[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Da Once & Future Git]

Hey all, with the new book, who can take phoenix spears? Is it still just characters? If so, my command squad are still sad...

[Terminus]

Yep, I'd be okay with it though, they end up costing the same as Phoenix terminators but with a 6++ in melee only.

[Caustic63]

@ Caustic63 - You make it sound like not playing 3rd Company is something bad If there is anything that I have learned from competitive 40k, it is that it is not the list that wins games, but the player. As such, I would reserve the 3rd Company for bleeding edge games like Eldar WAAC players at the store or something.

As for the lack of FA units, that is easily explained actually. Since I come straight from 40k, I own pretty much no FA unit seeing as they are not very good pretty much across all SM factions. Hence I never had need to buy any and focused to HS units instead. However, I am not opposed to introducing those into my 30k

 

I suppose I should mentioned that my Tacs are magnetized to serve as Vets and my Palatines will have magnetized Jump Packs.

 

As for the RoW, I like OoB. It is fluffy and would serve as my go-to list style for purely narrative games that are set after Istvann III. Pride is also on my list, seeing as I am a fan of Phoenix TDA and elite-looking armies. So we are in agreement there

 

Next to the OoB and Pride I have also gained interest in Maru Skara. I like the concept of using deployment and T1 to set up and kill the opponent in a masterfully executed flurry of striked in T2 and T3. However, I will need a good amount of FA choices and possibly different Elite choices to make it work. Any suggestions? I am not too attached to the Quad Mortars and as mentioned, I can run Palatines with JP if needed.

 

Cheers

 

It's fairly safe to say that apart from Bikes (who are better as Troops) the Fast Attack choices for Space Marines are pretty weak so I don't blame you for thinking that way. Horus Heresy is totally different though, and if you more thoroughly scan the FA section you'll see some choices that stand out. Javelin Speeders are a lot better then normal Land Speeders, simply because they have higher AV on the front and sides so they won't get wrecked by bolters, have Outflank for side armour shots and have significantly more firepower thanks to the ability to add HK Missiles. Outriders have the ability to all take TL Special Weapons, and while this makes them expensive you can combine this with their Scout special rule to deal some pretty devastating damage when they come in from the flanks. On them, I favour Plasmaguns. A Primaris Lightning makes an excellent armour hunter, since you can give them Kraken Missiles which are great for Spartan Hunting.

 

Maru Skara is a pretty interesting Rite of War that I've written about many times in this tactica. Ultimately its true power lies in Outflanking dangerous shooting units (since you cannot assault out of reserves on the same turn) such as Dreadnaughts, Veterans, Terminators, Javelins, Outriders, Jetbikes, Attack Bikes, and potentially a Primaris Lightning and then having them arrive on the exact turn you want them to (normally Turn 2). Outflank gives you a certainty of deployment that Deep Strike does not offer, since you can choose to move on anywhere along the rolled table edge.

[dansupvi]

how do people like to use Fulgrim in their lists? im building a 2500 3rd company elite list and was thinking about using him as my lord of war, but im not sure where i should put him. he cant fit in a dreadclaw with Phoenix Guard as they start at 5, so should I put him in a dreadclaw with Palatine Blades instead or run a larger Phoenix Guard unit in a Kharybdis/Spartan?

 

I've only actually bought the phoenix guard and kakophoni so far, any help would be awesome

[Frater Cornelius]

@ Caustic63 - Outriders are right off my list. I simply dislike bikes as they make no damn sense. Heck, even Cavalry makes far more sense for SM than Bikes do. As for the Jav, I had a look and I liked what I saw, tough I am not sure how many I would play. 2 Seems like the sweet spot. I would love to play 3 solo Javs, but that would take up all the slots and as such disallow a Dreadclaw for Palatines (though they can take JP and a Raider from HS, which I almost never fill beyond 2 slots anyway), and Jetbikes, which I am still split about seeing as they can only take 1 MM per 3 guys, wasting the HB shots. They do not bring as much firepower to the table anyway to be worth Outflanking with Maru Skara.

