WWGO - HH news (update: Tempest leaks - page 26!)

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

 

I just get bored of painting the same skin tone, so instead, I experiment with different tones for every model. Adds character to your army, and frankly, it makes sense in my case considering the IV scoops up recruits from anywhere they can.

It would make sense for a few other legions too that perform +/- the same recruitment methods such as: World Eaters, Imperial Fists, Ultramarines (mostly due to recruitment pool), etc.

 

 

Plus, even if a Legion primarily recruits from one world, a planet is home to such a massive range of different habitats that the potential range of expressed phenotypes is colossal - considering the huge diversity which exists within the human race on this single planet, imagine the spectrum of appearances which could develop across a Galaxy's worth of inhabited planets

[Hyaenidae]

Not to mention the old Terran Legionnaires, who were often recruited from across the planet. 

[GhostMalone]

 

 

Pretty much my favourite rendition of Roboute, I however will give him the salt and pepper treatment for his hair

[Kol Saresk]

And see it's fitting because Guilliman wears twin power fists.....

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

 

 

 

Gulliman's statline is good I'd say, as in it's the Primarch average across the board whilst his weapons are on a par with pretty much all the other Primarchs (as in the Talon) is still the best but he's not exactly swinging with sticks. He's not the combat monster that Horus/Angron/Curze are or a tank like Vulkan/Ferrus/Mortarion but as a buffer he's supreme with an army wide leadership bump, successful sieze's have to be rerolled and he can tailor specific squads/squadrons incredibly well which fits into his character. I honestly don't know why some people were expecting him to be an absolute boss in hand to hand when that's never been his thing, of course he'll chew through bolter marines, because he's a Primarch. Against others? Lorgar almost got killed by a Contemptor and Gulliman himself almost got taken down by numbers so he's both effective and fluffy imo

 

In my cursory estimation, Horus and Angron will likely beat Guilliman. Fulgrim, Curze and Corax are too close for me to call without calculating it. He will probably come out on top against Mortarion, Ferrus Manus, Vulkan, Lorgar, Perturabo, Alpharius and Dorn.

 

I may have over- or underestimated a stat or a rule here and there. And generally it seems pretty close. Everyone has either a 4+ or 3+ invulnerable save and some powerful weapon. Guilliman has an interesting WS mechanic, two good weapons, a save worse than 3+ but slightly better than 4+, which make him very capable, even though his toughness, wounds, initiative and attacks are average.

Horus and Angron would definitely beat him whilst I'd strongly lean towards Curze due to the higher initiative and the fact he can hit and run to prevent Gulliman stacking up on WS the longer the fight goes on. Fulgrim/Corax/Alpharius are reasonably close together whilst Lorgar isn't great (unless he's rocking his psychic boosted version and he's loaded up on blessings) and the others are more tank-like so whilst they'd do a fine job of soaking up the damage how much they'd inflict in return is in the lap of the dice gods.

 

But yeah I wouldn't expect Gulliman to be trampling through most of the Primarchs who've got rules already let alone the few we're still waiting on who are all going to be extremely potent

I've only examined Alpharius' chances in any detail, but Guilliman stomps him pretty reliably. This is partly due to Alpharius having costly rules like armourbane and instant death that get him nowhere in a primarch duel, but also because Guilliman's equipment is fantastic. S7 AP2 shred vastly outshines S6 AP2 preferred enemy. The clincher is Guilliman's armour though. The secret of primarch duels once you've math-hammered enough of them is that they're mostly boring stalemates that see roughly one unsaved wound each per assault phase, with one side scraping ahead statistically after several game turns. This is no less true here, with both primarchs doing very close to one wound on average per phase after invulnerable saves. The difference here is that Guilliman's armour gives him another 4+ roll on the first wound he takes, which in most cases will be the only wound that got through. This is enough to put pretty clear water between the two, the major caveat being that you'd still have to get into combat very early in the game to have a reasonable chance of seeing any outcome. Once you get to turn 3/4, you can start to get pretty confident that any primarch duel will last longer than the game, outside of the top tier duellists. In fact, even the likes of Sigismund can pretty reliably tie up most primarchs for the last few turns of a game.

