[HH1.0] Emperor's Children Tactica

[Theredknight]

Yes, having an assault squad hidden behind your gun line for instance as a concealed fist is pretty good.

It's all about timing with EC

[Frater Cornelius]

That is fair. I couple laser Vindicators, Thudd Guns, Kakophoni, it really does add up. Technically, there isn't a Legion that shoots strictly better, seeing as no Legion gets straight up bonus to the aforementioned units, which are incidently some of the most efficient ones. So it is just a matter of using your melee elements effectively to support that dakka. I can work with that. This takes a lot of pressure of the Palatines if the other part of the army is torrenting the opponent every turn.

[Charlo]

That is fair. I couple laser Vindicators, Thudd Guns, Kakophoni, it really does add up. Technically, there isn't a Legion that shoots strictly better, seeing as no Legion gets straight up bonus to the aforementioned units, which are incidently some of the most efficient ones. So it is just a matter of using your melee elements effectively to support that dakka. I can work with that. This takes a lot of pressure of the Palatines if the other part of the army is torrenting the opponent every turn.

Told ya ;)

 

I actually think this is really solid. I think over the course of the game two units of Kakaphoni will totally murder an enemy slowly.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Charlo

[Terminus]

It's a matter of using your guns to systematically eliminate the most credible threats (standard target selection), so that when your melee unit sweeps in, there isn't an emplaced defense for them to bang their head against, and they can just sweep their way along.

 

I am hoping 8th edition 40K rules (you know its coming, I am betting in <1 year) will improve and incorporate the flier rules, and bring back charges from outflanking.

[Frater Cornelius]

There won't be an 8th. The way this looks is that GW is using one stable rule set and adjusts that one. If something comes, it will probably be just another consolidation and incorporation of the FAQs. If you want to call that the 8th Edition, then yes, there will be an 8th soon;)

[Charlo]

The same way that 7th was a cleaned up 6th, 8th will be that for 7th before the year is done.

[Theredknight]

Licence to print money for them

[Caustic63]

I haven't chimed in to this thread in a while, but I've been on a pilgrimage of sorts in the world of 30K. Recently I faced off against a Raven Guard army at 2500pts. and I pretty much got tabled Turn 2. In fairness he was running a formation based 40K army, but despite his overwhelming unit cost and free rules advantages I expected to make a better go at the game then I did. Following this result, I began thinking about my strategies and whether I was building an army the correct way. The list I was using is this one:

 

Emperor's Children

2500 points

RoW: 3rd Company Elite

 

HQ:

 

Lord Commander Eidolon

> Jump Pack

[goes with Tacticals]

 

Legion Centurion

> Consul: Primus Medicae

> Phoenix Power Spear, Sonic Shrieker

> Artificer Armour, MBs, Boarding Shield

[goes with Kakophoni]

 

TROOPS:

 

Kakphoni Squad (x10)

> Orchestrator w Phoenix Spear, MBs

 

Legion Tactical Squad (x10)

> Sergeant w Power Spear, MBs

> Legion Vexilla

> Sonic Shriekers

 

ELITES:

 

Legion Terminator Squad (x5)

> Tartarus Terminator Armour

> Combi-Plasma (x5)

> Power Sword (x3)

> Chainfist (x2)

Anvillus Dreadclaw Drop Pod

 

Contemptor Mortis Dreadnaught

> Two Kheres Assault Cannons

 

Phoenix Terminators (x5)

Land Raider Phobos

> Armoured Ceramite

> Frag Assault Launchers

> Dozer Blades

 

Apothecarion Detachment

> Augury Scanner

> Sonic Shrieker

 

FAST ATTACK:

 

Javelin Attack Speeder (x2)

> Cyclone Missile Launcher

> Hunter Killer Missiles (x4)

 

Legion Outriders (x5)

> TL Plasmagun (x5)

 

HEAVY SUPPORT:

 

Legion Strike Predator

> Executioner Plasma Cannon

> Heavy Bolter Sponsons

 

ARMY TOTAL     2499 pts.

 

...

 

This army seemed good to me on paper until I placed it on the table, and its flaws hit me smack in the face. This army is TOO elite, it suffers from a lack of bodies. In the past I had bulked up my troops purely to ensure I still had scoring units left by the end of the game to grab objectives (the latest edition annulled this). With two units of scoring Terminators I assumed this problem was solved, but I had completely ignored the reality of just how small my army was until the physical models were placed on the table. There are other potential problems as well, such as a general lack of anti-tank to crack open hard targets and a reliance on unreliable Outflankers to cause most of the damage (this isn't Maru Skara after all). After the game was done, I promptly swapped the Phoenix Terminators for another unit of Kakophoni, more Tactical marines, and a Primaris Lightning.