 

Which takes me to the Elite slot. Given the requirement to bring solid firepower to make full use of Outflank whenever it is advantageous, what units are worth using? I have Rylanor, which could waddle from the flank if I can not guarantee charges T1 with the increase threat range, which is very well possible when the opponent has first turn and moves out of his deployment zone. There are Veterans, but do they really shoot that well? Sure, they bring 2 Specials/Heavies, but it seems like Seekers would almost work better in a dedicated Proteus. AV14, 2 TLLC and a bunch of seeker appearing T2 on and opening fire is hard to ignore, even though they only have 2/3 chance of appearing on the right side). I would almost prefer melee Vets with FC in a Phobos as loadout for them.

This leaves us with Dreads. What sort of Dreads would be worth having on the flank as opposed to starting on the board? Is it even worth taking Dreads when you have the option of flanking Vets, Seekers, Jetbikes and Javs?

[Charlo]

Flanking Multimelta / dual fist grav dreads coming on as a talon would be pretty nasty. Just mess up a back line completely.

[Frater Cornelius]

Outflanking Talons is pretty handy. However, Grav does not care for facing and Ceramite make MM pretty mediocre. I was thinking more along the lines of Plasma Blasters and Assault Cannons to hit the side armour and hunt hidden/backfield units.

 

As for Jetbikes, I am playing with the idea of Volkite. Again, MM gets hit by Ceramite and those tanks that do not buy it are not that important to begin with. Volkite and HB go pretty well together in terms of targets. They can scratch side armour and hunt infantry. Tank hunting can always happen in melee and dedicated units like Javelins and possible Thud Guns.

 

Now, what is the general opinion on Vet loadout and viability of Seekers in Maru Skara?

[Theredknight]

Jet bikes? They are a bit over costed for a 1w model, but they have their uses. Mainly dodging between cover and turbo boosting into the back lines, I take 2 units of 3 with volkite and melta bombs. One or both get through great, if they can get a good read armour shot in even better.

I wouldn't flank them though, as if you position them right, you could be charging them into armour t2 instead of arriving!

[Frater Cornelius]

I would outflank them against something like an IW artillery line. That's the beauty. I can decide during deployment, depending on the enemy list and who goes first.

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, after some deliberation I am considering to adjust my plan. I simply decided that my EC are too slow. Hence I want to get rid of my Dreads expect for Rylanor, get rid of the Thud Guns, get rid of the Scorpius, possibly get rid of my Raider and Preds as well.

 

Instead I would be looking for 20/2x10 Assault Marines, Jetbikes, Jav Speeders, a Storm Eagle/Fire Raptor and play rites like Skyhunter Phalanx, Drop Vanguard Assault and Angels Wrath. JP- and Skimmer-heavy play also benefits from Maru Skara due to the movement bonus and it can be played with Pride as well if I stick my Phoenix Terminators in a Claw and my Vets into an Eagle.

 

I think that represents the EC I am planning a bit better than lame boring gun-lines.

[Da Once & Future Git]

Okay, after some deliberation I am considering to adjust my plan. I simply decided that my EC are too slow. Hence I want to get rid of my Dreads expect for Rylanor, get rid of the Thud Guns, get rid of the Scorpius, possibly get rid of my Raider and Preds as well.

 

Instead I would be looking for 20/2x10 Assault Marines, Jetbikes, Jav Speeders, a Storm Eagle/Fire Raptor and play rites like Skyhunter Phalanx, Drop Vanguard Assault and Angels Wrath. JP- and Skimmer-heavy play also benefits from Maru Skara due to the movement bonus and it can be played with Pride as well if I stick my Phoenix Terminators in a Claw and my Vets into an Eagle.

 

I think that represents the EC I am planning a bit better than lame boring gun-lines.

