Khorne Daemonkin - Discussion, Tactics, Background

[Scribe]

At high points levels, you very quickly reach a point where a perpetual +1 Attack or FNP is on your whole army. Our Apoc games in my group really just run like large point games. We adhere to Battle Forged lists, and so the % of infantry is decent.

 

All Stars

 

- Prince with Goredrinker, Wings, Armour. Within the first few turns he was S10. With the perpetual FNP he was also freely jumping from combat to combat.

- Lord with Jugger, Sigil, BF Armour, Axe of Khorne. AP2 at Init, EW, FNP, he was cleaning up on anything MEQ.

- Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. Funny moment of the night, as he got into it with a Knight, proceeded to pop it, and it went nova and popped the BT with a 6 on the STR D blast.

 

With Blood Tithe coming off of kills or deaths, at larger games (2K?) I dont think while running a Blood Host you'll ever be under 3 Tithe unless theres just nothing left to kill or be killed.

[AJB2K3]

I noticed that Kharne was missing, I have noticed that Skull Taker matches (Almost) Kharnes traits.
 

Picked up my copy yesterday and just started reading.

[Lagrath]

At high points levels, you very quickly reach a point where a perpetual +1 Attack or FNP is on your whole army. Our Apoc games in my group really just run like large point games. We adhere to Battle Forged lists, and so the % of infantry is decent.

 

All Stars

 

- Prince with Goredrinker, Wings, Armour. Within the first few turns he was S10. With the perpetual FNP he was also freely jumping from combat to combat.

- Lord with Jugger, Sigil, BF Armour, Axe of Khorne. AP2 at Init, EW, FNP, he was cleaning up on anything MEQ.

- Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage. Funny moment of the night, as he got into it with a Knight, proceeded to pop it, and it went nova and popped the BT with a 6 on the STR D blast.

 

With Blood Tithe coming off of kills or deaths, at larger games (2K?) I dont think while running a Blood Host you'll ever be under 3 Tithe unless theres just nothing left to kill or be killed.

 

Unfortunately for some stupid reason BTs can't take artifacts...

[Kol Saresk]

..... And? Have Bloodthirsters ever been able to get anything other than the Gifts from C: CD?

[Lagrath]

..... And? Have Bloodthirsters ever been able to get anything other than the Gifts from C: CD?

 

The gifts from C:CD, in addition to all the cool random stuff you could get, did include two categories of weapons you could default to + a list of artifacts you could pick from at the highest gift level...

[miteyheroes]

I'm weirdly tempted by a Lord of Skulls. 1,500 pt army that consists of a basic Slaughtercult plus a Lord of Skulls?

[Emperor's Furor]

I totally missed the Boon of Khorne during my game, that would of made it even better, I was just going with the single Blood Tithe a turn.

[Sheesh Mode]

- Lord with Jugger, Sigil, BF Armour, Axe of Khorne. AP2 at Init, EW, FNP, he was cleaning up on anything MEQ.

 

I thought you could only equip one artifact to a character. Did I miss something?

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

- Lord with Jugger, Sigil, BF Armour, Axe of Khorne. AP2 at Init, EW, FNP, he was cleaning up on anything MEQ.

I thought you could only equip one artifact to a character. Did I miss something?

He only has one artefact equipped. The Axe of Khorne is a melee weapon.

[arisen]

Is army-wide FNP and + 1A even possible for each entry in a blood host detachment? Boon of Khorne only seems to apply to the slaughtercult formation even though blood tithe mentions "all units with the blood for the blood god" special rule unless I'm overlooking something?

[Shard of Magnus]

The bonus boon only applies to the units in the slaughtercult formation. The formation puts a restriction on the free boon.

[Targetlock]

so if I have more than one slaughtercult in my army, do I gain one extra blood tithe point for each slaughtercult? or just one extra overall, because if so i might have to consider the options

Personally while I find the blood host restrictive I like the style and idea of if and makes it feel really different in character and army creation style from my other forces. my fave formations are the slaughtercult and the gore pack at the moment.

edit: oops, didnt notice my mistake in the first half, just ignore.

[old git]

Isn't it only one artefact per army but they can be on a single character if you like, eg a Lord with Blood Forged armour and say, Goredrinker?

[Khornestar]

Isn't it only one artefact per army but they can be on a single character if you like, eg a Lord with Blood Forged armour and say, Goredrinker?

 

Nope. One artifact per character. Each artifact can only be taken once per army.

[Targetlock]

How good is a soulgrinder? i always liked the look of them and on paper seem a bit survivable than a defiler.

[Scribe]

I think Gifts are a dead and gone next release for Daemons, and I think the Warp Storm table will be adjusted big time.

 

I really enjoyed the book and the way Blood Tithe played out last night. Its rekindled this Khorne players passion for the game.

[Emperor's Furor]

I think the Blood Tithe accurately represents a Khorne Force descending into single minded slaughter. How many times in books have we read Berzerkers throwing off wounds and wreaking absolute havoc the longer they spend in combat, giving them Feel No Pain and an additional attack really represents that well now.

[Targetlock]

I think the Blood Tithe accurately represents a Khorne Force descending into single minded slaughter. How many times in books have we read Berzerkers throwing off wounds and wreaking absolute havoc the longer they spend in combat, giving them Feel No Pain and an additional attack really represents that well now.

 

this is how i feel about it, a rampaging tide of mayhem :)

[Cheex]

so if I have more than one slaughtercult in my army, do I gain one extra blood tithe point for each slaughtercult? or just one extra overall, because if so i might have to consider the options :)

The Slaughtercult doesn't add any tithe points. That is only for the Blood Host.

 

But yes, if you have multiple Blood Hosts, you will gain multiple free tithe points.

