[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Caustic63]

OK, I ordered book six last night. FW already sent an email that my book is on its way

 

I took your advice and added a sicaran venator, and updated the motors to the new quad rapiers. I took out the vet TAC squad to make room for everything. Here is the updated list.

 

+++ The First Noise Marines (3000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear]

····Consul [Primus Medicae]

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs]

····Consul [Chaplain]

 

Lord Commander Eidolon [Jump Pack]

····Master of the Legion [3rd Company Elite]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Assault Squad [19x Legion Assault Space Marines, 4x Power Weapon, Sonic Shriekers]

····Legion Assault Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour, Power Weapon]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour, Power Weapon]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour, Power Weapon]

 

+ Elites +

 

Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery [incendiary Shell, 3x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter [battle Servitor Control, Phosphex bomb cluster, 2x Two Kraken penetrator heavy missiles]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Predator Strike Armoured Squadron

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

 

Legion Whirlwind Scorpius

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer [Dozer Blade, Heavy Bolters]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [iII: Emperor's Children, Traitor]

 

Seems pretty solid. Assault Marines are unreasonably expensive at the moment, so you might want to convince your opponent to allow you to use them at 200 points base cost as opposed to what they are now - IIFC Theredknight said this was the new amount the designers are looking at to make them more viable as Troops over Tactical Squads. Anyway, your Consuls should both have Shriekers (since they ARE infantry units, they get the cheaper 3rd Company price) and your Chaplain should have a Phoenix Spear. It's important you specify what type of Power Weapons you've given your Assault Marines as well, since Power Axes don't benefit from Flawless Execution. Putting Meltabombs on your Orchestrators is pretty key as well, otherwise you are in a world of trouble against a Contemptor or Leviathan. I'd pay for these by getting rid of the Heavy Bolters on the Venator. It's main weapon is Ordnance, so you'd be only Snap shooting regardless.

[omnivision6]

Great suggestions. The heavy bolters were mainly for weapons destroyed results.

 

So, I took away heavy bolters, dozer blade, and battle servitor control from the pramiris to give my consuls shreakers, chap a p. Spear, and all three kokaphani units melta bombs. I think I'm ready to destroy the loyalists for the Warmaster.

O, the power weapons are power swords.

 

 

 

+++ The First Noise Marines (2999pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) ++

 

+ HQ +

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear, Sonic Shrieker]

····Consul [Primus Medicae]

 

Legion Centurion [Artificer Armour, Jump Pack, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear, Sonic Shrieker]

····Consul [Chaplain]

 

Lord Commander Eidolon [Jump Pack]

····Master of the Legion [3rd Company Elite]

 

+ Troops +

 

Legion Assault Squad [19x Legion Assault Space Marines, 4x Power Weapon, Sonic Shriekers]

····Legion Assault Sergeant [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Phoenix Spear]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon]

 

The Kakophani of the Emperor's Children [9x Chora, Legion Rhino Armoured Carrier]

····Orchestrator [Artificer Armour, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon]

 

+ Elites +

 

Legion Quad Launcher Support Battery [incendiary Shell, 3x Legion Rapier, Shatter Shell]

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter [Phosphex bomb cluster, 2x Two Kraken penetrator heavy missiles]

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Legion Predator Strike Armoured Squadron

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

····Legion Predator Tank [Lascannons]

 

Legion Whirlwind Scorpius

 

Sicaran Venator Tank Destroyer

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [iII: Emperor's Children, Traitor]

[Terminus]

Shouldn't this be in the army list forum, rather than hijacking a tactics thread?

 

To get things somewhat more on topic, I noticed you took incendiary shells. Do you have any experiences to share? What shells do people tend to take, if anything? Granted, phospex is usually the easy choice, but if you don't have the siege master or points for it, what are people finding effective? I can see the incendiary shells doing a number on cult hordes, but otherwise they should have the same damage output against 99% of targets as the frags. I see this as a better investment if you play vs 40K lists, but otherwise not so much.

 

Splinter shells are kind of interesting. You're basically fishing for 6s to wound, but 12 templates per battery should give you plenty of dice, and frankly "ridiculous on 6" things are among the strongest abilities in the game (rad carbines, d-weapons, snipers, etc). Just rolling it out even when only averaging 1.5 hits per template gives you the chance to dice the crap out of some things. In some ways the cheaper splinter shells are more potent than the holy phosphex, because you could easily erase a unit of terminators, whereas I've seen many a phosphex volley soaked by an artificer Sgt.

