Fire Golem Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I really don't think there's legion creep. The first ones are a little weaker but they were finding their feet then really. Since then they've seemed reasonably balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lokkorex Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Flint13: my dear sister, who's to say it was Guilliman that struck down Alpharius? (Casting evil, conspiratorial glances about him) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I think the thread needs to cool it a bit  Unless you have a copy of Tempest, it's pointless speculating about how OP you think the Ultramarines Legion might be.  Also, until we see the fluff of the Fulmentarus Terminators in combination with their full rules, saying that becuase they have an option to take the same weapon as another Legion's unique terminator unit doesn't mean they're a copy. Breachers and tactical marines aren't the same just because they both have boltguns.  Plus what stops Medusan Immortals being 'super breachers' and Dark Furies from being 'super assault marines'?  hating a Legion's supposed rules based on assumptions isn't very balanced - just chill until we actually know 100% of their stats, and then judge away Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015   As it stands now, they look like a more noble version of the Alpha Legion that takes whatever it likes and improves upon it.  Becouse of one unit?   Stats on par with Angron  His statistics are nowhere near Angron's.  Not because of one unit, they got super breachers, super assault marines, and stole the tyrant siege terminators. Like I said, prove me wrong, post up all their rules and prove that they won't frog-stomp other legions with their tactical buffs. Also while Angron's statline is better in the attack, strength, and weapon skill department. He also has one less wound, only a 3+ armor save, and 4++ invul, while Guilliman, has a 2+/4++ with the first failed invul of each phase being re-rollable, his gun is AP and wounds Angron on 4's, and his sword is wounding Angron on 3's with re-rolled wounds at AP2. If anything I will say that balances out and even tips the scales in Guillimans favor, and thats without the fact that he buffs his own legion quite well.   I don't know man, I think you're overreacting a little. The breachers aren't breachers, they're their Legion's elite, more comparable to Firedrakes than Phalanx Warders or Immortals. They just happen to have shields. That said, I'm also pretty sure Firedrakes would wreck them due to a great invuln and ID despite the Suzerain striking first. They'll decimate regular terminators though. The assault squad seems only ok, it doesn't seem like it's particularly better than equivalents like WB Ashen Circle and such. And the "Tyrant Siege Terminators?" I can't say for sure but it sounds like they replace their combi-bolters to be able to get cyclone launchers? And cost more than the Tyrants, for less firepower, although they get the targeter bonuses which sounds cool. Can't say on a duel with Angron, I would hope he wouldn't be alone in the open to get shot so easily though. And it would take two extremely dangerous Challenge phases to get on par with Angron's WS, while dealing with 3 less attacks (depends on if you interpret Gorefather/Gorechild as two weapons or one though). It would be an interesting mathhammer that's for sure. Angron's lack of buffs for his Legion does hurt though.  I'll definitely be reserving final judgment until I get my hands on the book. It feels like it's too soon to be worrying over much. Those who have the book have said the UMs feel pretty balanced and I'm inclined to believe them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Heinrich Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 indeed, I don't mean to sound hot-headed and over-reactionary. I'll be the first to back down and be stoked for the Ultramarines after I look through the fluff/rules myself. All I'm working off is initial impressions and the frustration of having detailed breakdowns of human rabble mobs, but half-whispers and off-hand comments about the main legion in this book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Â and Dark Furies from being 'super assault marines'? Â Â Â Their lower WS, weapons, and stat line when compared to most legion's dedicated assault units. (everytime I look at the Templars and Gal Vorbak I see how not worth 30pts the Dark Furies are) Â WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 If, by the time I get my book noone has gone in depth into whats inside, I might as well do it; though it'll probably take a week or two to get here. Â Â and Dark Furies from being 'super assault marines'? Â Â Â Their lower WS, weapons, and stat line when compared to most legion's dedicated assault units. (everytime I look at the Templars and Gal Vorbak I see how not worth 30pts the Dark Furies are) Â WLK Â Nusquam and a few others who usually partake in the RG Tactica Thread would disagree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Pole Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Btw. I am missing some practical justification/historical context, or is the idea of "gladius slots" on Suzerain shields, absolutely :cussing stupid and bonkers?Why the hell would You keep Your sword on the front of the shield, if the gladius can be comfortably strapped to the belt at the hip, easily within reach at a moment's notice?Why would You force Yourself to reach with Your hand to the front of the shield, which would not only take longer than pulling a blade from a hip scabbard, but would also put You in a position where the enemy could easily chop Your hand off (not to mention - grab the damned sword himself)?I really hope those are purely ceremonial, or just act as nothing more than famboyant shield ornamentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Btw. I am missing some practical justification/historical context, or is the idea of "gladius slots" on Suzerain shields, absolutely :cussing stupid