According to my calculations, Guilliman defeats Lorgar (normal), Dorn, Alpharius, and Perturabo w/o Forgebreaker. He's roughly even against Ferrus, Mortarion, Vulkan, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker. But, he consistently gets beat by Horus, Angron, Curze, Fulgrim w/ Fireblade, Corax, and Lorgar w/ Invisibility. He's in the dead Middle of the primarchs. Interestingly enough, while the 1st book legions tend to be snubbed, the 1st book primarchs tend to be the best or near the top.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

 

Not impressed with Sigismund at all. Very disappointing. He's not :cuss bald. He's described as having hair, every :cuss time he's described.

Think about how he'll actually look when people start painting him, though. Pretty much everyone will give him a helmet, and he'll start looking like one of the coolest models ever made.

I'm definitely sticking a helmet on him, no offense to Forge World. Keep that head for a squad leader or somesuch.

TBH it looks identical to the UM upgrade bare helmeted head.

I was imagining him with a more Turkish ancestry with a possible mustache. Kinda like Ali Karim Bey from James Bond FRWL (though I stole his name for a DA Legion terminator sgt :D)

He's from Ionia, not Turkey, he's got blond hair for christs sakes. Also, it wouldn't take much for the Turks to be driven off Anatolia during the years in between now and 30K. All of Central Asia is filled with Turkic people, so the Raven Guard are more likely to be Turkic than Sigismund since they are all from the Xeric tribes. Also. Bey is an Ottoman title that hasn't survived into 2015, so you definitely won't come across it in 30K. Pasha maybe, but not Bey.

 

Sigismund is just a complete failure of a model. He should have an ankle, not knee length tabard. He should have hair or a helmet. He should not be posed like some bull :cuss ninja, He's the personification of Western martial arts. Posing him in an oriental fighting style is insulting and detracts from his character, sure a space marine would know any martial art we know these days, but Sogismund is a god :cuss Knight, not a :cuss samurai or ninja. It's repulsive that some sculptors secret fetish for Asian fighting styles influenced the model for the character who best characterizes all of the history of Western fighting styles,

[Son of Carnelian]

 

 

 

 

 

I was imagining him with a more Turkish ancestry with a possible mustache. Kinda like Ali Karim Bey from James Bond FRWL

 

Why on earth would you imagine a character called "Sigismund" who led an army styled after the teutonic knights to be of turkish ethnicity?

Becuase he's a giant post-human from space, and it'd be pretty much impossible to predict how different ethnic groups would change & disperse across the entire Galaxy?

 

Also: bored of innumerable caucasian guys?

i don't know ... for me he always looked like a Space Marine version of Viggo Mortensen oO

Same! Just with cropped hair rather than the long flowing locks. I even looked on EBay for an Aragorn head to convert Sigismund with, but nothing doing.

 

I'll probably wind up purchasing him, but I remain disappointed. Maybe I just built him up too much in my head.

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

 

Not impressed with Sigismund at all. Very disappointing. He's not :cuss bald. He's described as having hair, every :cuss time he's described.

Think about how he'll actually look when people start painting him, though. Pretty much everyone will give him a helmet, and he'll start looking like one of the coolest models ever made.

I'm definitely sticking a helmet on him, no offense to Forge World. Keep that head for a squad leader or somesuch.

TBH it looks identical to the UM upgrade bare helmeted head.

I was imagining him with a more Turkish ancestry with a possible mustache. Kinda like Ali Karim Bey from James Bond FRWL (though I stole his name for a DA Legion terminator sgt :D)

He's from Ionia, not Turkey, he's got blond hair for christs sakes. Also, it wouldn't take much for the Turks to be driven off Anatolia during the years in between now and 30K. All of Central Asia is filled with Turkic people, so the Raven Guard are more likely to be Turkic than Sigismund since they are all from the Xeric tribes. Also. Bey is an Ottoman title that hasn't survived into 2015, so you definitely won't come across it in 30K. Pasha maybe, but not Bey.

