Sception Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 The intent most certainly does not seem to be to grant that choice. Otherwise the restriction wouldn't be there at all, it would simply tell you to pick a mode. The intention is clearly the opposite, for the restriction, dumb as it is, to actually be a restriction, and any interpretation that says otherwise is just wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoLifeKing Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I disagree, the whole idea behind the codex daemonkin appears to be around summoning those daemons, fluff wise and rules wise. So how would it be farfetched to find the rules working for the good of that ideology? Summoning a bloodthirster sounds kinda pointless when you need to wait for 3 turns until you can actually make use of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 This is what I posted on warseer, still seems applicable. I think the fundamental point here is that the rules in the main book do not work for BLood Tithe summons. The very first part of the Deep Strike rule is that units that are deep striking must be placed in reserves at the beginning of the game. From that point on deep striking DOES mean deep striking from reserves because that is the only way it can happen (the conjuring rules specify that they're treated as coming from reserves for all rule purposes). Daemons summoned via Blood Tithe are NOT treated as reserves for all purposes, there is nothing to suggest they are. So now we have a breach 1) They must deep strike 2) they cannot be in reserves because you must be placed in reserves at the start of the game (or have a specific rule, such as conjouring or ongoing reserves) 3) they must be in reserves to deep strike. Solutions 1) They are count as being in reserves (even though this breaches the rules) 2) They count as deep striking but not from reserves (even though this isn't defined anywhere in the rules) Edit: One thing I will say is there doesn't appear to be a clear RAW in this, it just doesn't work without making assumptions. But nor does there appear to be a clear RAI either. It would have been very easy to reuse the conjuration rules with the 'reserves' but. It would have been just as easy to add a 'chose mode' bit as well. It seems a bit of a cock up really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 The intent most certainly does not seem to be to grant that choice. Otherwise the restriction wouldn't be there at all, it would simply tell you to pick a mode. The intention is clearly the opposite, for the restriction, dumb as it is, to actually be a restriction, and any interpretation that says otherwise is just wrong. I don't know about intent. If anything, it seems they wanted things to get shot for ONE turn before charging. And they indeed say you pick a mode - you only count as swooping before you are able to do so, just in case. The very first part of the Deep Strike rule is that units that are deep striking must be placed in reserves at the beginning of the game. That is not true. Paragraph 1 of the DS rules (BRB 162) says: "In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve (pg 135). When placing the unit in Reserve, you must tell your opponent that it will be arriving by Deep Strike (sometimes called Deep Strike Reserve). Some units must arrive via Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike." They're in Reserves when THEY begin the game, not necessarily at the beginning of the game itself. Some DSing unit don't even exist at that point in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targetlock Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 hoping for an FAQ on this, because the main rules say one thing and the style of the army rules and how the daemons are supposed to appear is another, the background describes the bloodthirster bursting forth not coming down from on high for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 I disagree, the whole idea behind the codex daemonkin appears to be around summoning those daemons, fluff wise and rules wise. So how would it be farfetched to find the rules working for the good of that ideology? Summoning a bloodthirster sounds kinda pointless when you need to wait for 3 turns until you can actually make use of it. Two turns, not three. But even then, does waiting even one turn make any more sense? Basing your opinion on what must have been intended based on what would be good in the game doesn't seem to be very valid. Lots of things in the game were 'intended' to be good, but aren't. Summoning Bloodthirsters is just one of those things. As for 'bursting forth' rather than 'descending down' - regular deep striking daemons are supposed to be materializing out of nothing, not floating down, yet the restriction remains for thirsters that deep strike normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 well, my solution here shows how the rules as written make that only 1 turn before charges - regardless of method of deployment (while also patching some loopholes regarding interceptor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 Good point about 'they' beginning the game in reserves. That sorts out that issue :) But as for deepstriking being a 'move' AFTER they enter play (the point where deepstriking unit is said to be swooping), I'm not so sure about. But running would be, as they're not tied to a particular mode until their next turn. So that would suggest they could change in the next turn. Although this applies to all deepstriking FMC. The only question is whether a 'run' is a 'move'. A 'move' is defined anywhere as a special event that only happens on the movement phase. Whereas a 'run' is referred to as a 'move' throughout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted April 6, 2015 Share