 

I'd like to see what lists you can come up with for these, I have a real hard time of it... Jetbikes just aren't great in assault (Outriders are the better option there, a bit cheaper & can have power weapons but only have a 3+ save), Assault marines are too pricey (really hoping that rumoured discount comes true).

 

I also think that 3rd Company Elite might still be the better option as then you can give the assault squads and outriders sonic shriekers.

[Frater Cornelius]

That is for traitors though. Ain't no treasonous filth in my house ;)

 

I will cook up some lists when I get the chance.

[Da Once & Future Git]

I know you're a loyalist but how's this kinda sound?

 

Eidolon, Jump pack, RoW - 3rd Co. Elite - 205

 

Elites

3 Laser Destroyer Rapiers - 165 (The Sun killers)

7 Palantine Warriors - Jump packs, 2 Phoenix spears, Sonic shriekers, Champ with Phoenix spear - 289

 

10 Assault Marines - 2 Power axes, Combat shields, Sonic shriekers, Sergeant with Phoenix spear - 345

10 Assault Marines - 2 Power axes, Combat shields, Sonic shriekers, Sergeant with Phoenix spear - 345

 

6 Outriders - 2 Power axes, Sonic shriekers, Melta bombs, Sergeant with Phoenix spear - 272

 

1 Leviathan Dreadnought - 1 claw, 1 drill, Phosphex discharges - 310

1 Dreadnought Drop pod - 65

 

Comes to 1996pts, looks pretty choppy although it will struggle against Armour with only the Dread, Lasers & Outriders, but it should be pretty fun I hope... What do you think?  Fast enough?

 

When you say fast do you still want shooty or more combat based?

 

I also don't want to go with a Gunline approach, and depending on how much the Assault squads drop in points, I think this could be quite a viable list competitively as well... maybe!

Edited March 21, 2016 by Da Once & Future Git

[Caustic63]

Month 3 of the Escalation League Challenge is now complete, and after a lot of hard work my Emperor's Children are starting to look pretty amazing at 2000 points. Amongst the new additions, Lord Commander Eidolon is front and centre along with a freshly done unit of converted Kakophoni to fill a Troops slot in my first time playing with 3rd Company Elite on the board. Just prior to the game, I made the decision to swap out the Chaplain I had also taken and run him as a Primus Medicae and the difference in table performance was quite shocking - FNP saved the lives of 2 Kakophoni from their own guns, and 3 of them from enemy fire. Suffice to say I'll be running a lot of FNP going forward. Anyway, here are some pictures of my painting:

Unfortunately Eidolon appears a bit blurry, but going forward I'll do my best to get better pictures of him.

Current Point Totals:

Painting Points:

Painted (3 colours and based) - 4/4 points

Washes / Highlights - 2/2 points

Sand/Grass/special details used on the base -1/2 points (no special details)

Gaming Points:

Play game at correct points/warscoll count level - 3/3 points

fully painted models - 2/2 points

Win - 2/2 points

Hobby Points:

Fully Painted Large Model: Dreadclaw Drop Pod - 3/3 points

This month's total = 17/18 points

Total = 50/54 points

This month I wasn't able to find a game right away, but when I did it was against an enthusiastic opponent! He'd brought his Shooty Orks and was interested to find out how a 30K legion army plays compared to their 40K counterparts. For this game we agreed to just use 40K rules and charts, which suited me fine since I didn't have more then 2 HQs or 3 Elites. We rolled the diagonal deployment scenario, with Big Guns Never Tire mission (this worked out well for me because I didn't take that much Heavy Support whereas he filled his slots). After winning the roll-off to deploy first and go first, I ended up facing buckets of BS2 gunnery that threatened to overwhelm me so I had to be aggressive. As one of the observers noted, its highly unusual to see Shooty Orks against Fighty Marines. He had two units of Deffkoptas, a very large unit of Lootas, Flash Gitz in a Battlewagon, a Gorkanaut, some Shoota Boys in Trukks, and a unit of Meganobz with Grotznik inside a Battle wagon as shown below.