[Targetlock]

so if I have more than one slaughtercult in my army, do I gain one extra blood tithe point for each slaughtercult? or just one extra overall, because if so i might have to consider the options

The Slaughtercult doesn't add any tithe points. That is only for the Blood Host.

But yes, if you have multiple Blood Hosts, you will gain multiple free tithe points.

yeah just noticed this when i was looking at the book oops

[NoLifeKing]

I just have to put it out here, the flying monsters summoned in the daemonkin do NOT have to come in swooping as they deep strike it. 
The rule that states flying monsters having to swoop after deep striking says spesificly that when they come from deep strike RESERVES the monster will automatically swoop. Also the flying monsters that can can be summoned by malefic powers are spesifcly stated in the conjuring type of psychic powers to be counted as driving from reserves for all intents and purposes. But the daemons summoned by the codex daemonkin are not said to come from reserves, nor mentioned to be counted coming from reserves, so the princes and thirsters you summon are not forced to swoop as they deep strike but are instead allowed to choose to be gliding or swooping as they move on to the table by deep striking and if gliding is chosen they can charge on the turn following their deep strike. And to prevent the argument that the wording in the deep strike rules could be arguable.. that ariving from deep strike reserves and simply deep striking are two different scenarios because the codex itself mentions deep strike reserves and summoning as two different things in one of the codex specific tactical objective "murder-call"

So, fellow brothers… deep your thirsters and charge the opponent with a feral grin on your lips ;)

[Teetengee]

Would stacking msu blood hosts be possible, enough and we could get much of what we want every turn.

[NoLifeKing]

I don't know if stacking multiple bloodhosts would actually be all too beneficial… as you would have to put quite many points in the tax units such as the possessed.

[Khornestar]

Probably won't win any tournaments with it, but 2 could still make for a killer list.

[Nehekhare]

I just have to put it out here, the flying monsters summoned in the daemonkin do NOT have to come in swooping as they deep strike it.

The rule that states flying monsters having to swoop after deep striking says spesificly that when they come from deep strike RESERVES the monster will automatically swoop. Also the flying monsters that can can be summoned by malefic powers are spesifcly stated in the conjuring type of psychic powers to be counted as driving from reserves for all intents and purposes. But the daemons summoned by the codex daemonkin are not said to come from reserves, nor mentioned to be counted coming from reserves, so the princes and thirsters you summon are not forced to swoop as they deep strike but are instead allowed to choose to be gliding or swooping as they move on to the table by deep striking and if gliding is chosen they can charge on the turn following their deep strike. And to prevent the argument that the wording in the deep strike rules could be arguable.. that ariving from deep strike reserves and simply deep striking are two different scenarios because the codex itself mentions deep strike reserves and summoning as two different things in one of the codex specific tactical objective "murder-call"

So, fellow brothers… deep your thirsters and charge the opponent with a feral grin on your lips

I've discussed this argument for a while now and this is what I think about it:

SHORT VERSION: deep strike always necessitates deep strike reserves (thus FMCs "arrive" swooping), but deployment from DS reserves is a "move" (so they may change flight modes immediately).

LONG VERSION:

THE PROBLEM: "If a Flying Monstrous Creature arrives via Deep Strike Reserves, it always counts as being in Swooping mode" (BRB 68)

and also: "At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature must declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn. If a Flying Monstrous Creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn."" (ibidem, "Changing flight mode")

Codex: Khorne Daemonkin (appendix, designers note under blood tithe) explicitly states: "When a rule indicates that a unit is summoned, a new unit under your control immediately arrives via Deep Strike within range of the specified unit(s) on the board."

"Arriving by Deep Strike" (BRB 162) tells us to "Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves (pg. 135) and then deploy them as follows: [...]"

SIDE NOTE: There is no argument to be made about deep strike not including reserves, as the rules Deep Strike (BRB 162) clearly state:

"In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135). When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive via Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike."

This includes the case that a model didn't exist before and is placed in reserve immediately with arrival. Precedence for this exact situation would be daemons summoned by Conjuration, the rules parallelling the blood tithe rules almost word for word: "the new unit then arrives via Deep Strike (pg 162), within the power's maximum range; the new unit is under your control and is treated as having arrived from Reserves for all rules purposes"

So, how does "Arriving from Reserves" then work? BRB 135, referenced above, says: "When Reserves arrive, pick one of your arriving units and deploy it, moving onto the table as describes below [...] you must first roll for all Reserves, and then move any arriving Reserves, before any other units can move".

Rolling is skipped because summoned units arrive "immediately". Deployment after arrival is explicitly stated to be a move.

CONCLUSION: a summoned FMC "arrives" in Swooping mode, but then moves to deploy on the table, immediately declaring what flight mode to use until the start of its next turn.

It cannot charge during the same turn it was summoned (for two reasons: coming from reserves and changing flight modes), but is free to do so next turn.

END OF ARGUMENT------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reason that there is a "default" mode for arriving FMCs is simply to prevent the paradox that otherwise it would have no mode at all if not changed.

Because not all units arrive during the start of the player's turn, they would then have "skipped" the moment to decide, which is not elegible.

The intent seems to be to always let the player decide what mode to use, but grant the enemy 1 turn (not 2!) of shooting before charges (as it is with all other forms of deployment).

Note that a BT summoned from the axe of ruin during the enemy turn thus arrives and moves (changing modes) to deploy even before his own turn.

And yes, contrary to what it may have been played like in previous editions, this implies that all effects that trigger when DSing from reserves (like interceptor) do indeed trigger by all kinds of deep strike (veil, skies of blood) - as they should! It would in fact be much more complicated to assume two different kinds of DS (from reserves/without reserves - which the first paragraph of the DS rules explicity forbid!), that treat the exact same unit (BT summoned from malefic/blood tithe, Veil teleporting/DSing) differently.