codex they realise that certain options they dropped to the Index make more sense for us than the Codex version. Though I guess we might just have to wait and see what a future Primaris Sanguinary Priest gets for wargear.

What happened? Is there an update that I missed?

 

 

In an update, GeeDubs announced that they'd be keeping every old model and configuration of units supported, albeit in a non-competitive, non-playtested way. Basically, old stuff gets datasheets, but that same old stuff doesn't get updates or the same rigorous playtesting as actual stuff.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Zephaniah Adriyen

[Thoridon]

The Fantasy to AoS change was radical from a combination of that move away from genericness and the big change in rules to become more like 40k-light. A 40k 'revamp' wouldn#t need to be anywhere near as radical: As you say, a lot of factions are already far less generic, the rules system in 8th seems to be one they don't intend to tear up and it's a setting that has a big following.

 

What they could do is use a cataclysmic event to move the story on, tie up loose ends, drop anything they don't see as part of the game's future and introduce new lore / characters / beings. The Emperor feels a bit like dead weight at this stage, and with Primarchs returning could they decide to get rid of him? If this awakening causes some psychic backlash that finishes him off and the universe is split in two we could end up with two different human factions headed by different primarchs and each with a different ethos. Maybe the Imperium stays whole but they way it's organised gets a shake up. There's a lot they could do to freshen up the universe and move things to where they want the new future to begin (both in terms of lore and the models they produce/sell) without having to do something as radical as the AoS reboot. For AoS they dropped factions and created Stormcast as the new poster boys in a revolution. For 40k Primaris are being drip-fed over time so if old marines get dropped with a revamp it'll be less of a shock to the system and more of an evolution.

 

Though this is all hypothetical it would then provide the ideal time for GW streamline chapters like BA and SW to be more like Ultramarines with the mostly Codex units plus a handful of unique models. They could equally go the other way and really push the vampire / wolf aspects to make us vastly different but the way Primaris have been introduced suggests it's more likely to be the former. I could also be completely off the mark and 10 years from now we still have both sets of Marine models but the way they're now marking things as 'Legends' really makes me think we're going to end up with the new stuff as the future of our army in an updated/tested setting and older models in the Legends range being an optional casual mode with limited support so people can still use older collections once those units are dropped from the 'main' setting. Whether they move the timeline on to 41k / 50k or whatever I have no idea, but if 3 years from now something along these lines hasn't happened I'll paint an Ultramarine as a forfeit.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Thoridon

[SnorriSnorrison]

What do you mean exactly by “pushing the vampire/wolf aspects”? MORE wolfy-wolfness on the Space Wolves that have Wolf Amulets, belts, Lord, chariots, priests, Lone, thunder and fenrisian wolves sprinkled with some grim frost-axes, claws and a unit called Wulfen for the Angel’s sake? How do you even increase that? I mean they’re already past the point of absolute ridicule, why push them even further? :D

 

And while that is a different topic, I think the whole vampire thing has been toned down quite a bit with the Blood Angels. It’s more on the angelic side of things, with the underlying twin curse.

 

All possible, let’s see how this works out in the end. Speculations aside, I’d be bummed if GW decided to kill 40k in the way envisioned above because primaris marines are not my cup of tea - having only those as option in the “new new 41+k” will see me drop the system as a tabletop game quickly.

[Thoridon]

By pushing those aspects more I meant that right now we don't feel different enough from Codex marines to be treated as a completely different army. I'd agree that the vampyric aspect has been toned down for BA, we certainly feel a lot more Codex than the Wolves - Death Company are our most 'unusual' unit and they're still just hallucinating marines. We have a unique character in Sanguinary Priests rather than Apothecaries, Death Company and Sanguinary Guard but they're still just slightly different Marines. Our unique Dreadnoughts are still just slightly different variants. By keeping us separate it means that when updates like Codex 2.0 happen we end up with a wait to get similar new stuff like the doctrines.

 

It's a personal opinion but besides those slightly different variants there isn't enough difference in how BA operate compared to Codex marines at the moment to be a completely separate faction when it means we spend a higher portion of the time with a 'weaker' ruleset. If we were consolidated into the main Codex with a supplement then having all Marine chapters being updated at the same time might not be such a bad thing.