Against an army with this many models, I had to take it apart one piece at a time by prioritizing the most lethal enemy threats and eliminating them quickly. During my first turn I moved and ran Eidolon and his squad up the left side, supported by my Executioner Predator. Note that the coins are objectives, and there are five of them. My Dreadclaw dropped right in front of one of his units of Deffkoptas and managed to wound one of them, before using Flat Out to retreat out of sight - the Terminators inside will be needed at a later time to deal with his Meganobz. On the other side, my Kakophoni and Contemptor Mortis take shots at his Lootas and Battlewagon respectively with the former causing significant casualties thanks to the Warp test he failed while the latter did nothing at all.

My Emperor's Children proved to be fast, flexible and dynamic with every element of my army possessing a modicum of mobility. My opponent was surprised that my Kakophoni were both Objective Secured and Relentless, but these made little difference when he ripped apart my Terminators and thanks to a very lucky set of circumstances (his Battlewagon lived just long enough to prevent me from charging the Meganobz inside, and I whiffed on my Chainfists at a pivotal moment) he ran me right up until the end of the game - where I was rolling Ld. checks on Stubborn hoping they would live to the end! My Javelins came in right behind his Gorkanaut, taking down two of its Hull Points before Jinking away to hide and snag objectives. The Outriders came on near Eidolon and his friends, arriving just in time to open up the Trukk and allow Eidolon and his crew to clean up the occupants of both vehicles. The Lord Commander would ultimately die to AP2 Snazzguns, but by that point I'd claimed all the objectives and he conceded.

Next month is 2500 points, and my plans for expansion are already in motion. I suspect it will start to get hard to find 40K players who want to play games THIS large. Only a few 30K players are still in the league now, and I've been told I have a lead at this point (so shall we celebrate my inevitable victory with blood wine and organ soup? I'm sure Eidolon would...)

2500 points Emperor's Children Legion Army

RoW: 3rd Company Elite

HQ:

Lord Commander Eidolon

> Jump Pack

Legion Centurion

> Consul: Chaplain (Power Maul)

> MC Phoenix Power Spear, Sonic Shrieker

> Artificer Armour, MBs, Combat Shield

TROOPS:

Kakphoni Squad (x10)

> Orchestrator w Phoenix Spear, MBs

Legion Tactical Squad (x14)

> Sergeant w Power Spear, MBs

> Legion Vexilla

> Sonic Shriekers

ELITES:

Legion Terminator Squad (x5)

> Tartarus Terminator Armour

> Combi-Plasma (x5)

> Power Sword (x3), Chainfist (x2)

Anvillus Dreadclaw Drop Pod

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnaught

> Two Kheres Assault Cannons

Apothecarion Detachment

> Augury Scanner

> Power Sword

Palatine Blades (x8)

> Prefector w Phoenix Spear, MBs

> Phoenix Power Spear (x2)

FAST ATTACK:

Javelin Attack Speeder (x2)

> Cyclone Missile Launcher

> Hunter Killer Missiles (x4)

Legion Outriders (x5)

> TL Plasmagun (x5)

HEAVY SUPPORT:

Legion Land Raider Phobos

> Armoured Ceramite

Legion Strike Predator

> Executioner Plasma Cannon

> Heavy Bolter Sponsons

ARMY TOTAL = 2500pts.

My plan for this list is very similar to the last one, except I've incorporated a unit of Palatine Blades inside a Land Raider to increase my close combat muscle. I debated on running a unit of Phoenix Terminators instead but cost was a major factor in me choosing the Palatines instead. Since I already have 3 fairly beefy scoring units, at this level I can afford to have a fighty unit centred around wiping out enemy units in a single round of combat that my opponent must deal with. Of course, the fact that I already have the models converted and ready certainly helps too!

Edited March 24, 2016 by Caustic63

[nightwrench]

I have come across two dreadclaws and a Kharybdis.  My question for the 3rd company elite is what rides in them.  Palatine blades or Phoenix guard terms?  I am planning on using Fulgrim at 2500 for the re-roll reserves.  

