brother_contagion Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Not sure if this has been addressed yet, but would a Blood Host Detachment have Objective Secured or is that only in Combined Arms Detachments? Thats a CAD, Allied thing. So an Allied Detachment would have Objective Secured? I've only ever used a CAD and very minimal formations so I've never had an extensive read of that part of the rule book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Allied CAD have obsec, but no other type of detachment does. Ie any detachment in KDK does not have obsec, replacing it with whatever benefits the codex specifies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992646 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nehekhare Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 For me, the Codex works as it stands, a good way to collect and paint models which feels like it has a purpose on the battlefield. GW is a model company, and the new formations and detachments are good way to organise collections of models. I'm intrigued...in what way have your painting and buying skills improved compared to unbound army composition? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992647 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 He said nothing about improved, only that KDK offers a good way to collect and paint, which it does if you like the book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shard of Magnus Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Finally got the chance to sit down and read through the codex. Overall a nice production - pictures are excellent and the text does a good job conveying the atmosphere of the list. Definitely not a generic Khorne codex (nor did I expect it to be one). The 120 page count sounds good but I'd guess 40-50% of the book is taken up by graphics. I guess about 20% of the book is rules and the rest is narrative and fluff. I haven't been keeping up with the latest codex releases so not sure if this is the current standard or new with this book. General thoughts on army list: While it's not mandatory, I'm finding it hard to not make lists based around the Blood Host detachment. Fluff states it represents the typical structure so I suppose this was intentional. Blood frenzy (BLOOD!) giving +1 blood tithe (BLOOD!) just feels too strong even with the required unit of possessed and limited ways to cheaply get another HQ outside of a CAD. It does feel like the lack of cult terminators is a missed opportunity. Where are my 40K Red Butcher equivalents! Maybe the possessed will have to stand in as a lesser option. Not a huge deal and I'm sure the points cost would have been ugly if they had done it, but providing the termi equivalent to berserkers would have been awesome. Maybe possessed will do okay in the list just due to higher priority target saturation and lots of CC focus...maybe. Charnel cohorts deep strike rule could be interesting in a list built around it. Throw in some blood banners to provide additional anchor points and have fun using the HQ to create a large threat bubble. Not being able to immediately charge is a drawback but looks to be decently cheap as a glass cannon threat. This formation feels like a lot of the list: things appear to have some synergy, the perks can be nice, but the base is still CSM/daemon. It will be interesting to see how quickly different builds can rack up blood tithe. Being able to rapidly generate points in the first 2 turns seems like it will be key to how effective the army is. I generally prefer maulerfiends but am now considering forge fiends just for the option to get additional blood tithe points early on. Haven't convinced myself that it will be worth it. May not even try it as the maulerfiend helps create pressure early on and I expect my lists will be surging to get in to combat. So easy to spam AV12 daemon engines. Holy smokes! Not sure this is a good thing but they are also the only real way to get any effective long range shooting. Artefacts of Slaughter all feel a tad bit expensive for what they offer. Also very disappointed to not have a daemon weapon option. I suspect the armor will be a staple in every list and the others will only be taken rarely. This is just a feeling though - they may turn out to be useful with the list. The armchair general in me is just skeptical. Since I don't play daemons, I didn't really notice the lack of gifts for the daemonkin versions. Truthfully, I hate instability so much that not having to deal with that is well worth the trade off. I also am concerned with the point cost of everything and needing enough bodies to withstand getting in to (and surviving) CC. Gifts, while a nice boon, would be just another source to bleed points away when daemons are some of the cheapest options to field. This way it is easier to view the daemons, like the rest of the list, as readily expendable. Let the blood flow! Tactical objectives are fluffy and fit in well with the theme of kill them all. I predict that my luck will be to always draw the card that requires you to manifest a psychic power. Again...and again...and again. Too bad since I doubt I'll ever ally in a sorcerer. One thing I didn't notice being mentioned is that the extra free blood tithe result only affects units in the slaughtercult formation. So you're not going to get two army wide benefits in many cases. I guess that also means you can make a choice for each slaughtercult if you're playing enough points to take multiple. I haven't gotten far on army list variations. Need to wrap my head around the blood tithe and formations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I don't have my book yet, but can you take the formations without taking a blood host? Normally anyone can take the formations in other books, right? So my Chaos Daemons Combined Arms detachment could also take several of the Khorne Daemonkin Maulerfiend detachments in a joint list? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992763 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shard of Magnus Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The war engine option that lets you take up to 8 daemon engines is only part of the blood host. There's not a separate formation for it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slayer le Boucher Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yeah, GW doesn't think ahead for a lot of things. But for once they saw the cheese of 8 maulerfiends in a CSM or Deamon Army... Anyway got 10 of these in my mail. http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/673/T2ldmD.jpg And a black T-shirts that goes with it, and Blood for the Blood god from debauchery on my phone, where i will play the first seconds of the song whne i get Blood points, if i can't win the game my classical means, i will Psychologicaly scare my opponent! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lagrath Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The war engine option that lets you take up to 8 daemon engines is only part of the blood host. There's not a separate formation for it. :-( I can only wait patiently for 6-18 months until a Nurgle Daemonkhin book an/or a new CSM book (oh we're so outdated...) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
