[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Neforon]

 

Hey guys, since I started collecting ec I ve stayed up to date with this Tactica. I have finally managed to get an account (was disabled). There s a bunch of useful info in here. The only thing missing is some tips and tricks for the ec VS the other legions. I always play VS alpha legion and I have a Very hard time usually. What do you guys of sharing some of our experiences on our opponents and the weaknesses we can exploit?

 

Apologies for spelling, am on tablet.

 

Nef

 

Its difficult for me to give generic "Emperor's Children vs _____ Legion" advice because no two armies even of the same legion are alike thanks to the massive assortment of options, RoW variant armies, and special characters. In the case of the Alpha Legion you have the additional wrinkle of your opponent being able to pick his tactic (though its often Infiltrate). Can you provide an example of a list you've face before? I regularly practise against Imperial Fists and Sons of Horus so my experience is not as varied as some of the other members who post on this thread.

 

Thanks for the reply. I didn't so much mean specific tactics as some general pointers/things to keep in mind. 

 

I'm not very experienced yet, but there are some things I've learnt from playing against AL:

- Never choose to deploy second. They will just choose Infiltrate as their Tactic, put one or two things down at best, check your deployment, counter-deploy you AND get first turn (unless you steal).

- If your Phoenix Terms get tangled up with an equal amount (or Emperor forbid higher amount) of Laernan terminators and they don't overrun them on the first turn, get some reinforcements there asap. I know this is true for most terminators in general and even more so for other specific legion terminators.

- Do not just assume that your 10man marine squad can take on 5 headhunters and win. They definitely can, but those special AP3 Combat Knives seriously hurt normal marines. 

- When facing Alpharius, don't consider yourself stronger in most CC situations. His army wide prefered enemy messes up your entire EC bonus (easier overrun) and you might not always win the fight. I've found that Fulgrim's bonus of +2 Combat Res does not even the odds in most situations. 

 

Obviously this all depends greatly on dice (as with all things in 30k) and some of it might be painstakingly obvious. For the sake of general anti-legion tactics though, I thought I'd throw this out there.

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by Neforon

[Frater Cornelius]

If there is anything I learned is that dealing in absolutes when it comes to tactics is a horrible idea. You can not generalize every possible scenario. For example, if I am playing against AL and both of us have Pods, I will deploy second so I get the jump on him. If he is playing a melee or 12" army, I will deploy second so that he moves towards me turn 1 after doing his 18" infiltration, leaving him open to a counter-assault.

 

You are right on the Phoenix Guard, but sending them into other elite units is usually bad. They are better when assaulting down, that means ganking on weaker units. If you want an elite-killer unit, you are far better served with Palatines, which have the same amount of attacks but more bodies and S5 Rending weapons that aren't two-handed so that they can stay somewhat effective when being charges or can not sweep just yet.

 

As for the EC bonus, you have fallen into a very common trap. Just because you can assault well does not mean you should. I have had games with EC where I way shooting 90% of the time and only did one assault. The trick is to know when and where to charge. I would not change a 10 man Tac squad into another 10 man squad or even a 5 man specialist squad unless I know exactly that I am going to win this combat and Rylanor is nearby being all glorious. If odds are stacked against me and I do not need that charge win the game then I usually look for alternatives. There was also a game where the only benefit I got was the better run moves with Crusader and the Maru Skara. The rest was pure shooting.

 

Just remember, just because you can fight well doesn't mean you have to

 

Edit: Wow, my spelling really needs an upgrade. Shameful display! :O

Edited April 2, 2016 by Immersturm

[Theredknight]

I agree with that, they aren't WE, however, with the new rules I dare say that if they got the charge on a similar squad of WE then they have a damned good chance at pulling off a win.

 

I still haven't used PG yet, the kakophoni are just too good, fluffy, and fun for that! I have amassed 30 now, and yet to use them in a big game, but I will do at some point!! They cost equivalent of a 15 man Tac squad but their output is generally better, and because of that, they tend to get targeted, but that's fine because they aren't shooting at my contemptors and tanks smashing them apart as well!