 

Another interesting thought struck me about 30K... what if large Tactical blobs (15-20) are not a tax but are actually an asset versus say a unit of Veterans, Terminators or legion unique units like Kakophoni? It's 3rd Company so I can take Shriekers on them, and in all the games I've won there has been this sense of relief that I had so many bodies to absorb the bullets while my specialists did the dirty work. This realization first hit me when 15 of my Tacticals + Apothecary were able to outshoot a unit of 10 IF Veterans with Missile Launchers and Sniper standing behind an Aegis Line. It seemed miraculous to me at the time, but looking back the math was clearly in my favour since I was loosing 30 bolt rounds to his 10 in the turns I was shooting at him (I ran during the others).

[Caustic63]

Just finished Fulgrim tonight.

 

 

I've struggled to find many games with 30K opponents that are enough points to use him (without hamstringing my army) so perhaps I should try the Primarch's Chosen RoW just to get the chance to field him. Has anyone attempted to run this arrangement with Fulgrim?

[Slips]

I've run Primarchs Chosen with Dorn.

 

The big thing to look out for is that they don't bite the dust and render your whole army non-scoring.

 

Otherwise, since both are sub 400 points, they are a pretty strong choice especially if you run Eidolon or, in my case, Sigismund who runs 230 points. +155 for Dorn? Fair enough trade.

 

Fulgrim also lets you choose 2 Warlord Traits right? So you can definitely plan around that.

[Caustic63]

I've run Primarchs Chosen with Dorn.

 

The big thing to look out for is that they don't bite the dust and render your whole army non-scoring.

 

Otherwise, since both are sub 400 points, they are a pretty strong choice especially if you run Eidolon or, in my case, Sigismund who runs 230 points. +155 for Dorn? Fair enough trade.

 

Fulgrim also lets you choose 2 Warlord Traits right? So you can definitely plan around that.

 

Interesting. I'm also a fan of Imperial Fists. Fulgrim lets you pick a Warlord Trait from the Strategic Table or Legiones Astartes table, which does open up some interesting combinations. On a city themed board having Stealth(ruins) and Move Through Cover(ruins) is a big asset for ECs, while Infiltrating Kakophoni is an interesting prospect with Master of the Ambush. A weakness of Fulgrim I'm concerned about is his lack of mobility... he almost certainly needs to be in an assault transport of some kind so he can get into combat as soon as possible. A Dreadclaw with Vets/Palatines or Spartan would make sense in this role I think.

[Slips]

If you ever found the points or the want, you could actually make decent use of Phoenix Guard as a Bodyguard unit to Fulgrim to stack combats in your Favour.

 

His flat +2 to Combat Res and the Fact that PG make Ties Wins means that, if you can sweep them, they wont be able to hold your unit down. Though this does have a double edge to it meaning it could make you too efficient at sweeping. Especially since you've got Crusader in the Mix from LA:EC.

 

However, that means a minimum of 12+ Transport Capacity to lug them around.

 

Master of Ambush would also potentially let you infiltrate a Spartan.

 

Also, his WS8 combined with any Sonic Shriekers in a unit more or less make him WS9 though it doesn't change much in non-Primarch Fights.

 

Taking Fulgrim definitely shifts your EC to a greater CC Focus.

[Lord Commander Eidolon]

Greetings honourable brethren or twisted degenerates (depending on your loyalties)

 

I'm much more of a painter than a gamer, so I've very little experience in what is effective in gaming terms. As I'm doing the ETL I actually want to paint a 'usable' force. Now I realise Catapractii aren't great for EC, but I've the B@C models and want to use them. I was thinking Paired Lightning claws for 3, a heavy flamer and claw for 1 and not really sure about the Sgt.

 

Any advice?

[Ethrion]

Greetings honourable brethren or twisted degenerates (depending on your loyalties)

 

I'm much more of a painter than a gamer, so I've very little experience in what is effective in gaming terms. As I'm doing the ETL I actually want to paint a 'usable' force. Now I realise Catapractii aren't great for EC, but I've the B@C models and want to use them. I was thinking Paired Lightning claws for 3, a heavy flamer and claw for 1 and not really sure about the Sgt.

 

Any advice?

I have cataphractii in my EC force because it's always good to have a 4++ combi-weapon/powerfist wielding sledgehammer unit. If all you've got is one B@C box though I would say go with a chainfist, a pair of claws and 3 fists. Then equip them with combi weapons and a heavy flamer.

[Charlo]

Cataphractii work as a sort of grinding unit for EC. They let you bring somewhat precision firepower in deep striking combi weapons (plasma) and then between bonuses for I and WS combined with 2+/4++ let's you stick around in the combat and deal damage before the enemy and better than then.

 

Id almost say use them with power swords but keep a chain fist around so that you can just cut through vets and the like, let your Phoenix guard handle other terminators on the charge.

 

A case can also be made for combi Melta and chain Fists to handle AV threats without ceramite.

[Terminus]

Charging Phoenix Guard into Cataphracts can be very risky unless you greatly outnumber them and/or your unit is led by a beat stick character. If their 4++ rolls are hot, those power fists will hurt in return, and you're bones in subsequent rounds.

