b1soul Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Only through the unconscionable use of poorly written/conceived xenos technology. The Lion had Curze bleeding out on the floor, no excuses to be made for that Also, according to ADB, the first fight was a draw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Since I avoid any book with Dark Angels in it like Nurgle's Rot, somebody wanna spoiler me on the heretical Dark Angels and this xenos tech? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Since I avoid any book with Dark Angels in it like Nurgle's Rot, somebody wanna spoiler me on the heretical Dark Angels and this xenos tech? You shouldn't avoid DA fluff when it's written by ADB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saphrael Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 True, and while I don't want to blame ADB (God help me) but he did decide to use the gadget that Gav introduced instead of ignoring it. I'm as much of a ADB fanboy as the next B&Cer (though perhaps more discerning and critical than some), but his use of the Gavbortion did bother me. It served the purpose of the narrative (getting Thramas to a conclusion) but did so in a manner that completely robbed the victor of any kudos (perhaps that was his intention?) and added yet another asterisk to the DA's achievements. Why the Lion never used the McGuffin jump device to hop to Terra, we will never know... Personally I blame Russ That said, someone earlier mentioned their desire to see the bond between the DA and SW grow into the competitive friendship we're told it becomes - this is something I'm desperate to see and hope it makes its way into the HH series (both FW and BL) sooner rather than later. The Lion had Curze bleeding out on the floor, no excuses to be made for that Also, according to ADB, the first fight was a draw Ha, now we're starting to get some DA bias. Yes he did, and those few paragraphs are about the only time I've felt pride as a DA fan in the whole series. Then you read the encounters in Unremembered Empire and that pride disappears pretty quickly. As for the draw, I know ADB says he sees Tsagualsa as a draw, but it really, really doesn't read that way. Not to me and not to a lot of people. But I suppose that's the nature of ADB's writing sometimes. See SW and GK reactions to Emperor's Gift to understand what I mean. Kage - can't say I agree with your approach, but just Google a synopsis of the novella The Lion to catch up on what we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I did. Didn't find anything. Don't really care, hate the Dark Angels anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 You can, however, make fun of him for not painting and posting models though :PTo my great shame. :( EDIT: The only person who won Tsalgualsa was Corswain for going Achilles-Brad Pitt on Curze. And B1Spul, my "bias" is based on Savage Weapons, which has Corswain reminiscing on how annoying the Night Lords are because they were attacking Imperial worlds and then leaving before the Dark Angels could respond. One could actually argue the Night Lords didn't do any damage to the Dark Angels except for the death of that one captain at Tsalgualsa and whatever they might have done at Sheol and then the rendezvous coordinates. Of course, the general assumption is that both Legions did clash every now and then and since the Night Lords were spread out across so many fronts while the DA were simply hopping from one world to the next, that it probably ran in the favor of the DA via numerical superiority and unwillingness for a straight up fight on the part of the Night Lords. Question though, how could Tsalgualsa be anything other than a draw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Conn Cormac: Remember, Thramas saw the VIII go from being a single mass with several splinter fleets to six large mass fleets with dozens if not hundreds of splinter fleets. It might not be the soul-searching odyssey of Signus, but it still significantly changed a Legion and kept the Dark Angels from being at large for three years. Haha, I swear Kol, your posts about the Night Lords are as predictably legion-biased as fire golem's views on how many FW HH books the Ultramarines should have be about them. Eh, how did I get dragged into this? If you're saying I'm biased, I literally changed my avatar to the UM when I saw the photo of Guilliman, I'm not sure if I am doing UM yet, so I don't have any legion based bias. And I don't remember saying anything about how many books the UM should have. I thought they were just getting the one, having the Shadow Crusade in another book is cool but I wouldn't have minded if it was one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'd call Tsalguasa a draw, or marginally in the NL's favour. Mainly due to the DA captains death... Jonson was someone who had difficulty reading people and as such he relied on a select few whom he trusted. Those he felt had betrayed his trust were shipped off to Caliban, it is also witnessed in Calibanites shadowing the Terran elements of the DA. For the Lion to lose one of his trusted inner circle was far more damaging to hm than Kurze taking a sword in the back. The Night Lords gave the Dark Angels a very unique predicament as in, the way NL waged war made it almost impossible for the DA to use their favoured tactics of planning, strategising and winning. After all, its hard to defeat an enemy when they have already gone. It