[GreyCrow]

Very sound points from Immerstrum as always

 

I'd like to add a few observations of mine regarding army building and general tactics on the battlefield. Not a detailed step by step of what to do on the field, but a general playing style of the units : 

 

1) I've observed that there are 3 main types of general playstyles that you can adopt in 30k (and 40k) and bring good results because the different components of the army  are both coherent and synergetic : Battle Line + Cavalry, Attrition Battle Line, Guerilla Warfare. Building the army around one of these principles is generally efficient.

 

2) Line units (basic troops) are excellent at taking damage points for points compared to other units. Cavalry units are units that pack more gank than tank, and have 2 defining characteristics : they have high damage and they have good damage projection (range, speed, etc). A quick tip to test whether a unit can be considered cavalry is to ask whether it can come from reserves and apply its full damage on the turn it arrives : if it can, it's cavalry (Predator Executionner), if it cannot it is either Line (Tactical squad) or Elite Line (Tactical Support, Terminators, Legion specific Elites, etc).

I mentionned the Line Elite units, which are everything sharing the basic MEQ statline with something more.

 

3) Battle Line + Cavalry works well when you have a strong battle line (in terms of volume and resilience) that can take a punch for multiple turns without screwing your attrition rates, and a cavalry geared to kill the enemy line to provide you with a strong overall advantage. A key aspect is that both the line units and the cavalry have to be uniform, and this tends to be generally spammy. Example : 30 Tacticals in Rhinos and 3 to 6 Vindicators. The unity of units means that you can effectively have them work together rather than having to micromanage units that work differently. Same goes for the line, the line units need to work in a similar manner, otherwise the line will be all over the place and as such easy to break. A good points investment breakdown usually is 50-55% Line units, 45-50% cavalry.

 

4) Attrition Battle Line : The goal is to overwhelm the enemy with a stronger line than his and play the long game. Models will die by the score, but the goal is to make the battle line as resilient as possible to win out against anything thrown at it. A large number of Line models will take a sizeable amount of points, along with several Line Elite units of the same type. This includes Dreadnoughts, Terminators, Legion specific Elite, etc. For example, at 2000 points : 30 Tacticals in Rhinos and 10 Terminators in Land Raiders, or 60 Tacticals and 20 Terminators on foot.

Some part of the line will die, but the goal is to overall make it extremely hard for the enemy to whittle it down sufficiently to die. Once again, uniformity of units is key so that they operate together on the battlefield and don't spread out so much that you let them get picked off.

 

5) Guerilla Warfare : Rather than having the strongest battle line, the goal is to have so many deployment options (Infiltrate, Scout, Deep Strike) that you can move about and open smaller fronts all around the enemy. These smaller lines need to be small enough to easily place, yet strong enough to force the opponent to deal with them and send multiple units to securely end the threat.

The goal is that while the enemy will have superiority on one front or the other, he will not be able to have superiority on all your fronts in the game, because either he spreads out firepower and doesn't make your fronts small enough to get a clear advantage, either he completelys wipes them but makes sure that your others are almost intact.

In this framework, deployment options are paramount over firepower so you can ensure that you can place the units when you need them, where you need them. Some form of cavalry is preferrable, but the goal of this cavalry will be to come and help a specific front up. Because the cavalry doesn't need to have enough damage at a strategic level, but rather more at a local tactical level on a specific small front, damage projection is more important than damage.

Another key aspect of your fronts is that they have to be annoying to deal with and present a real threat to the overall battle, then apparently easy enough to kill that you can kill them without trouble.

 

6) Regarding Assault : Like Immerstrum said, Assault should never be the only reason you take a unit. By definition, Assault has a very low damage projection (because it's got no range) and should only be used to get an advantage when the ground is contested rather than going for the Assault for the sake of it. Example : both lines advance on a specific objective, assault is inevitable and the line with the better assault capability in this area will win the point.

It's more a question of : if I have to be in it, I have to be better than my opponent either through better units, better bonuses or simply more bodies and the chance to get the first charge.

 

You never bring a knife to a gunfight as a main doctrine unless you like your body with bullet holes. This is especially true when the guns fire self propelled grenades and tanks have weapons that can level a modern building in a single shot.