 

Part of me is tempted to run small Kakaphoni squads in the claws and do jump packs for blades and destroyers (yes I said destroyers...the CC potential is crazy in EC, 2 BP shot attacks, hammer of wrath, 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 3, wounding on 3 and the champ is wounding on 2's).  I am to many points at 2500 that is why I am wondering if all three CC squads with Fulgrim and Eidolon are overkill.  

 

Thoughts are Fulgrim with the terms in the Kharybdis, destroyers with jump packs on their own, blades with jumping Eidolon.  Or scrap all the jump packs and beef up the 5 man Kakaphoni squads and put the squads in the dread claws.  

 

getting ready to place FW order so looking for some suggestions.  I do not own the blades or Phoenix guard yet.

[Frater Cornelius]

Claws are generally better for melee units, so I wouldn't put Kakophoni in there. They are relentless and have very good range. Phoenix Guard can get a dedicated Dreadclaw, which frees you an FA slot.

 

Destroyers are usually not the most effective units, but I really like JP builds. However, there are better ROW to take advantage of that, although those Shriekers are pretty solid.

Still, I prefer 3rd Company to capitalize its shooting prowess with the Kakophoni and supplement it with some melee and vice versa.

[SkimaskMohawk]

Err, why is the dreadclaw off the flying stand all the time? You don't get to not play with the base for any flyers or skimmers

[Caustic63]

I have come across two dreadclaws and a Kharybdis.  My question for the 3rd company elite is what rides in them.  Palatine blades or Phoenix guard terms?  I am planning on using Fulgrim at 2500 for the re-roll reserves.  

 

Part of me is tempted to run small Kakaphoni squads in the claws and do jump packs for blades and destroyers (yes I said destroyers...the CC potential is crazy in EC, 2 BP shot attacks, hammer of wrath, 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 3, wounding on 3 and the champ is wounding on 2's).  I am to many points at 2500 that is why I am wondering if all three CC squads with Fulgrim and Eidolon are overkill.  

 

Thoughts are Fulgrim with the terms in the Kharybdis, destroyers with jump packs on their own, blades with jumping Eidolon.  Or scrap all the jump packs and beef up the 5 man Kakaphoni squads and put the squads in the dread claws.  

 

getting ready to place FW order so looking for some suggestions.  I do not own the blades or Phoenix guard yet.

 

Realistically, you should only be putting close combat units inside Dreadclaws because its where you get your best value Assault Transport. In the case of a Kharybdis I think you are better off taking a Land Raider with Armoured Ceramite instead. Kakophoni have long enough range to be a threat almost anywhere on the battlefield, so there's no need to pay the points to put them inside a Drop Pod or heavy transport (though a Rhino may work depending on your plan). An optimal 3rd Company list in my mind has 20-30 Kakophoni teamed up with powerful shooting coming from Fast Attack or Heavy Support, backed up by a close combat unit such as Palatine Blades or Phoenix Terminators in a transport for both mobility and protection. A Fortification can work very good in this sort of army, since there are multiple ways to get Rerolling 1s to Hit when shooting (Rolling a 5 on the Command Table for 12" buff aura, an Ammo Dump with an Aegis Line, and/or Ammo Reserves inside an Imperial Bunker). On a unit that Get's Hot so frequently, this ability is highly useful imo.

[Caustic63]

Err, why is the dreadclaw off the flying stand all the time? You don't get to not play with the base for any flyers or skimmers

 

Because I took it off since the Dreadclaw was in Hover Mode the whole game. It simply didn't make sense to me to have it bent over in mid flight while it was picking up and dropping off units. The only reason why I might be forced to leave it on is for cover save and LoS purposes, but the model is pretty big and Jinks every time someone shoots at it so this never became an issue.