Sigismund is just a complete failure of a model. He should have an ankle, not knee length tabard. He should have hair or a helmet. He should not be posed like some bull :cuss ninja, He's the personification of Western martial arts. Posing him in an oriental fighting style is insulting and detracts from his character, sure a space marine would know any martial art we know these days, but Sogismund is a god :cuss Knight, not a :cuss samurai or ninja. It's repulsive that some sculptors secret fetish for Asian fighting styles influenced the model for the character who best characterizes all of the history of Western fighting styles,

Yeahhh katana fanatics are detracting, a European Longsword user of similar skill would likely wreck a katana user. Longsword users can fight a bit dirty with their pommels and cross guards.

 

If it were up to me though, he'd have one hand on the hilt and the other on the pommel as if he were about to attack. His posture and sword have 0 defense capability in that pose. Sword fighting is about anticipating strikes and delivering blows while guarding yourself, from what I've learned from watching professional Longsword competitors (yes it exists) there's really no such thing as a one hit kill on an armored and similarly armed opponent. Siggy looks like he's about to rapier thrust someone.

 

Ionian would be modern day Greece/old Macedonia no? Not saying that it can't change or won't change, but it wouldn't seem like Siggy being from that area would be Prussian/German. Blonde hair? Likely. Alexis Polux sounds a bit Greek as well...though on a different planet.

 

But hey, I am getting a bit off topic :)

 

Any chance of seeing releases of the previewed models this week? And why no seminars? I know it's not a weekender, but still, I would've expected something. When's the next event?

[Marshal Rohr]

Ionia was Greek Anatolia, like Troy, where the columns are from. Every time this topic comes up I'm reminded of the game of thrones episode where Jorah catches the Dothraki's blade on his armor and kills the mother :cuss. That's how Sigismund fights. He uses every piece of his body, armor, sword, hands, head, etc. He's deaths champions :cuss. He is the weapon, not the piece of rock/metal in his hands.

[depthcharge12]

Ionia was Greek Anatolia, like Troy, where the columns are from. Every time this topic comes up I'm reminded of the game of thrones episode where Jorah catches the Dothraki's blade on his armor and kills the mother :cuss. That's how Sigismund fights. He uses every piece of his body, armor, sword, hands, head, etc. He's deaths champions :cuss. He is the weapon, not the piece of rock/metal in his hands.

To paraphrase the Hound:

 

"Little prickers don't win fights, plate armor and big ass swords do."

[Legatus]

Sigismund is just a complete failure of a model. He should have an ankle, not knee length tabard. He should have hair or a helmet. He should not be posed like some bull ninja, He's the personification of Western martial arts. Posing him in an oriental fighting style is insulting and detracts from his character, sure a space marine would know any martial art we know these days, but Sogismund is a god Knight, not a samurai or ninja. It's repulsive that some sculptors secret fetish for Asian fighting styles influenced the model for the character who best characterizes all of the history of Western fighting styles,

I am not all that familiar with european martial arts, but there are a few one handed sword techniques from fiore. Holding it with both hands (like the classic limited Emperor's Champion model) would perhaps have been the more obvious choice.

According to my calculations, Guilliman defeats Lorgar (normal), Dorn, Alpharius, and Perturabo w/o Forgebreaker. He's roughly even against Ferrus, Mortarion, Vulkan, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker. But, he consistently gets beat by Horus, Angron, Curze, Fulgrim w/ Fireblade, Corax, and Lorgar w/ Invisibility. He's in the dead Middle of the primarchs. Interestingly enough, while the 1st book legions tend to be snubbed, the 1st book primarchs tend to be the best or near the top.

In my calculations Guilliman is actually pretty even with Angron and Fulgrim. In each fight the opponent has a very strong first round, but then drops off at second or third round, from which point on Guilliman will deal more damage. Eventually they will kill each other about in the same turn. While both Angron and Fulgrim have a higher Initiative than Guilliman and could deal the killing blow first, switching Guilliman's attacks from his sword to his fist at 4th or 5th round could change that, and allow him to strike first in the projected "final" round.

Curze does not fare that well in my calculations, and not even dropping out and assaulting again would help him all that much, as Guilliman will deal very similar damage the turn Curze assaults him but will deal more damage from second round onwards. Maybe I am missing something?

Corax has to hope for a failed Initiative test from Guilliman to blind him. Otherwise he wont cut it. Again I might be missing some rule or some update.