 

____

 

Regarding EC specific tactics, based on their units and Rites of War, I have a feeling that they can really excel in Line + Cavalry and Attrition Line, while they could technically work with Guerilla due to their Jump Packs, they would be less efficient at it than Raven Guard or Alpha Legion for instance.

Edited April 2, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Frater Cornelius]

By your definition, my play style would indeed be Line + Cav. I prefer having a solid midfield presence, a few dedicated flanking/hunting units and an execution units. Midfield is for scoring, soaking and lending a helping hand. The Cav would be my flanking units or at least very fast units that can come from the sides or outmaneuver the enemy to take out specific threats or simply surround the opponent. My execution unit is usually a hard hitting one that goes after th biggest threat and works its way down th threat table. They are the elite-killers that would otherwise give the rest of the army trouble. If the enemy has no units worth executing, they become a major threat and distraction to the enemy when they go rampaging through the enemy lines. That is basically my way of playing the Maru Skara ;)

[Theredknight]

there are many Styles of play, mine for instance, doesn't fit into any of those categories. You could maybe put a little attrition and a little cav, rather than one or the other I suppose.

 

I seem to do really well playing fluffy ec.

What I mean by this is mainstay units (before they were tacticals, we can now add kakophoni to that) are on the field, these are supported by preds, vindis deredeo and dreads, quad mortars and maybe a fellblade if points allow. With some flanking jet bikes.

It's an adaptable formation and if played can counter a few different army types.

For instance I am doing well with a 15 man assault squad. Held in a reserve formation and when they get to close they and eidolon charge in there. The units are already weakened by fire, and effectively finished off before they can strike.

My kakophoni tactic seems to be ranged, as you say ec aren't we, they have other benefits

Edited April 2, 2016 by Theredknight

[Iduddy]

I used the new Third Company Elite RoW for the first time the other day.  I didn't have any Kakophoni since I do not have any of the models (they are in the mail), However the ability to give Sonic Shriekers to everyone in AA or PA is amazing.  Especially with the massive boost to make enemies -1WS.  The ability to improve your hitting on enemy elites is just too good to pass up.  Additionally making the Mechanicum hitting you on 5s really dampers the blow from all those high strength cyborgs. 

[Theredknight]

Yeah it's great, I do the whole unit for synergy, as it would be too complicated otherwise.

I fully approve of min2 units of kakophoni, they are decent now.

Also gettin the charge and smashing a good chunk of the squad helps a lot more with combat resolution and therefore the extra d3 roll!

[dansupvi]

     Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (2498pts)

• HQ (132pts)
  • Legion Centurion (132pts)

    Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear, Refractor Field, Sonic Shrieker

    • Consul

      Chaplain

• Troops (930pts)
  • The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children (310pts)

    9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier

    • Orchestrator

      Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear

  • The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children (310pts)

    9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier

    • Orchestrator

      Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear

  • The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children (310pts)

    9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier

    • Orchestrator

      Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear

• Elites (276pts)
  • Palatine Blade Squad (276pts)

    7x Palatine Warrior, 5x Pheonix Spear, Sonic Shriekers

    • Palatine Prefector

      Melta Bombs, Pheonix Spear

• Fast Attack (370pts)
  • Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod (100pts)
  • Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (270pts)

    Melta Bombs, 6x Space Marine Sky Hunters

• Heavy Support (410pts)
  • Deredeo Pattern Dreadnought (220pts)

    Aiolos Missile Launcher, Twin-linked Heavy Flamer

  • Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer (190pts)
• Legion
  • Legion Astartes

    III: Emperor's Children, Traitor

• Lord of War (380pts)
  • Fulgrim the Illuminator (380pts)

    Fireblade, Primarch

    • Master of the Legion

      3rd Company Elite                     

 

was hoping some experienced ec players could give me some advice

 

how do you build a good 3rd company elite list? i want lots of kakophoni shooting, but id also like a fulgrim + spear wielding psycho unit to pack some cc punch. really struggling to get a list together that feels strong + fluffy to me

[01RTB01]

Even at 6000 points I think 20 kakophoni would be sufficient. At 3k its plenty. I like variety in my lists so I don't spam. In terms of a "good list" anything really goes. Best thing to do is to try stuff out and see what works.