and bonkers? Â Why the hell would You keep Your sword on the front of the shield, if the gladius can be comfortably strapped to the belt at the hip, easily within reach at a moment's notice? Â Why would You force Yourself to reach with Your hand to the front of the shield, which would not only take longer than pulling a blade from a hip scabbard, but would also put You in a position where the enemy could easily chop Your hand off (not to mention - grab the damned sword himself)? Â I really hope those are purely ceremonial, or just act as nothing more than famboyant shield ornamentation. Â Â Probably ceremonial since apparently their Axes strike at Initiative @_@ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Btw. I am missing some practical justification/historical context, or is the idea of "gladius slots" on Suzerain shields, absolutely :cussing stupid and bonkers? Why the hell would You keep Your sword on the front of the shield, if the gladius can be comfortably strapped to the belt at the hip, easily within reach at a moment's notice? Why would You force Yourself to reach with Your hand to the front of the shield, which would not only take longer than pulling a blade from a hip scabbard, but would also put You in a position where the enemy could easily chop Your hand off (not to mention - grab the damned sword himself)? I really hope those are purely ceremonial, or just act as nothing more than famboyant shield ornamentation. It's because UM breachers can take Power Swords instead of bolt pistols Again, since it keeps repeating over and over and over, they're not breachers, they're honour guard. Breachers are tame by comparison. They're better than a command squad, their weapons are certainly better and they buff units around them. Defo a step up from the humble boarding shield sloggers The other 2 are pretty decent, are they better than the other legion special units? IMO no. The Storm Squad don't do enough for me their points cost and using them as a Plasma Alpha Strike is a waste whilst the Fulmentari Terms rely heavily on numbers to increase their effectiveness beyond their equipment. I'd say Firedrakes and Lernaeans are still ahead in the Tac Dreadnaught stakes. Gulliman's statline is good I'd say, as in it's the Primarch average across the board whilst his weapons are on a par with pretty much all the other Primarchs (as in the Talon) is still the best but he's not exactly swinging with sticks. He's not the combat monster that Horus/Angron/Curze are or a tank like Vulkan/Ferrus/Mortarion but as a buffer he's supreme with an army wide leadership bump, successful sieze's have to be rerolled and he can tailor specific squads/squadrons incredibly well which fits into his character. I honestly don't know why some people were expecting him to be an absolute boss in hand to hand when that's never been his thing, of course he'll chew through bolter marines, because he's a Primarch. Against others? Lorgar almost got killed by a Contemptor and Gulliman himself almost got taken down by numbers so he's both effective and fluffy imo Now for Legion specific stuff They have shooting buffs against targets already hit by a friendly unit that shooting phase They can re-roll charges to any unit already engaged in combat with a friendly unit They have the closest thing to And They Shall Know No Fear in 30K - Fear and Regrouping is always done against LD 10 Special Weapon - Legatine Axe - S--User AP--2 To hits on 6 wound automatically so pretty good there RoW every turn all units in the detachment get one of: Re-roll running Stand still and snap shot at BS 2 Counter Attack They MUST: take a Master of Signal or a Damocles Rhino as an additional compulsory HQ choice extra compulsory troops choice take more infantry than tanks/flyers cannot infiltrate or deep strike so no drop pods As for Legion creep, I mean really? I fail to see how suddenly the Ultramarines are better than all who came before, or how any of the four Legions in extermination are better than those in Massacre. There's nothing here that I'd say is overpowered, just different. Are the characters better than Sigismund? No. Are their units OTT? Not at all.Like Alan said when I raised the point, you can't have any imbalance when all 18 Legions have access to the majority of the same heavy hitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Yeah, there's no way it isn't just decoration Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Pole Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I hope so. Its just that some of the reports from the event, specifically mentioned the "gladius slots" as if it was some functional feature of the Suzerains. Â It's because UM breachers can take Power Swords instead of bolt pistols Still, that's a rather less then ideal place to put them :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I thought they were just decoration. I adore those models. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I hope so. Its just that some of the reports from the event, specifically mentioned the "gladius slots" as if it was some functional feature of the Suzerains. I remember hearing about 'gladius slots' from the last event, and I pictured them as an actual slot in the shield for stabbing the sword through to get the enemies, like a letterbox almost haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Pole Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Apropo of that. I love the image of a phalanx of Astartes with Breacher shields in a tightly knit formation, stabbing at the enemy with their gladiuses (gladii?) in a disciplined, Roman way.I always hoped that Breacher squads as a unit, would get some sort of special rule reflecting their defensive formation, where it's not just about the additional protection provided by the shield, but also about the special, disciplined, closely formed formation where brother covers brother.When that didn't happen I was hoping for the IF's or the Ultras, to get something similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Remus Ventanus. Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Ok here is my little review of everything ultramarine related:  The portrait of Ventanus looks perfect. Just stunning. Cant wait for his model.  Guilliman looks great, by far my favourite primarch,  The suzerian looks AMAZING. Anyone know if we can swap the power axes for swords? The rules are also great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Apropo of that. I love the image of a phalanx of Astartes with Breacher shields in a tightly knit formation, stabbing at the enemy with their gladiuses (gladii?) in a disciplined, Roman way. Â I always hoped that Breacher squads as a unit, would get some sort of special rule reflecting their defensive formation, where it's not just about the additional protection provided by the shield, but also about the special, disciplined, closely formed formation where brother covers brother. Â When that didn't happen I was hoping for the IF's or the Ultras, to get something similar. Â Well the IF's rite of war does give units with boarding shields +1 toughness & hammer of wrath so long as they have unit coherency Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Apropo of that. I love the image of a phalanx of Astartes with Breacher shields in a tightly knit formation, stabbing at the enemy with their gladiuses (gladii?) in a disciplined, Roman way. Â I always hoped that Breacher squads as a unit, would get some sort of special rule reflecting their defensive formation, where it's not just about the additional protection provided by the shield, but also about the special, disciplined, closely formed formation where brother covers brother. Â When that didn't happen I was hoping for the IF's or the Ultras, to get something similar. IF technically got something like that Through Warders + the RoW. Â +1 Initiative to the Warders and anyone attached when charged along with standard Breacher buffs such as Defensive Grenades +1 Toughness for 5+ Models in the Squad equipped with shields due to the RoW (applies to Terminators with SS's too) Gain Hammer of Wrath if they charge while under Stone Gauntlet (same for SS Termies) Â Sadly, their only CCW options are Power Axes or Thunderhammers except for the Sarge. Yay +1 Initiative when Charged (this happens every time the unit gets charged, even when already engaged). Â /sigh I still love them though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Thanks Balthamal for the break down ! :) Â I do fail to see the power creep. If at all, the Ultramarines ROW is a bit underwhelming in my opinion (it seems extremely defensive), but their Legiones rules are cool but not particularly over powered. Sure, the bro team action between units to get rerolls is nice anf fluffy but it can be relatively countered on the tabletop, so you have to set it up quite smoothly throughout the battle ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkimaskMohawk Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Ok here is my little review of everything ultramarine related:  The portrait of Ventanus looks perfect. Just stunning. Cant wait for his model.  Guilliman looks great, by far my favourite primarch,  The suzerian looks AMAZING. Anyone know if we can swap the power axes for swords? The rules are also great.  As previous rumors have stated: axes swing at initiative so it wont matter beyind getting worse AP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totem Pole Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Â Â Well the IF's rite of war does give units with boarding shields +1 toughness & hammer of wrath so long as they have unit coherency Ha. I completely spaced out on this. For some reason, I though their ROW worked differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Warlord Weaponry from over on dakkadakka: http://www.dakkadakka.com/s/i/at/at2/2015/5/17/582c04c5415a297654acf82e7a4a6450_9675.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015  Ok here is my little review of everything ultramarine related:  The portrait of Ventanus looks perfect. Just stunning. Cant wait for his model.  Guilliman looks great, by far my favourite primarch,  The suzerian looks AMAZING. Anyone know if we can swap the power axes for swords? The rules are also great.  As previous rumors have stated: axes swing at initiative so it wont matter beyind getting worse AP I've never really understood why power axes are initiative 1. I get that they're a slower weapon but are they that slow that you immediately hit last? Wouldn't an initiative penalty make more sense? (Like -2/3 to your initiative).  Not really anything to do with anything, just never got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olis Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I've never really understood why power axes are initiative 1. I get that they're a slower weapon but are they that slow that you immediately hit last? Wouldn't an initiative penalty make more sense? (Like -2/3 to your initiative). Not really anything to do with anything, just never got it.  Same here. I wanted to see a penalty rather than a reduction to initiative step 1. That bit confused me when the rules were changed for power weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1ncarnadine Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Not very stoked about the Warhound/Reaver weaponry. Was really hoping they'd buff the Vulcan Megabolter, Inferno Cannon and Reaver Volcano Cannon. As it stands, the Vulcan and Inferno Cannon are pretty much only barely better or on par with the equivalent Knight weapons... and it feels like there is so very little reason to take a single 7" D blast vs 3 5" D blasts? Whoopdeedoo, double range, you already shoot 8'. Â Another oddity seems to be the Plasma Blastgun listed with a 9" blast vs 10" on the overload shot? Â Very cool Warlord weaponry though, pretty stoked on that and eagerly awaiting some awesome Warlord parts in the future. That Saturnyne Lascutter... mmmmm Instant Death AP2 Hellstorm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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