[Caillum]

Good points about the splinter shells. No experience to share, but I reckon a Siege Breaker could be very versatile in an army with Fulgrim (or any Primarch, for that matter):

- he unlocks phospex shells on some Rapiers,

- he counts as a Compulsory HQ, and

- he can jump into a lascannon squad to give them Tank Hunters. Sun-Killers anyone?!

[Charlo]

Siege Breaker is my go-to Consul HQ.

 

If he isn't in terminator Armour, always give him a boarding shield, will help especially with those assault-vulnerable heavy squads.

[omnivision6]

Charlo, I'm interested in how you use the siege breaker. Is a heavy support squad something you take often?

 

So far I run a heavy squad with volkite,an attached apothecary, and a master of signal. What types of units do you put your siege breaker in?

Edited April 15, 2016 by omnivision6

[Charlo]

Well - I've got little to no actual 30k games under me, but as a DG player I'll be running the Reaping with lots of heavy weapon squads. Volkite Culverins, Missile Launchers and Heavy Flamers to be exact.

 

He can be attached to any of these to dramatically increase the tank hunting power. Or, with the heavy flamer squad he can do a nasty trick with his boarding shield.

 

You drive up in a rhino, disembark and unload X many shredding flamer templates plus a phosphex bomb into infantry then if you get charged each guy get's D3 overwatch attacks and enemy doesn't get a charge bonus. The tank hunters isn't as useful here, but S5 with tank hunters does wonders against light AV.

 

I take him as well because he's not a support officer, has phosphex bomb access and allows me phosphex quad mortars/ medusas.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Charlo

[Slips]

Remember though that ALL of a Siege Breakers attacks have Tank Hunters and Wrecker, iirc (AFB).

 

That means he has Tank Hunting CC and Shooting no matter what hes got. Soooo TH Melta Bombs/Power Fists/Combi-Melta? Yup.

 

He only confers the rule to Heavy Weapons in a squad but still has them himself.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Terminus]

It's a shame he can't take a decent gun or a cognis signum.

 

I use one attached to a Siege Tyrant squad in my 3000pt variant of Coils, for infiltrating preferred enemy tank hunting wrecking split fire and night vision terminators with cyclones.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Terminus

[omnivision6]

All that sounds so fun!

 

I've been a dark eldar player since early 3rd. So my play style is very attack and speed oriented. This guy seems like he can be a departure from that, in a good way.

 

Now to think of some units to put him in....

[01RTB01]

In your list I'd also run all krakens on your lightning as you've got enough anti infantry elsewhere and there is no better tin opener than the krakens.

[01RTB01]

Charlo, I'm interested in how you use the siege breaker. Is a heavy support squad something you take often?

So far I run a heavy squad with volkite,an attached apothecary, and a master of signal. What types of units do you put your siege breaker in?

Do your volkites really need the master of signal? That amount of fire should turn an opponents' unit to ash without the bs5.

[Charlo]

 

Charlo, I'm interested in how you use the siege breaker. Is a heavy support squad something you take often?

So far I run a heavy squad with volkite,an attached apothecary, and a master of signal. What types of units do you put your siege breaker in?

Do your volkites really need the master of signal? That amount of fire should turn an opponents' unit to ash without the bs5.

 

 

For the sake of turning a great unit into an amazing one I'd say if you have the points for sure. More hits is especially more valuable with volkites as it directly translates into more further deflaguration hits.

 

Plus there is a nice bit of synergy where you can Orbital bombardment a transport open then shoot at the squishy insides perhaps.

[omnivision6]

 

Charlo, I'm interested in how you use the siege breaker. Is a heavy support squad something you take often?

So far I run a heavy squad with volkite,an attached apothecary, and a master of signal. What types of units do you put your siege breaker in?

Do your volkites really need the master of signal? That amount of fire should turn an opponents' unit to ash without the bs5.

No kill like overkill.

[Neforon]

On an entirely different topic: Who runs Fulgrim in the new RoW? And hiw does he fare? It seems that with the new RoW, you re less likely to get in combst. Does this make Fulgrim an awkward pick in the list? Or is he still strin, because, yknow, being a primarch and all...