 

Personally my basics are:

20 kakophoni

 

Eidolon with jump packing palatines

 

Breachers in proteus - waste of points but mine look too cool :)

 

Lightning

 

Venator

 

Quad mortars

 

Add anything else :)

[dansupvi]

ill cut out 10 of the Kakophoni and play around with it then!

[Frater Cornelius]

Same advice here. 20 is sufficient at 2k. If I run 3rd Comany, then sometimes with just 10 dudes and a support HQ tucked away in the unit.

[Theredknight]

You can try 30, as soon as I have finished building and painting the last 5 I have and get a game, il let you know

[Caustic63]

You can try 30, as soon as I have finished building and painting the last 5 I have and get a game, il let you know

But yeah, I like some good shooting units to back them up, and a ccw unit to follow up the devastation of the kakophoni weapons

 

Kakophoni are capable against a wide range of targets (basically anything that isn't an AV13 or AV14 vehicle) and I can say definitively that with the nerfing of Tyrant Terminators they are the best compulsory Troops choice in the game. That may sound like a bold statement to make and it is, but Horus Heresy is fundamentally a game of shooting with close combat becoming relevant once the two armies get close together and start wrestling over objectives. Troops are often seen as a necessary tax to bulk up the army in terms of model count, and there are quite a few RoWs now (plus characters and Primarchs) that enable swaps but few of their options come close to 2 S6 long range mobile weapon shots per model that are pinning and can generate free AP2 Ignore Cover instant death wounds.

 

My point is, you could win games with only Kakophoni and some anti-armour. Taking 30 is in no way a penalty, and could work very well if you are concerned about the increased attrition from Get's Hot.

[Pazuzu]

I fully agree with the opinion that there is no reason to worry about "too many" Kakophoni (I have 30 being commission painted right now).

 

How do you all feel about the Rhino option for these guys?  I can understand the argument that with their long range weaponry and relentless, they may not need it but personally, I'm grabbing three.  I want one turn where there they are relatively safe from harm and can optimally maneuver. They are vast majority of my scoring infantry and need to stay around so spending some points on protection sounds good to me...  

Edited April 8, 2016 by Pazuzu

[Hergrmir]

With the changes, has anyone had success in running EC loyalists, either with Maru Skara or something else? I've been playing around with it and I'm torn on Maru Skara between going filling FA with things that can already outflank and then adding some more in via elites for shooting firepower (plasma bikes, rapiers), or going straight for combat resolution stuff to break and sweep.

 

A rules question while I'm at it: would taking an elites slot of apothecaries and then granting outflank to that selection then confer that to the unit they join, or is the intent otherwise/the timing doesn't work?

Edited April 8, 2016 by Hergrmir

[Caustic63]

With the changes, has anyone had success in running EC loyalists, either with Maru Skara or something else? I've been playing around with it and I'm torn on Maru Skara between going filling FA with things that can already outflank and then adding some more in via elites for shooting firepower (plasma bikes, rapiers), or going straight for combat resolution stuff to break and sweep.

 

A rules question while I'm at it: would taking an elites slot of apothecaries and then granting outflank to that selection then confer that to the unit they join, or is the intent otherwise/the timing doesn't work?

 

Going loyalist EC means you lose out on some of the most potent parts of the army (Eidolon, Kakophoni, 3rd Company Elite and Fulgrim) but its still possible to put together a solid list since a lot of the legion's strength now comes from Flawless Execution. Ouflanking firepower is rarely a bad idea, and Maru Skara is one of my favourite Rites of War because of how neatly it captures this style of play within a legion army.

 

In regards to your question, its undoubtedly a grey area. I'd discuss it politely with your opponent before you begin a game to make sure they are okay with it.

[Charlo]

I fully agree with the opinion that there is no reason to worry about "too many" Kakophoni (I have 30 being commission painted right now).

