Starting out: Rangers or Vanguard?

[Marshal Ommadon]

3x Plasma Cavaliers is 9 It Gets Hot shots, someone is going to melt guaranteed.  I like 2x Plasma and 1x Arc Rifle, still have at least one Haywire shot to strip a last HP off a vehicle.

[MithrilForge]

good point Marshall....but you could Kill 9 marines ...its all a gamble (han solo voice-) "And Don't tell me the odds!"

but yeah im liking the Arc rifle though...

Mithril

[skeletoro]

If the vanguard alpha is your warlord in a battle maniple, all the vanguard in that unit gets the rerolls from his preferred enemy. So that's a 1/36 chance of gets hot per shot, with a 1/2 chance of failing the save.

 

That gives you about a 88% chance of no Gets Hot wounds.

 

Edit: I didn't work Feel No Pain into that calculation. You can FnP a GH! wound, correct? That makes it more like 90% (10% chance of taking 1 or more wounds from Gets Hot per shooting phase).

[MithrilForge]

If the vanguard alpha is your warlord in a battle maniple, all the vanguard in that unit gets the rerolls from his preferred enemy. So that's a 1/36 chance of gets hot per shot, with a 1/2 chance of failing the save.

That gives you about a 88% chance of no Gets Hot wounds.

Edit: I didn't work Feel No Pain into that calculation. You can FnP a GH! wound, correct? That makes it more like 90% (10% chance of taking 1 or more wounds from Gets Hot per shooting phase).

Now This what i was wanting to hear My vanguard Alpha im putting together was going to sorta be my "Warlord" type....this just confirms pressing the "ENTER" Button on his protocol download

Although...a second squad with a mix of cavalier & arc rifles is in queue for Downloading to my paint desktop....

now i just have to go check out the post about our Glass walkers and see how best to use em (i put only "one" on order just in case they were ...sub par)

Mithril

[Vel'Cona]

To some extent, I've argued the point that it's not really worth getting overly fussed about the Plasma Caliver Gets Hot! deaths in either case; I treat them as a high-risk high-reward weapon, where the chance to kill 5-6 marines a turn (without counting Imperatives) is offset by the solid odds of losing 1 or 2 of these guys over the course of a game.  I wouldn't run 8 units of them or anything, but a unit or two with maxed Calivers is a serious threat that your opponent will work to remove, which helps to predict his plays and punishes him if he chooses to ignore them.

 

As for the Ironstriders, I'm going to opine that many folks are underestimating them.  Yes, AV11 Open Topped is a bit of a bummer, but these have ridiculous range and the cost is very fair for the punch they bring!  A stock unit of 3 Ironstriders clocks in at 165 points, and is throwing 3 glancing hits a turn (with average rolls) at AV 11, with a proper threat range of 57"!  (that's 48" range and 9" move with Dunestrider).  Even against AV 12 this unit will do very well, especially when the odd penetrating hit lands.  I think the big problem for many players will be that these really need to be in larger units, and they're prohibitively expensive, cost-wise.

[skeletoro]

Two cavalier detachments would actually be quite durable in a way.

 

If you're talking a unit size of one, there's going to be a fair bit of enemy fire wasted on overkill. And that goes for melee to some extent, too. Imagine: 3 individual dragoons charge 5 th+ss terminators. They kill two terminators and the 3 remaining terminators strike back. Each terminator must declare which strider it is directing its 2 attacks towards. Imagine that they get one glance each. If they'd split their attacks evenly, they won't have killed any striders. If they all allocated to the same strider, the extra hull point is wasted - two striders remain at full HP and the one that died absorbed 3 hp worth of attacks before being wrecked, not 2.

[MithrilForge]

Two cavalier detachments would actually be quite durable in a way.