also showed that the Night Lords had a good grasp of tactics of which I would describe theirs as being fluid, rather than just being the batwinged crazies who pick on the weak, which is what many would eventually become and using Thramas you could use it as a point to show how the NightLords fall Night Lords tactics led to the Dark Angels becoming more spread out and trying to predict what the Night Lords next moes would be. A situation I am sure the Lion would have found most frustrating. :) My impression is that Thramas was very much a cat and mouse affair, with each side swapping between the role of cat and mouse. It also showed the 1st becoming involved in fratricide for the first time... If they had baulked at fighting brothers of a different legion, then imagine how differnt things may have been on their return to Caliban. As for not using the xeno-tech for getting to Terra, probably because from the older writings before he HH series began, we knew they were delayed...Horus knew they were on their way and so he acted. To change such a pivotal point in Warhammer history by introducing Dark Angels to the siege of Terra would destroy the mystique of the engame. Far easier to go with the dark assumption that the Dark Angels were waiting to see who the winner would be. As for significance. The Dark Angels were still at full Legion strength with a consummate strategist as commander, they had to be slowed down or stopped until such point as Horus could defeat the Emperor and see if the Lion would join him.... Coild you imagine how hard the siege for Terra would be with a 4th or even 5th Legion present to bar the gates?? (Wolves were also delayed from getting to Terra) For that the Dark Angels need heir own book, along with Night Lords.. It could include a lot of other stuff such as militias pdf etc pod assaults ambush and counter ambush. Death Guard elements and Typhon with increased Nurgly abilities.. It could be endless.. As for Blood Angels, they need to be fleshed out a whole lot more, besides Fear to tread, how much exposure have they had from the Black Library? If just based on Signus, we have daemons, cultists,daemon world scenarios, Blood Angels and possibly splinter elements of other legions too.... I am rambling now... I need coffee.. Anyhoo, the Ultramar books could be a good stepping stone to introduce more legions and primarchs, Besides the undergroundwars and shadow crusade/ ruinstorm kerfuffle you also have: DA's show up in force, Scars show up, Wolves have the Watchers arrive, BA's arrive, so theres 3 Primarchs in this book (Guillemann, Jonson and Sanguinius) not including the off his his head char-grilled Vulkan and the resurrected Night Haunter to name a few elements. Used wisely, it could give us introductions to the remaining legions in preparation for whats to come... So with that little spark I look forward to book 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'd call Tsalguasa a draw, or marginally in the NL's favour. Mainly due to the DA captains death... Jonson was someone who had difficulty reading people and as such he relied on a select few whom he trusted. Those he felt had betrayed his trust were shipped off to Caliban, it is also witnessed in Calibanites shadowing the Terran elements of the DA. For the Lion to lose one of his trusted inner circle was far more damaging to hm than Kurze taking a sword in the back. The Night Lords gave the Dark Angels a very unique predicament as in, the way NL waged war made it almost impossible for the DA to use their favoured tactics of planning, strategising and winning. After all, its hard to defeat an enemy when they have already gone. It also showed that the Night Lords had a good grasp of tactics of which I would describe theirs as being fluid, rather than just being the batwinged crazies who pick on the weak, which is what many would eventually become and using Thramas you could use it as a point to show how the NightLords fall Night Lords tactics led to the Dark Angels becoming more spread out and trying to predict what the Night Lords next moes would be. A situation I am sure the Lion would have found most frustrating. My impression is that Thramas was very much a cat and mouse affair, with each side swapping between the role of cat and mouse. It also showed the 1st becoming involved in fratricide for the first time... If they had baulked at fighting brothers of a different legion, then imagine how differnt things may have been on their return to Caliban. As for not using the xeno-tech for getting to Terra, probably because from the older writings before he HH series began, we knew they were delayed...Horus knew they were on their way and so he acted. To change such a pivotal point in Warhammer history by introducing Dark Angels to the siege of Terra would destroy the mystique of the engame. Far easier to go with the dark assumption that the Dark Angels were waiting to see who the winner would be. As for significance. The Dark Angels were still at full Legion strength with a consummate strategist as commander, they had to be slowed down or stopped until such point as Horus could defeat the Emperor and see if the Lion would join him.... Coild you imagine how hard the siege for Terra would be with a 4th or even 5th Legion present to bar the gates?? (Wolves were also delayed from getting to Terra) For that the Dark Angels need heir own book, along with Night Lords.. It could include a lot of other stuff such as militias pdf