[Neforon]

Hey guys, since I started collecting ec I ve stayed up to date with this Tactica. I have finally managed to get an account (was disabled). There s a bunch of useful info in here. The only thing missing is some tips and tricks for the ec VS the other legions. I always play VS alpha legion and I have a Very hard time usually. What do you guys of sharing some of our experiences on our opponents and the weaknesses we can exploit?

 

Apologies for spelling, am on tablet.

 

Nef

[01RTB01]

Err, why is the dreadclaw off the flying stand all the time? You don't get to not play with the base for any flyers or skimmers

I don't understand your second sentence but the flight stand for me is very unstable so my pod will always "stand" rather than "fly". I for one won't run the risk of a table being knocked and an expensive pod crashing and breaking. Quite reasonable surely?...

[01RTB01]

I have come across two dreadclaws and a Kharybdis.  My question for the 3rd company elite is what rides in them.  Palatine blades or Phoenix guard terms?  I am planning on using Fulgrim at 2500 for the re-roll reserves.  

 

Part of me is tempted to run small Kakaphoni squads in the claws and do jump packs for blades and destroyers (yes I said destroyers...the CC potential is crazy in EC, 2 BP shot attacks, hammer of wrath, 3 attacks on the charge hitting on 3, wounding on 3 and the champ is wounding on 2's).  I am to many points at 2500 that is why I am wondering if all three CC squads with Fulgrim and Eidolon are overkill.  

 

Thoughts are Fulgrim with the terms in the Kharybdis, destroyers with jump packs on their own, blades with jumping Eidolon.  Or scrap all the jump packs and beef up the 5 man Kakaphoni squads and put the squads in the dread claws.  

 

getting ready to place FW order so looking for some suggestions.  I do not own the blades or Phoenix guard yet.

5 man squad with pod costs same as 10 man squad. I know which I'll be running! 5 man squads are almost pointless. More shots = more likelihood of bio psychic shock coming off. Go with the ten man squads every time.

[Theredknight]

 

 

Err, why is the dreadclaw off the flying stand all the time? You don't get to not play with the base for any flyers or skimmers

Because I took it off since the Dreadclaw was in Hover Mode the whole game. It simply didn't make sense to me to have it bent over in mid flight while it was picking up and dropping off units. The only reason why I might be forced to leave it on is for cover save and LoS purposes, but the model is pretty big and Jinks every time someone shoots at it so this never became an issue.

There is actually no rule saying you MUST use the bases, there was a thread and discussion about it a while back.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/304068-anvillus-kharbydis-landing/?do=findComment&comment=3965366

 

I personally use mine, but when dropping off will place down, as a drop pod would be dropping but my group all do that as it is fluffy.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Theredknight

[Theredknight]

Ok, so I finally got to play with them today. The initiative bonus, the -1ws, and the kakophoni are ruinous!

 

I am so pleased how they have turned out, they are a pretty competitive army with the imitative bonuses, slaughtering a squad before hey attack is pretty rough.

Kakophoni can actually cause some damage, sure sometimes they succumb to the pleasure of sound, but they get the d6 off 3 out of 3, vexillas do not allow the re roll as it isn't a morale check, it is a leadership test. Which is nice!

[Caustic63]

Hey guys, since I started collecting ec I ve stayed up to date with this Tactica. I have finally managed to get an account (was disabled). There s a bunch of useful info in here. The only thing missing is some tips and tricks for the ec VS the other legions. I always play VS alpha legion and I have a Very hard time usually. What do you guys of sharing some of our experiences on our opponents and the weaknesses we can exploit?

 

Apologies for spelling, am on tablet.

 

Nef

 

Its difficult for me to give generic "Emperor's Children vs _____ Legion" advice because no two armies even of the same legion are alike thanks to the massive assortment of options, RoW variant armies, and special characters. In the case of the Alpha Legion you have the additional wrinkle of your opponent being able to pick his tactic (though its often Infiltrate). Can you provide an example of a list you've face before? I regularly practise against Imperial Fists and Sons of Horus so my experience is not as varied as some of the other members who post on this thread.