I didn't know Fulgrim had gotten an update, so was quite surprised how utterly Guilliman demolishes "standard" Fulgrim. With the Fireblade he is much more dangerous, but mainly because of the first round.

Horus will consistently beat Guilliman, as long as he manages to wound him each round. If he has a bad first round and does not manage to wound Guilliman, his damage will be significantly lower from then on. If he fails to wound a second time, Guilliman will have the advantage.

I was seriously underestimating Guilliman's invulnerable save. When taking only 1 or 2 wounds per phase, a 4+ save with one re-roll is actually better than a 3+ save.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

Sigismund is just a complete failure of a model. He should have an ankle, not knee length tabard. He should have hair or a helmet. He should not be posed like some bull :cuss ninja, He's the personification of Western martial arts. Posing him in an oriental fighting style is insulting and detracts from his character, sure a space marine would know any martial art we know these days, but Sogismund is a god :cuss Knight, not a :cuss samurai or ninja. It's repulsive that some sculptors secret fetish for Asian fighting styles influenced the model for the character who best characterizes all of the history of Western fighting styles,

 

I am not all that familiar with european martial arts, but there are a few one handed sword techniques from fiore. Holding it with both hands (like the classic limited Emperor's Champion model) would perhaps have been the more obvious choice.

 

 

According to my calculations, Guilliman defeats Lorgar (normal), Dorn, Alpharius, and Perturabo w/o Forgebreaker. He's roughly even against Ferrus, Mortarion, Vulkan, and Perturabo w/ Forgebreaker. But, he consistently gets beat by Horus, Angron, Curze, Fulgrim w/ Fireblade, Corax, and Lorgar w/ Invisibility. He's in the dead Middle of the primarchs. Interestingly enough, while the 1st book legions tend to be snubbed, the 1st book primarchs tend to be the best or near the top.

 

In my calculations Guilliman is actually pretty even with Angron and Fulgrim. In each fight the opponent has a very strong first round, but then drops off at second or third round, from which point on Guilliman will deal more damage. Eventually they will kill each other about in the same turn. While both Angron and Fulgrim have a higher Initiative than Guilliman and could deal the killing blow first, switching Guilliman's attacks from his sword to his fist at 4th or 5th round could change that, and allow him to strike first in the projected "final" round.

Curze does not fare that well in my calculations, and not even dropping out and assaulting again would help him all that much, as Guilliman will deal very similar damage the turn Curze assaults him but will deal more damage from second round onwards. Maybe I am missing something?

Corax has to hope for a failed Initiative test from Guilliman to blind him. Otherwise he wont cut it. Again I might be missing some rule or some update.

I didn't know Fulgrim had gotten an update, so was quite surprised how utterly Guilliman demolishes "standard" Fulgrim. With the Fireblade he is much more dangerous, but mainly because of the first round.

 

Horus will consistently beat Guilliman, as long as he manages to wound him each round. If he has a bad first round and does not manage to wound Guilliman, his damage will be significantly lower from then on. If he fails to wound a second time, Guilliman will have the advantage.

 

I was seriously underestimating Guilliman's invulnerable save. When taking only 1 or 2 wounds per phase, a 4+ save with one re-roll is actually better than a 3+ save.

Well, Guilliman is only getting 1 reroll per game, so it's not that game breaking. And what I noticed about Angron is that he often does 2+ wounds in the 1st round with hatred, and then 1-2 rounds in the next round. By then he has such a lead on Guiliman that hitting on 4s instead of 3s isn't as big a deal. Against Fulgrim, Fulgrim has 2 attacks more than Guilliman and a better save and is hitting on 3s on the 1st round, which is how he killed him in my test runs. Against Curze and Corax, If they stay locked in the whole fight yes they lose but what makes Curze so dangerous is hat he can hit and run out, charge again getting 7 Attacks + D3 HOW attacks on top of a 3 shot shooting Attack that can ignore invuls. Against Guilliman this is especially crippling because his WS bonus resets after the challenge is over, so he will never hit on better than a 4 against Curze. Same with Corax

[Moonstalker]

 

Well, Guilliman is only getting 1 reroll per game, so it's not that game breaking.

 

 

It's one reroll per phase.  He gets 3 per turn.  Assuming he somehow manages to fail an invul during the movement phase.