etc pod assaults ambush and counter ambush. Death Guard elements and Typhon with increased Nurgly abilities.. It could be endless.. As for Blood Angels, they need to be fleshed out a whole lot more, besides Fear to tread, how much exposure have they had from the Black Library? If just based on Signus, we have daemons, cultists,daemon world scenarios, Blood Angels and possibly splinter elements of other legions too.... I am rambling now... I need coffee.. Anyhoo, the Ultramar books could be a good stepping stone to introduce more legions and primarchs, Besides the undergroundwars and shadow crusade/ ruinstorm kerfuffle you also have: DA's show up in force, Scars show up, Wolves have the Watchers arrive, BA's arrive, so theres 3 Primarchs in this book (Guillemann, Jonson and Sanguinius) not including the off his his head char-grilled Vulkan and the resurrected Night Haunter to name a few elements. Used wisely, it could give us introductions to the remaining legions in preparation for whats to come... So with that little spark I look forward to book 6 It's a nice idea, but I'm not sure it's one they'll end up going for. From what was said their intentions are: Book 5 - The first 18-odd hours of the attack on Calth, the initial betrayal by the Word Bearers up to the destruction of the star at Calths heart. Book 6 - The Shadow Crusade and Underground War. The Word Bearers and World Eaters rampage through the Ultramar system, with Lorgar and soon-to-be ascended Angron (as I like to call it "Boys on Tour!"), and a follow up on the survivors on Calth trying to push back the remnants on the Word Bearer forces that survived the destruction of Calths star. I didn't get the impression that they were trying to bring the events of Unremembered Empire / Imperium Secondus into the books for the immediate future. I think the next three books are probably set up in terms of the narrative / content they want to cover - the only thing would be the Prospero book, which they're still working on to get the core function of the units / internal balance to work. I think that's expected from what they're trying to implement, especially on the Thousand Sons front. There's nothing beyond these three books that they're willing to talk about, except for the mention that they would like to cover off Mars at some point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simison Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 *reads through thread, notes anything BA, and doffs cap* Right then. Another year closer to a release. Cheerio. *returns to the Warden lair* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostmourne Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I'm not even sure what this thread is anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reyner Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 People whining their Legions weren't covered during the weekender? Should we change the title you think? :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theredknight Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Wonder why they did calth before signus or prospero? In their own timeline it's later.. But thems smurfs sell good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Wonder why they did calth before signus or prospero? In their own timeline it's later.. But thems smurfs sell good! By their timeline Prospero is before Istvaan, so they're already not following their chronology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jolemai Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 If I recall correctly, Prospero was to be book four but there wasn't enough time to get it ready what with all the factions that are involved. So they went with Conquest (and now Tempest). Signus was always going to be after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m_r_parker Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 If I recall correctly, Prospero was to be book four but there wasn't enough time to get it ready what with all the factions that are involved. So they went with Conquest (and now Tempest). Signus was always going to be after. Yep - previously at Weekenders Book 4 was listed as Prospero, and listed as having the Thousand Sons and Space Wolf Legions, along with Sisters of Silence and Custodians. This has been delayed for a number of reasons, but primarily comes down to 1) building a reasonable rules system and coming up with a competitive list and 2) sculpting and modelling of these four forces. They mentioned at the Weekend that they were still coming up with rules for these factions, especially the Thousand Sons, and there was still some work left. Plus you have two Legions with very strong visuals and aesthetics, along with two completely new factions that need to be built from the ground up - very time consuming. Conquest was an opportunity for them to catch up with with models from the first three books and give them some respite before launching into new Legions, and promoting Calth / Shadow Crusade up the list also helps as both the Word Bearers and World Eaters have had their basics covered in previous books, only the Ultramarines (and auxiliary forces - Imperial Militia and Warp Cults) need to be started from scratch. Signus was previously going to be in the "second trilogy" of books along with Prospero and Calth, and I think it was hinted that they were looking at ways of squeezing in the Dark Angels into that book too (probably with Thramas), but never really