[Terminus]

He still has Master of Ambush for infiltrate for himself and three of your units.  Even a shooty army can use a counter-charge/distraction melee element.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Plus emperor's children legion rules really don't favor gun line style armies, given all their rules pertain to assaults. Kakaphoni as troops in 3rd company elite form an awesome fire base, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't also have a heavy assault element, plus unlocking sonic shriekers for all units is pretty handy and something to take advantage of. 

[Frater Cornelius]

Let's talk a little bit about consistency. This topic is relevant to me as the future of this project depends on it.

 

If there is anything I absolutely hate in an army it is when it starts running out of steam. Be it due to attrition or limited use of certain rules, it really turns me off heavily. I am starting to fear that EC might be that sort of army. They are designed to cut down the enemy ASAP and seal the deal before the opponent can wrestle control away from it.

But if they won't manage that, they die. Palatines only have a 3+ save. Phoenix Guard only have 1 wound. Phoenix Spears become useless after the turn you charged and become a liability if you got charged. Hell, even some of their rules with all the combat resolution is designed around making a defensive situation into an offensive one.

Compare that to Templar Brethren or Justaerin respectively. They have less of a punch in melee but so much better survivability, allowing them to perform more consistently across all games.

 

I prefer a methodical play style. Rushing the opponent and hoping for the best is as far removed from an actual tactic as it gets, so I am wondering why EC, master tacticians and seekers of perfection, have dropped down to such a primitive tactic.

 

Had anyone ever had a problem with consistency and noticed that EC are running out of steam too quickly? Or am I making stuff up?

Edited May 1, 2016 by Immersturm

[Terminus]

Palatines are only 3+ save to justify the Phoenix Guard existing, who are otherwise ludicrously overpriced for what they bring to the table.

 

EC really need the charge, and to make it count, like you said, or they fall apart. If the opponent can dodge your phoenix spear challenge in the first round of combat and not get run down, in the second round your mandatory challenge has your champion bouncing off artificer armour with his two-handed power sword and then eating a power sword. If only the spear at least kept the +1S. Oh well.

 

It's better with the 3rd company, because you don't have a troop tax and instead get a consistent source of potent anti-infantry firepower, and with sonic shriekers hitting the opponent on 3+ should help turn attrition your way (unless they are Night Lords or World Eaters or something, then your charge better be devastating).

[Frater Cornelius]

Seeing as Palatines offer more combat consistency than Guard with Sabres and Counter-Attack I would prefere regular Legion TDA anyway. As for Kakophoni, I agree that they are solid, but mainly because they are a useful unit in a slot that is regarded as tax. However, I consider them the worst example of inconsistency. First, they need to get though 3+ and 2+ saves to trigger their effect, which is a lot harder than in sounds. There will be days where you murder a TDA squad while on another you will struggle to damag a Tac squad. Then the opponent needs to do a Ld check with modifiers, which can go one way or another way. Those are quite a few hoops to jump through and if they weren't replacing the Troops tax I wouldn't consider them in my lists.

 

It really seems like EC were designed to be this way. I do not agree as it doesn't really fit their fluff at all. Pre-Heresy fluff anyway. In my opinion.

[Da Once & Future Git]

Seeing as Palatines offer more combat consistency than Guard with Sabres and Counter-Attack I would prefere regular Legion TDA anyway. As for Kakophoni, I agree that they are solid, but mainly because they are a useful unit in a slot that is regarded as tax. However, I consider them the worst example of inconsistency. First, they need to get though 3+ and 2+ saves to trigger their effect, which is a lot harder than in sounds. There will be days where you murder a TDA squad while on another you will struggle to damag a Tac squad. Then the opponent needs to do a Ld check with modifiers, which can go one way or another way. Those are quite a few hoops to jump through and if they weren't replacing the Troops tax I wouldn't consider them in my lists.

 

It really seems like EC were designed to be this way. I do not agree as it doesn't really fit their fluff at all. Pre-Heresy fluff anyway. In my opinion.

 

I agree, recent;y, I've actually been starting to get really jealous of the White Scar rules, I'd love Jetbike troops in a RoW that wasn't so restrictive...  I really think that part of the problem is that troops currently are just pants...  Hopefully this will become a non-issue in the new book...

 

As for being one-hit wonders on the charge... yeah they kinda are, but I really agree with using the Blades with keeping the Sabre for the most part, and then using mostly standard stuff, I really like the 3rd Co, not just for troop Kakophoni, but also Sonic Shriekers (really wish everyone could take these without the Rite, then I'd be going Pride of the Legion for Veteran Troops), should really help them hold their own.