 

If we were more unique then it would be different, but strip out all the generic unit datasheets and we're left with a chapter tactic, stratagems, a few special characters and a few units that are slightly different than the generic units. That's not really any different to Ultramarines or Black Templars at the heart of it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing as BA are mostly portrayed as doing the same stuff as Codex marines, just that personally I don't see that much difference between us and Codex chapters. There's a lot of copy/paste for the vast majority of our units.

 

If there was a universe shakeup then as they've done in AoS they could make similar factions more unique. Not that I want them to, but they started down the path with Wulfen which are markedly different from regular Marines - more so than our angry chaps in black. They could do more units like that instead of 90% generic Marine units which would make BA / SW really stand out as not fitting as a Codex supplement, if they intend to keep us separate. SW are already closer to that status than we are, as besides wulfen they've had their grey hunters, long fangs etc. whereas we still used Tacticals and Devastators. (though they're still just marines with beards really).

 

Again, that's not a wish or an expectation, and it feels that for BA at least they're going in the opposite direction and making us more streamlined. But the more they do that the less our separate Codex feels necessary. If they are building up to some big universe changing events then they could use it as an opportunity to go either way; streamline us into a Codex supplement or go all out with radically different units/models to make us stand out. Then again, they could just keep us slightly different and separate

Edited August 29, 2019 by Thoridon

[Gingerninja]

I dont think we should be expecting all to much. I always try to imagine (when thinking about future releases) 40k as a product that a company i producing and selling.

From that perspective it makes sense to release the Primaris line over many many years. Look at the GW stockprice since 8th dropped, the CEO of GW has to make sure to uphold the hype and revenue for the owners to be pleased. So if we get a box-set we might get Primaris DC, a BA dreadnought and a new Primaris HQ. Then in a year or two they might get us a flyer and Primaris SG etc.

[Dont-Be-Haten]

I'm not going to lie. It's really hard not to play my CB's as read marines for a bit! the amount of customization is something I've always wanted. I really hope we get some amazing perks also!

[dread05]

Arent Blood Angels codex compliant for the most part tho? The Blood Angels have the same organization as a codex compliant chapter plus a few extra stuff to accommodate the twin curses. We still have the same companies that form tactical, devastator and assault squad, we still have the same 1st company setup. In comparison to Space wolves and Dark angels for example,who look to operate in legion strenght. Black Templars are less codex compliant than us although they're listed as such. Also the wiki lists the white scars as non codex compliant just cause they call their captains khans.

[Spyros]

Blood Angels and Dark Angels have very few divergences from the codex but GW advertises them as not codex compliant for variation purposes. The Space Wolves and Black Templars are good example of non-coex chapters, base on the way the companies and squads are organized and sized, or even the way the roles of each are different. 

[Indefragable]

I do love how the desires to be “Codex Space Marines: Blood Angels Supplement” vs “Codex: Blood Angels” tends to be directly proportional with which side has the newest shinies*.

 

Have faith, brothers. Our time will come. Patience is a virtue.

 

 

*of course there’s some stalwarts on both sides

 

 

 

<cynicism over>

[Thoridon]

It's not so much about the shinies, more that the vast majority of our units are shared. Instead of copy/pasting the generic Marine units between books, with the risk of inconsistencies, to me it would be more streamlined if we used the main Codex for those generic units and had a supplement for all the lore, heraldry, unique units and chapter-specific stratagems/traits etc.

 

We have ~60 generic units in the current Codex, and that's not including the new stuff like all the Phobos units. Probably up to around 70 with the releases since our Codex was printed.

 

That way when generic Marine stuff gets changed it applies to all chapters at the same time without the need for errata and FAQs stating it also applies to book x and book y but only to book z if (a+c)=3. Or having to print updated datasheets to override what's shown in your 'current' Codex as the same unit has out of date info. It also feels wrong that Space Wolves had to wait a year and a half to get their Codex after the main chapters got theirs. Codex+Supplements should keep the whole Marine update cycle in a shorter timeframe, rather than one or two arbitrarily set to be at the end so that some other factions get updated in between.

 

It's beside the point for now anyhow as we're likely staying separate as long as 'old marines' are supported. I just think in the future we might find things get more streamlined with less unique Primaris units than we have with the older range, and if we get to the point where all old marines become Legends then we could see all Marine chapters consolidated back together with these Supplements, each giving the detailed lore/background into and a few Chapter-specific rules/units for flavour. Grey Knights excepted.

Edited August 30, 2019 by Thoridon