[Flint13]

 

Well, Guilliman is only getting 1 reroll per game, so it's not that game breaking.

 

 

It's one reroll per phase.  He gets 3 per turn.  Assuming he somehow manages to fail an invul during the movement phase.

Would that possibly be 4 if he takes wounds from a witchfire power or some such?

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

Well, Guilliman is only getting 1 reroll per game, so it's not that game breaking.

 

 

It's one reroll per phase.  He gets 3 per turn.  Assuming he somehow manages to fail an invul during the movement phase.

It says phase of the game, not phase of the turn.

[blackoption]

 

 

Well, Guilliman is only getting 1 reroll per game, so it's not that game breaking.

 

It's one reroll per phase.  He gets 3 per turn.  Assuming he somehow manages to fail an invul during the movement phase.

It says phase of the game, not phase of the turn.

 

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on one this Magnus.  The game is subdivided into turns.  The turns are subdivided into phases.  The rule says "in each phase of the game." not just a phase of the game.  As such: there are 8 phases per turn (4 per side). 

[Ranwulf]

One of the things that always surprised me is that people think they can automatically apply real life swordsmanship to the 30K universe. There are so many considerations, so many different things that would change everything in combat. Like the fact that power weapons cut through regular power armor, or that there are such things like power fields, or that people fight with pistols in CC, even the way the helmets are designed make CC different, or that Space Marines have a power source for their armor.

 

So to be honest, the position that Sigismund is doing there looks pretty fine to me. It's cool, and more importantly it looks like he is part of a modular piece like Fulgrim and Ferrus Manus, I mean, he seems to be ready to thrust a specific enemy. Now...who that would be.

 

Ran

[Tyrannicide]

Probably thunder thighs Khârn. He'd go together lovely in a duel scene against ninja lord Sigismund.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

 

 

 

Well, Guilliman is only getting 1 reroll per game, so it's not that game breaking.

 

 

It's one reroll per phase.  He gets 3 per turn.  Assuming he somehow manages to fail an invul during the movement phase.

It says phase of the game, not phase of the turn.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on one this Magnus.  The game is subdivided into turns.  The turns are subdivided into phases.  The rule says "in each phase of the game." not just a phase of the game.  As such: there are 8 phases per turn (4 per side).

When it says each I believe it is referring to each as in Movement, psychic, shooting, and assault phase.

[blackoption]

Which is what I am saying as well.  But in this case,  Guilliman would be able to re-roll a single failed invul save in the psychic, shooting, and assault phase per turn.  As such, he could potentially get 3 re-rolls per side's turn (I cannot think of an instance where an invul save would be called upon during the movement phase).

[Dom_]

Which is what I am saying as well. But in this case, Guilliman would be able to re-roll a single failed invul save in the psychic, shooting, and assault phase per turn. As such, he could potentially get 3 re-rolls per side's turn (I cannot think of an instance where an invul save would be called upon during the movement phase).

I'm not sure it could happen in 30k, but if he was in a flier that was subject to an enemy vector strike which resulted in his flier crashing and burning. That's a S10 AP2 hit on him.

 

In fact a vector strike in general as they are all ap2.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

Which is what I am saying as well. But in this case, Guilliman would be able to re-roll a single failed invul save in the psychic, shooting, and assault phase per turn. As such, he could potentially get 3 re-rolls per side's turn (I cannot think of an instance where an invul save would be called upon during the movement phase).

I meant that he rerolled the 1st failed save in each phase per game. If it said just '1st failed save of each particular phase' I'd agree with you, but it specifies 1st failed save of each particular phase of the game.

[CommodusXIII]

I get why people aren't thrilled by Sigismund's pose. However, when I see it, all I can picture is this scene from Gladiator. Sorry for the terrible screenshot quality, it was the only one I could find!

 

So in my mind, he's not yielding ground - he's a split-second away from stabbing someone in the mouth.

[DuskRaider]

Are you people seriously trying to justify Guilliman getting potentially 4 rerolls per turn? Seriously?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Are you people seriously trying to justify Guilliman getting potentially 4 rerolls per turn? Seriously?

 

And in the same breath, dismiss any opinion of negativity towards the Ultramarines.

 

WLK