 

For exemple, my current list:

 

LoW

Fulgrim - Fireblade - 380

5 Command Squad - 4 sabres, Standard with fist, 5 Combat shields, Melta bombs, Sonic shriekers - 235

1 Apothecary - AA, Sonic shrieker - 57

1 Dreadclaw - 100

 

HQ

Eidolon - Jump pack - 205

 

Elites

7 Palantine Warriors - 2 Phoenix spears, Sonic shriekers, Jump packs, Prefector with Phoenix spear - 289

3 Laser Rapiers - 165

 

Troops

10 Assault Marines - 2 Power axes, Sonic shriekers, Sergeant with Phoenix spear & Combat shield - 268  (note, these guys are 50points cheaper, a house rule in my gaming group)

9 Kakophoni - 225

9 Kakophoni - 225

 

Fast Attack

2 Javelin Land Speeders - 2 Hunter killers each - 170

 

Heavy Support

Sicaran Battle Tank - Lascannon sponsons, Dozer blade - 180

 

2500

 

Basically other than really Eidolon and the 4 Phoenix spears, nothing really super seriously needs the charge to be effective armour wise (it is a serious advantage with the +1 I&A, but that goes for everyone {the extra A, not the I})

 

It also fulfills a lot of criteria I want for EC, it's quite fast and manueoverable, precise (no blast weapons) and hits pretty well in CC & shooting...

Edited May 1, 2016 by Da Once & Future Git

[Theredknight]

In my experience EC are OK in combat, but there are legions who do it a lot better than us.

 

EC are good at one thing in the fluff, counter strikes and tactical precision.

It takes the kind of general who knows how weild a scaplel instead of a club like WE.

I have found having a mix of gun line and shooting fire base (quad launchers, kakophoni, deeredeos, las vindis etc) on the board as your fire base and having assault units held as a tactical reserve on the field work well.

 

Many times I have drawn an opponent into charging a weak sacrificial tactical squad, only for them to find every gun in my army pointed at them, and for them To be countercharged by CC specialists, Palatines and assault troops with eidy, contemptor cortus etc.

I have brought down primarchs and their units like

That.

 

I find that's how they should be played and works well for me. Maru skara is cute, but not how EC actually work on the board (especially in lower point games)

I now have 30 kakophoni, all will be used on larger games, and I have plenty of other units to pick from too.

 

One last thing, mix up your list, sometimes take termies in a spartan, sometimes take 6/9 Jetbikes in seperate squads. Otherwise your opponent will

Immune his army to your list!

[Frater Cornelius]

I may lack the experience with Kakophoni as I rarely field them, but they really feel like hit or miss to me. Their lack of AP makes their performance rather lack-luster.

[Neforon]

I may lack the experience with Kakophoni as I rarely field them, but they really feel like hit or miss to me. Their lack of AP makes their performance rather lack-luster.

I played Kakophoni in my last game. They did pretty well. The points you mentioned earlier, like being ap5 and such, go for normal bolters as well. I wholeheartedly agree that I wouldnt field them if they were not troops though. Luckily, they are, with the new RoW. Their range is great, the high strength actually gets more wounds than normal bolters, they could even still charge afterwards. Not that you d want to do that of course, but If you feel your inner Marius taking over, they do come with shriekers stock, for that extra umpf.

[Da Once & Future Git]

I agree with Neforon, not everything needs AP2 and you're going to be sorely disappointed if you do, especially in troops (the only one I can think of is PotL Terminators with combi-plas).  As Troops, Kakophoni are great.  Str6 means they should put on a lot of wounds to save so hopefully should do a bit of damage over the course of a game.  Compare these to the other compulsory troops in Tactical (really need to be able to move and Fury), Assault (need to be about 50pts cheaper) or Breacher (need to be cheaper or come with melta bombs included in their price) squads and Kakophoni are head and shoulders better.  The only ones that really compare are Veterans or Termies if you take those RoW.  Another option could be the Predators as troops.  I'd really like to see a Sky Hunter Phalanx army but it's just so restrictive.

 

Like you said, EC are not a specialist assault army like WE or NL, however nor are we a specialist shooty list like IW or IF, the trick I think is going to be finding that balance between choppy and shooty so we can take advantage of their weaknesses.