thraxdown Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 What about the gorepack, charnel cohort and brazen something or other? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Allied CAD have obsec, but no other type of detachment does. Ie any detachment in KDK does not have obsec, replacing it with whatever benefits the codex specifies. IIRC, it isn't it Battle-Forged armies that have Objective Secured? If so, “If you are using the Unbound method, simply use the datasheets later in this section that correspond to the models in your collection. If you are using the Battle-forged method, you will instead need to organise the models in your collection into Detachments. This is a fun process in its own right. The most common of these are the Combined Arms and Allied Detachments. Note that you can also include any of the Formations presented in this section as part of a Battle-forged army. The Blood Host Detachment is a special type of Detachment that can be included in any Battle-forged army. Unlike the Detachments shown in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules, it has a Force Organisation Chart whose slots are a combination of specific Formations and Army List Entries instead of Battlefield Roles. However, it still has compulsory and optional elements, as well as Restrictions and Command Benefits, just like any other Detachment. Although units cannot normally belong to more than one Detachment, units from a Formation that is part of a Blood Host Detachment are an exception. They count as part of both their Formation and the Detachment, and have all associated Command Benefits and[…]” Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Codex - Khorne Daemonkin.” Games Workshop Ltd, 2015-03-16. iBooks. This material may be protected by copyright. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Gorepack - 2-4 Bikes, 1-4 Hounds Charnel Cohort - All the daemons in various configurations. Brazen Onslaught - 1-4 Termi, 2-4 Crushers EDIT: Something I was thinking about. Rhino's are a bit of a dud in an Assault army, as you only get to assault by T3. Rhino's, have Blood for the Blood God, and award Tithe when destroyed. Ride on up, pop smoke, or not and get out T2. If we are hoping to get Tithe Rewards 4 and 3, someone would need to break it down, but T3 or T4 would likely be the ideal time for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rain Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 You're mixing terms Kol. A battle forged army is any army that isn't unbound, ergo any army made up of detachments. Combined arms is a type of detachment, and is common to all armies and gives obsec. Other detachments ie the ones in this book on the other hand, give other bonuses instead of obsec, but that doesn't mean that an army built from these detachments is not battle forged, it is, it just uses different detachments from CAD, and therefore does not gain obsec unless you take a CAD instead of Slaughter Cult or whatever. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992839 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Ah, thanks for answering my question. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992844 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yes, Ob Sec is specific to particular detachment/formations. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992845 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucio Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm intrigued...in what way have your painting and buying skills improved compared to unbound army composition? The Blood Host detachment encourages formations to be added, those formations in turn are all reasonable purchases for a month's assembly and painting (at least at minimum squad size), so collecting towards a completed Blood Host gives a goal and a reason to want specific miniatures. Doesn't improve my painting skills though, that's what B&C is for! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Not sure if this was mentioned already, but I did some calculations and found out that total amount of bloodthirsters is 19173960 :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992953 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Not sure if this was mentioned already, but I did some calculations and found out that total amount of bloodthirsters is 19173960 :D? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3992994 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I have some questions as I'm not familiar with formations. If I use a Slaughtercult a long with a command and two or three war engine auxiliary, a long with some units like a bike unit, and a herald will the army have objective secured? Also how do you think they achieved the Brazen Beasts colour scheme model wise? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3993006 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Units in a Combined Arms Detachment or Allies Detachment will have Objective Secured. The whole army must be battle forged (all units fulfilling either detachment or formation requirements). So if you use a Slaughtercult formation they won't have Objective Secured, regardless of anything else. If you ran a Slaughtcult AND an Allies Detachment, the allies Detachment only would have Objective Secured. Not sure if this was mentioned already, but I did some calculations and found out that total amount of bloodthirsters is 19173960 ? 1st Host 8^1 = 8 2nd Host 8^2 = 64 3rd Host 8^3 = 512 4th Host 8^4 = 4096 5th Host 8^5 = 32768 6th Host = 262144 7th Host = 2097152 8th Host = 16777216 Total = 19173960 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3993009 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperor's Furor Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Isn't it part of a Blood Host Detachment though, doesn't that get Objective secured? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3993012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Units in a Combined Arms Detachment or Allies Detachment will have Objective Secured. The whole army must be battle forged (all units fulfilling either detachment or formation requirements). So if you use a Slaughtercult formation they won't have Objective Secured, regardless of anything else. If you ran a Slaughtcult AND an Allies Detachment, the allies Detachment only would have Objective Secured.Not exactly. As pointed out above, a Blood Host army is still Battle-Forged, but it does not benefit from the Objective Secured because only CAD armies benefit from Objective Secured. The reason being is that Objective Secured is a benefit that CAD armies have while Blood Host armies do not. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3993013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadman Wade Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Not sure if this was mentioned already, but I did some calculations and found out that total amount of bloodthirsters is 19173960 ? Well, topic name includes "background", so I thought this would be appropriate place to talk about this interesting fact. Sorry, if I'm wrong Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3993016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adra'Melek Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 That's what I said wasn't it? Combined Arms Detachment units and Allied Detachment units get Objective Secured if the whole army is Battle Forged Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3993017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Not sure if this was mentioned already, but I did some calculations and found out that total amount of bloodthirsters is 19173960 ? Well, topic name includes "background", so I thought this would be appropriate place to talk about this interesting fact. Sorry, if I'm wrong No, you're right. I just didn't know what the context was. That's what I said wasn't it? Combined Arms Detachment units and Allied Detachment units get Objective Secured if the whole army is Battle ForgedApologies. I misunderstood and thiught you were saying only CAD armies are Battle-Forged, not that CAD armies only get Objective Secured if all detachments within the army meet the requirements for Battle-Forged. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/305221-khorne-daemonkin-discussion-tactics-background/page/7/#findComment-3993026 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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