If you're talking a unit size of one, there's going to be a fair bit of enemy fire wasted on overkill. And that goes for melee to some extent, too. Imagine: 3 individual dragoons charge 5 th+ss terminators. They kill two terminators and the 3 remaining terminators strike back. Each terminator must declare which strider it is directing its 2 attacks towards. Imagine that they get one glance each. If they'd split their attacks evenly, they won't have killed any striders. If they all allocated to the same strider, the extra hull point is wasted - two striders remain at full HP and the one that died absorbed 3 hp worth of attacks before being wrecked, not 2.

And Dont Forget that you may have just shot at said terminators with one of your Ranger squads 3x Transuranic arquebus's ....

Mithril

[Brother Amarel]

Are people actually planning on firing all those Plasma Calivers without the +2 or +3 BS Doctrina Imperitive? I very much doubt that they'll get more than a couple of turns of shooting anyhow (at least not with all 3 Special Weapons alive).

[Tiger9gamer]

So should I get the plasma gun instead? I still have to decide on the sniper or something else.

funny enough, im at the same point you are with this...and following the same path too. after swapping some bursts of data with Rashbold about equipment choices etc

im starting my force with your option 2 also.

Option 2:

5 rangers with 1 sniper, omni-spex - have done this

5 vanguard with 1 arc rifle, omni-spex

-alpha with arc pistol - have done this also but added a pwr wpn to the alpha

what do you mean about should you get the plasma(cavalier)..if you made the above option you have no models left or have you not made the vanguard squad and are trying to decide differently?

i would (later on when you have more models) go with a squad with 3x plasma cavaliers.

Mithril

Yea , I didnt make the sniper yet so i'm still kinda still deciding. so far I made 1 arc rifle, 1 "omni-spex" ranger (datateather count as), 1 omni-spex vanguard, and 3 regular rangers (one will be prime)

still need to make sniper, Vanguard prime and the other vanguards.

Honestly I still need another kit, but I think I need that onager first.

[Marshal Ommadon]

Just my codex, 2 boxes of Sicarians, and 1 more Ironstrider.  My army grows!

[MithrilForge]

YAY got the dex today

it looks like Ryza is going to be my new forge world (Orange is the new Red )

i've got 1 box of each unit coming and an ironstrider (still indecisive about which way to go there)

gotta save up for some onagers though....this dex is looking like a combo of FUN+WIN.

Yea , I didnt make the sniper yet so i'm still kinda still deciding. so far I made 1 arc rifle, 1 "omni-spex" ranger (datateather count as), 1 omni-spex vanguard, and 3 regular rangers (one will be prime)

still need to make sniper, Vanguard prime and the other vanguards.

Honestly I still need another kit, but I think I need that onager first.

still not sure i want to give rangers arc rifles(24" range)...i think i may want to keep em back at 30" so they can harass troops and snipe out of standard range. i think the transuranic arq (TA) is the best spec wpn for them...at the moment...please give response if you see a flaw in my logic.

@ tiger9 - make the sniper ranger

[Vel'Cona]

I'm in the opposite camp on the TA, simply because it's only one shot and the roll to wound is the more serious issue (yeah we can make it hit on 2's most of the time, but you still need a 4+ to land a wound).  AP3 is nice for taking out a marine here or there, but the cost of 25 points means you're using a very expensive gun to kill a much less expensive model.  Precision Shots will help, but your odds of getting even one with a maxed out TA toting squad are 50/50 most turns.  If you decide to go for tanks, you're making better use of the TA since it will average 11 or 12 to armor pen rolls (S4 + 2d6 for Armourbane), but even then you're relegated to going for transports and flyers, neither of which the rest of your force will have trouble engaging.

 

I am definitely not saying the TA is a bad weapon: the range is excellent, Relentless means you're not static when using them, and they're flexible enough to go after a few different targets.  It's more so that I think the other two special weapons have more to offer for specific threat counters, ie. the Calivers can mop up power armored enemies (and Necrons) and the Arc Rifles are death incarnate to almost any tank.

[skeletoro]

A transuranic arquebus has the same odds of glancing a land raider as a krak missile - one in six. But half the TA's glances will actually be pens. So it's almost as good as half a lascannon vs. Heavy armour.

 

It's a weird weapon.