 

How do you all feel about the Rhino option for these guys? I can understand the argument that with their long range weaponry and relentless, they may not need it but personally, I'm grabbing three. I want one turn where there they are relatively safe from harm and can optimally maneuver. They are vast majority of my scoring infantry and need to stay around so spending some points on protection sounds good to me...

With the fact they are relentless a Rhino is an amazing buy.

 

Deploy them inside and keep yourself safe from turn one harm. Or if you get first turn drive around, disembark, unload sonic fury.

[omnivision6]

Sorry, but I just ordered book six. I have the updated red book. Where does it say Kakophani are relentless? Is that part of the new Right of War?

[Charlo]

Sorry, but I just ordered book six. I have the updated red book. Where does it say Kakophani are relentless? Is that part of the new Right of War?

 

New RoW!

[omnivision6]

Well, that's pretty dang awesome. I figured I'd jump on this bandwagon and write up a 3rd company elit list.

 

All the HQs go in the assault squad. They really just act as wounds for Eidolon. I have a vet sniper squad to add variety to the list.

 

+++ The First Noise Marines (3000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear]

····Consul [Primus Medicae]

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Jump Pack]

····Consul [Chaplain]

 

Lord Commander Eidolon [Jump Pack]

····Master of the Legion [3rd Company Elite]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Assault Squad [19x Legion Assault Space Marines, 4x Power Weapon, Sonic Shriekers]

····Legion Assault Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour]

 

+ Elites +

 

Legion Rapier Weapons Battery

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')]

····Legion Rapier Weapons Battery [Quad Mortar ('Thud Gun')]

 

Legion Veteran Tactical Squad [2x Heavy Bolter and Suspensor Web, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier, 9x Legion Veteran Space Marines, Legion Vexilla, Sniper]

····Legion Veteran Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Phoenix Spear]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter [Phosphex bomb cluster, 2x Two Kraken penetrator heavy missiles]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Predator Strike Armoured Squadron

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

 

Legion Whirlwind Scorpius

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [iII: Emperor's Children, Traitor]

Edited April 13, 2016 by omnivision6

[Charlo]

Works for me. some serious dakka there. Only real threat would be enemy scorpius and typhons etc, but who doesn't hate those?

 

Your armour is also all quite somewhat fragile and in 3k points you will see enemy super heavies - but that's what the Lightning is for I suppose.

 

A Sicaran Venator would do wonders for the list - letting you shut down enemy template threats!

[Slips]

A thing of note is that Thudd Gun Rapiers changed in book 6; you want the Quad Launchers if you want their most recent incarnation.

[omnivision6]

OK, I ordered book six last night. FW already sent an email that my book is on its way Edited April 13, 2016 by omnivision6

[Neforon]

Looks like a strong list, Omni. Am I correct in assuming that the Assault Marines will be joined by all your HQ's and have no transport? I wonder what their role's going to be. Guarding the backfield or do you plan to pushthem forward? In either case I feel that there's a lot of points into that one unit for having so little protection. Jump Packs (thus assault marines) are hella expensive. Combined with your HQ's they'll be targeted right away. You have a lot of ranged threats of course, but I feel I'd shoot your deathstar first if I was fighting this list. Granted, the FNP will give them some protection from enemy fire, but even then I don't think they'll survive long in a 3k game.

 

I almost feel that getting rid of both consuls and swapping the assault marines for cheaper alternatives is a better option here. You'd lose your Zealout and FNP, but with a transport, you'll have more marines alive anyway, and thus more attacks. It might balance out in the end. The points you've gained from the loss of consuls and the jump packs, you could spend  on that transport and possibly a Master of Signal. Since your list is quite shooty, he could give his +1 BS to the Rapier batteries or even the Kakophoni. The transport with Eidolon and assault force would be guarding your line, only coming out to defend your shooty units.

Incidentally I built a similar list yesterday. My first one with the 3rd Company RoW. It's 2.5k and there's not going to be any Super Heavies, so I cannot compare them perfectly. With the list I tried to capture what I suggested above: a shooty force with assault units covering them. Apparently I'm up against Blood Angels, so I'll need the assault force, hehe. The list is in the list building section if you want to check it out, Omni. Maybe you have a different look on things . Always interested in that.

 

 

Good luck,

Nef