 

If they are of the two wound variety or have FNP, I would steer clear.

[Ethrion]

Charging Phoenix Guard into Cataphracts can be very risky unless you greatly outnumber them and/or your unit is led by a beat stick character. If their 4++ rolls are hot, those power fists will hurt in return, and you're bones in subsequent rounds.

 

If they are of the two wound variety or have FNP, I would steer clear.

100% agree. I fought a great many battles vs. World Eater cataphracts and Red Butchers and ended up having to bin the Phoenix Guard in favour of cataphracts of my own.

[GorgeousGoat]

Lurking here for a while, but finally thought I'd share my thoughts:

 

I've been running 3rd Company RoW (everything has Sonic Shriekers) and found huge gains through a core of Kakophoni in Rhinos - 6" and 6" then 36" range - that's roughly an entire board, along with 2 footslogging contemptors. A Leviathan drop pod always tickles them too. 

Added to this are 2 units of Jetbikes of 5, Sergeants have a Phoenix Spear and the whole squad have metla bombs. 1 unit has a Volkite, the other a MM. 

I run a Praetor on Jetbike with Paragon Blade and a Legion Champion with Phoenix Spear (fluff reasons).

 

I won't go into a huge army list but jetbikes are now amazing "getting to the back line" units, especially with the +1I on charge, the -1WS, +1T and a 2+ save/4+ Jink. 

It helps EC get into combat fast and has serious anti-AV with the MB's. I am winning combat by +2/3 minimum when charging anything but elites (cataphracti etc) and then my opponent either targets them with everything and forgets about the advancing Kakophoni and dreadnoughts.

 

Classic pincer tactics with the Jetbikes and a strong core line. We hit hard, win the 1st round and I am yet to get to a meaningful turn 5. 

Edited May 18, 2016 by GorgeousGoat

[Caillum]

I won't go into a huge army list but jetbikes are now amazing "getting to the back line" units, especially with the +1I on charge, the -1WS, +1T and a 2+ save/4+ Jink.

This is cool, but Jetbikes can't take sonic shriekers in 3rd Company Elite - it's available to Infantry only.

 

Still, everything else sounds like it works real nice! I like it! :)

[Resonance]

I'm thinking of running 5 palatine blades with Armillus Dynat in a dreadclaw, how do you think this will go?

 

How many Phoenix spears would you all recommend?

 

Alpha legion subterfuge of all the forums.... Sorry to barge in here

[GorgeousGoat]

 

I won't go into a huge army list but jetbikes are now amazing "getting to the back line" units, especially with the +1I on charge, the -1WS, +1T and a 2+ save/4+ Jink.

This is cool, but Jetbikes can't take sonic shriekers in 3rd Company Elite - it's available to Infantry only.

 

Still, everything else sounds like it works real nice! I like it!

 

Oh poo... battlescribe let me tick them :-(

 

I thought in the red book you can give Sonic Shriekers to Jetbikers.... 

[Theredknight]

Nope just power armoured and art armoured marines.

Technically they are power armoured, but I think you use the Jetbikes armour value.

 

Post up in the battlescribe thread they are pretty good at addressing things!

[Kizzdougs]

I'm thinking of running 5 palatine blades with Armillus Dynat in a dreadclaw, how do you think this will go?

 

How many Phoenix spears would you all recommend?

 

Alpha legion subterfuge of all the forums.... Sorry to barge in here  

It depends on the size of the game, but generally five Palatine Blades won't have too much staying power. If they had artificer armour (which I feel they should) they might have more of a chance, but five power armoured marines just isn't enough for a unit that is designed exclusively for assault. You'll be able to clean up some ranged units, but will struggle against other assault specialists. I've run my Praetor and Primus Medicae with a unit of 8 Blades (3 Phoenix Spears) in an Anvillus and even then it was still a pretty fragile unit. Once they're out of the pod they're extremely vulnerable to shooting. Suzerain would make a better five man bodyguard.

[Resonance]

I definitely agree with what you are saying!

 

Everyone takes Suzerain though so I was looking for something different.

 

The reason there is so few is that this is just for a small 1500 points level games

[Kizzdougs]

I definitely agree with what you are saying!

 

Everyone takes Suzerain though so I was looking for something different.

 

The reason there is so few is that this is just for a small 1500 points level games

At 1.5k it might be workable. The unit could be effective at attacking smaller units such as Rapier Batteries and Recon Squads, as well as clearing regular Tactical Squads from objectives etc. It'll will struggle against dedicated assault units and 'deathstars' but that really depends on the other units that you have in your army and how you support them. The good thing about the Anvillus is that it will allow you to pick and choose your fights due to it's mobility, so you should be able to avoid nasty assault units and focus on the softer targets. Just make sure you watch out for units such as the Scorpius, Vindicator, Predator Executioner, Phosphex Quad Mortars, Tactical Support squads etc. as their low AP firepower will decimate the Palatines once they leave the pod.