[heron]

I think the thing that appeals with the TA is the range and the possibilities from the precision shot. I have been thinking that they are a good backfield objective holder that has the possibilities of neutralizing a specific threat here and there (such as a special weapon guy. Five rangers with 2x TA's and and omniscope is only a little bit more than a scout sniper squad and is potentially way more effective. I am planning on using my skitarii as a support for 2-3 knights, so the threat neutralization is a big part of the appeal.

[Brother Amarel]

I do quite like the TA, but I've been thinking that it probably works best in a min-maxed unit of 5 (rather than the full 10, with three specials, that Plasma Calivers and Arc Rifles want).

[heron]

I do quite like the TA, but I've been thinking that it probably works best in a min-maxed unit of 5 (rather than the full 10, with three specials, that Plasma Calivers and Arc Rifles want).

That's definitely my approach. One extra shot isn't worth the investment. I am considering a six ranger squad though to have an extra wound to spare.

[CommodusXIII]

I'm chewing on a 500 pt list with 1 min/maxed Ranger squad with TAs, 1 min/maxed Vanguard squad with plasma and 1 maxed squad with arc. Might try to shoehorn a basic ADL into it too for cover.

[Vel'Cona]

Don't get me wrong, I'll be trying all three special weapons in maxed squads.  I am interested to test the TA's ability to take out other special weapon guys or the odd sergeant . . .

[Tiger9gamer]

You know I saw a game today where skitarii got kinda destroyed by guard, but then again the skitarri player was 200pts short due to bad math and refuses to bring arc rifles for some reason. 

 

(plus it was a wierd campaign thing i'm in)

 

 

with the limited range on vanguard I have been leaning more towards rangers now... the galvanic rifle is murder against anything non-power armor and will hurt most things at range. I'm thinking a ranged list with rangers and onagers sitting back and hitting hard in ruins.

[CommodusXIII]

I decided to review the WD rules one more time before assembling my models to ensure that I maintain WYSIWYG - apet peeve of mine. I found something that I want to confirm with the group.

 

For the Ranger/Vanguard Alphas, the rules say that they can take weapons from the armory. However, it does not say that they replace their standard weapons if they do so - their graviton rifle/rad carbine, respectively. Do they keep their standard weapon as well?

[Brother Amarel]

I decided to review the WD rules one more time before assembling my models to ensure that I maintain WYSIWYG - apet peeve of mine. I found something that I want to confirm with the group.

 

For the Ranger/Vanguard Alphas, the rules say that they can take weapons from the armory. However, it does not say that they replace their standard weapons if they do so - their graviton rifle/rad carbine, respectively. Do they keep their standard weapon as well?

In the Vanguard / Ranger entry (in the Codex, at least), it says 'replace'.

[CommodusXIII]

Damn, thank you!

[Vel'Cona]

Hmm, I wasn't sure about that, either.  Shame really, especially for the Caliver guys.

 

I'm actually leaning more toward Rangers as standard Troops, myself.  The Galvanic Rifle is probably the best standard infantry weapon in 40k, now (though Tau players will argue for the Pulse Rifle, Fire Warriors aren't BS4).  Precision Shots is a nice bonus, but the real benefits here are the 15" range double tap and AP4, which will mess up Aspect Warriors/Tau Infantry/Scouts/etc.  Vanguard are certainly not bad, as you save a decent amount of points on them and the Rad Saturation rule has good synergy with Sicarians/Dragoons.  I'd say it's a matter of what special weapons you need, as the Caliver is really better matched with Vanguard and the Transuranic Arquebus (I love saying that) meets up better with Rangers.  Either unit can use Arc Rifles (and at least 1 should!).

[Kilofix]

So what are thoughts on how to equip the Alphas?

 

Just Tazer? Maybe Phosphor also for Vanguard? To keep costs down.

 

What about Conversion? Will it really make a difference for just 1 model?

[Tiger9gamer]

I think conversion on warlord only. other than that I think arc pistol and a power sword would be good on other primes. maybe just the arc pistol... gotta have that haywire!