Posted April 6, 2015 It would make more sense if they just turned up and from then on could move however they wanted, including the turn after, that's the whole point of daemonic incursions they are a shock attack, they don't turn up and sit around and then attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trokair Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 As Heralds can take very little equipment I am now looking at Lords on Juggers. What equipment and weapon choices are good? I am considering an Axe of Khorne and Power fist for the +1 attack for two specialist and that I can deal with any thread in combat by choosing one or the other as needed. Alternatively Axe of Khorne and Lightning claw for the same +1 attack and better chance of wounding MEQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 The problem i have with heralds in this book is that , even though they have a good statline, they have no acces to wargear and they are a full HQ choice contrary to the Deamon dex. They should either have acces to a wieder wargear or be 1-4 per HQ choice, or having a formation where you can take more then one. Now yes they are cheap, but is that really enough? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Oh noes! The daemons that only manifest with swords don't have access to power fists, lightning claws, and axes! They can only take the Brazen Rune, the Skull-Helm and the Blade of Endless Bloodshed! How e'er will we survive? The only way that will change is if GW decides to actually give the Daemonkin access to the Lower, Greater and Exalted Gifts. Which so far, they have not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 If you have little interest in a suped up HQ then it's good to have a cheap option to run naked in a Blood Host. That way you can pump out more of the other stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targetlock Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 In small games a cheap herald is ideal in my opinion, in our store 600pt campaign my force is led by a herald on juggernaut. cheap and effective :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 The daemons that only manifest with swords don't have access to power fists, lightning claws, and axes! They can only take the Brazen Rune, the Skull-Helm and the Blade of Endless Bloodshed! Actualy there are letters with axs. And if one goes realy back in time there are even some with hook spears and halabards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Didn't they have glaives at one point? Or was that a devil in D&D? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 That was back in 3rd Ed Jeske. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 In a game of high points, I'm really interested in trying out the Blood Throne for some lulz. Sure it can be destroyed fairly easily, but blocking LOS with some Rhinos and tying up shooty infantry/walkers could buff the entire wave of gore with Hatred. I love the sound of that, especially at WS4 or better on our useful units. Shoot, the WS3 Maulerfiends would really benefit too. No shooting to worry about, so it can just flat out and zip around the entire game. I built my 2 kits as Skull Cannons, so I may actually need to buy another of them to build as the throne! Never thought that would happen. Maybe I'll custom-build one manned by a CSM Lord instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 END OF ARGUMENT------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The last vestige of a poor argument. Despite agreeing on the final result, we certainly disagree on the means. As Heralds can take very little equipment I am now looking at Lords on Juggers. What equipment and weapon choices are good? I am considering an Axe of Khorne and Power fist for the +1 attack for two specialist and that I can deal with any thread in combat by choosing one or the other as needed. Alternatively Axe of Khorne and Lightning claw for the same +1 attack and better chance of wounding MEQ. I take my lord with lightning claw and power fist, plus a sigil, on a jugger. He kills things dead, no fancy wargear, just face punching. Alternatively, I like the blood point sword to mix things up, less raw killing power, though more utility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 that is hurtful. but at least a poor argument is better than no argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Guys, you've both made your points of view clear on the issue. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic and productive, could we please just let it go and move on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 My juggerlord for this book has Jugger, Aura or Sigil, Axe of Khorne, Blood-forged Armour. I like the Goredrinker, but not with Unwieldy so that goes to my Prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I find that it is a shame that the blood throne radius isn't wider. But i think there is something to be done with... 2Maulers close together with the gorepack around and the blood throne in the middle..., mmh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornestar Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 I find that it is a shame that the blood throne radius isn't wider. But i think there is something to be done with... 2Maulers close together with the gorepack around and the blood throne in the middle..., mmh... Yeah 12" would have been ace, but at least it buffs units instead of models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Targetlock Posted April 7, 2015 Share Posted April 7, 2015 Can the blood throne join units? i also like the idea of them, but not the model. I was thinking of converting the warhammer chaos chariot :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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