covered. I'm guessing this has fallen back to at least Book 8 now (if Calth / Shadow Crusade is a Book 5 / 6 combo, and Prospero is Book 7). Plus there's nothing to say that they won't release another book on the lines of Conquest to space some things out further. I know a lot of people are eagerly awaiting their legions, and hence the pressure to try and get books / miniatures out as quickly as possible, but the speed that it's currently going compared with the quality of the sculpts that are coming out - I hope they don't decide to start rushing things, because if it all starts to come out really quick you'll be left wondering "what could have been" if they had time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 Dark Angels were meant to be introduced with their actions on Sarum a long with dark mechanicus. Signus was going to be part of that book to a long with Daemons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 I have to agree with the venerable M_R_Parker. So far FW have done a brilliant job of bringing 30K alive, and I have faith they will continue to do so. Although I am hacked off at waiting for my beloved Wolves to make an HH appearance. I would rather they took their time and did it right. T-Sons fans would be royally upset if their rules made their warriors just a bunch of Grey Knight wannabees I would be royally upset too if they rushed things and I just got 7th ed Codex Space wolves v1.1 too. Hopefully they make characterful backgrounds to each faction with solid rules, decent gameplay and awe-inspiring mini's. I look forward to seeing Russ, Bjorn, Fyth Godsmote, Aun Helwintr, and co. A bit of a shame Heoroth Longfang died before Prospero though. Plus it gives me more time to save and get the models when they come out, rather than try dodging the other half while my wallets haemorrhages pretty coloured paper, coin and plastic and the power gets shut off :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 As for the draw, I know ADB says he sees Tsagualsa as a draw, but it really, really doesn't read that way. When did ADB say Tsagualsa was a draw? I know he said Lion vs. Curze R1 was a draw. I even challenged him on the topic and we had a little argument. He insisted I was misreading. I thought, based on the text, that the Lion was on the edge of getting choked to death before Corswain saved him. I could dig up the quote pretty easily if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 As for the draw, I know ADB says he sees Tsagualsa as a draw, but it really, really doesn't read that way. When did ADB say Tsagualsa was a draw? I know he said Lion vs. Curze R1 was a draw. I even challenged him on the topic and we had a little argument. He insisted I was misreading. I thought, based on the text, that the Lion was on the edge of getting choked to death before Corswain saved him. I could dig up the quote pretty easily if you're interested. Yeah please do, I haven't read that part in a while, I remember it being one of my all time favorite fights just because they pretty much killed eachother and their kids had to pull them apart going, "Daddy please stop fighting!!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 EDIT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I do think it was a draw, but it was more towards the Lions favor at the beginning, but Curze's at the end. Though for the life of me, I find it funny that people say that Curze would have choked the Lion out. Number 1, Curze gets stabbed (and I don't mean shanked, but to the freakin cross hilts of the Lions big arse sword) and doesn't die or seem to be impeded. Number 2.) Guilliman survives in space without a helmet and doesn't die from lack of oxygen or rapid depressurization. If Bobby G can survive without air in space, I think the Lion can handle getting choked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Here it is (from another forum): Dead.Blue.Clown (06-11-11, 01:28 PM): You guys can take things so literally sometimes, and indulge in the craziest flights of fancy elsewhere. Sure, when the fight was broken up, the Lion was on the losing side. But how many squillions of fights between heroes/characters/protagonists/villains have we seen where the guy on the losing side has a second wind (cracking a rock against the head of the guy strangling him) and turns the tide a moment later. It happens all the time. These are warriors that can fight for days and days. Yet another mortal wound is nothing to them. The Lion won a little bit. Then Curze won a little bit. A Dark Angel intervenes and gets slapped away. It ends as a draw several minutes later. Anyone saying it was a definite thing is miles out of whack. It was specifically a draw at the start of their war. In fact, all we know about the two primarchs meeting up again in the rest of the Heresy is that at some point, the Lion slits Curze's throat and Curze gets a serious scar from it (mentioned in Blood Reaver). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Chaplain Kage Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 I know I helped a little in steering this boat off course, but enough of the digression and let's get back to the original topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 11, 2015 Share Posted February 11, 2015 Somehow the gods of the internet shot my reply to a different thread. Weird. Please delete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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