[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[GreyCrow]

I even found that Using Polux on the table. That he looked a little 'out of it' so to speak.

 

So I am nervous using a mighty statesmen such as Guilliman and next to such heroically awesome models like Suzerains!

 

Yeah, I totally get what you mean about Pollux, he's got a similar vide (although his pose is a tad more dynamic than Guilliman, which is cool) ! I think it's the chin up and eyes up pose of the head, while Sigismund has the chin down and looks much more battle ready and focused on what's happening around rather than thinking about his grocery list or how to redecorate Hera's Palace.

 

 

Yeah you can tilt his head any way you want and maybe change the sword arm direction...

 

Remember Guilliman was the master of multitasking . Maybe he fights without looking at his adversary? :-P

 

Okay, that's great news ! All I needed to hear.

 

Yeah, maybe I should model shades on him and write "Deal with It" on the marble plinth :p

[Frostmourne]

On the note of Sigismund I'm sorely tempted to carve him up as I did to Polux and make him a Praetor level character. But we'll see.

 

Okay so let's get back on topic, and here's a little challenge.

 

You're making a rounded and balanced (Which is what Ultramarines should be I guess) list, what are your 3 staple units. Using the logos or not.

[GreyCrow]

On the note of Sigismund I'm sorely tempted to carve him up as I did to Polux and make him a Praetor level character. But we'll see.

 

Okay so let's get back on topic, and here's a little challenge.

 

You're making a rounded and balanced (Which is what Ultramarines should be I guess) list, what are your 3 staple units. Using the logos or not.

 

Tactical Squads, Rhinos for sure ! Maybe Cataphractii Terminators in Land Raiders to add more damage to the list in melee, but only if there is some proper shooty support.

[Ishagu]

On the note of Sigismund I'm sorely tempted to carve him up as I did to Polux and make him a Praetor level character. But we'll see.

 

Okay so let's get back on topic, and here's a little challenge.

 

You're making a rounded and balanced (Which is what Ultramarines should be I guess) list, what are your 3 staple units. Using the logos or not.

Ultramarines don't have to be well rounded. They can excell in everything.

 

Easily one of the best Legions for Assault, for mobility, and if we make use of Guilliman's buffs also shooting and what not.

[Frostmourne]

It's funny I love being able to have a couple of decent assault units in my list without going full melee but I never think of the UM being super melee orientated. But with Suzerains and Locurarus I'm sure we can

[Hesh Kadesh]

One of the best is pushing it. The resources to sink into a unit which aside from a couple of specifically tooled units is like saying that Night Lords can be shooty because of Preferred Enemy Terror Squads and Heavy Support Squads.

 

Ultramarines assault capability is down to a non-bulky "terminator" unit with access to defensive grenades and I4 AP2 and a Jump Pack squad with Power swords and Artificer Armour. Locutarus share the same slot as the Dreadclaws that make the first unit as good as they can be without the 270+ pt Assault Transport other armies require, and with only power swords and max 3 plasma pistols are relegated to MEQ chewing. 

 

That's a lot of points, and a lot of investment to make capable units out of what Night Lords, World Eaters and other close combat legions call specialists, while any other legion can run a Furious Charge veteran squad or Assault Squad and do similar damage to a Locutarus.

[GreyCrow]

One of the best is pushing it. The resources to sink into a unit which aside from a couple of specifically tooled units is like saying that Night Lords can be shooty because of Preferred Enemy Terror Squads and Heavy Support Squads.

 

Ultramarines assault capability is down to a non-bulky "terminator" unit with access to defensive grenades and I4 AP2 and a Jump Pack squad with Power swords and Artificer Armour. Locutarus share the same slot as the Dreadclaws that make the first unit as good as they can be without the 270+ pt Assault Transport other armies require, and with only power swords and max 3 plasma pistols are relegated to MEQ chewing. 

 

That's a lot of points, and a lot of investment to make capable units out of what Night Lords, World Eaters and other close combat legions call specialists, while any other legion can run a Furious Charge veteran squad or Assault Squad and do similar damage to a Locutarus.

 

I think we need to lookt at it from a combined arms perspective and ganging up multiple units with Interlocking Tactics. Playing Raven Guard in 40k with rerollable charge ranges, rerolling charge range might not seem remarkable at first, but it's actually the best way to ensure melee capable units will actually do melee.

I'm not talking only about making 8" or 9" charges, but I'm also talking about ensuring your 6" charge when you've rolled snake eyes or a total of 4.

 

Now, throw in a fast moving unit in melee like Outriders that have sufficient mobility to be 1" of the enemy because they'll have turbo boosted before, or throw in Contemptors with Fleet to soak up the overwatch, and now enjoy the rerolls to charge on Power Fist Terminators. Like you said, melee units are already beasty (otherwise it's suicide or gambling) and one very solid way to improve their performance is to ensure that they actually reach combat especially with random charges. So, while the Ultramarines aren't about adding more damage to the fight like Sons or World Eaters, they have their own way of making sure the melee happens which is pretty cool too !

Never underestimate rerolling charge ranges :p

[Ishagu]

This is slightly off topic, but I'd like to share a sneak peek at my HH Ultras :-D

(I didn't feel one image deserves a topic lol)

 

 

Edited December 8, 2015 by Ishagu

[Ishagu]

Speaking purely objectively, the Legion rules don't particularly favour assault but there's no denying that the Invectarus Suzerains are a pretty great cc unit when compared to other Legion exclusives, and the Locutarus are probably the best assault Marine variant available in the HH (although still not a top tier unit)

 

Let's not forget that the Suzerains and Terminators can be unlocked as troops.

[Caillum]

Locutarus are probably even with Night Raptors and Dark Furies. Artificer armour makes them tougher, but the other 2 are more killy.

[Ishagu]

Yeah I'd agree with that.

Night Raptors can always join Curze to become Shrouded, however - so that's a unit I've always been interested in if I'd played Night Lords.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Night Raptors are pretty sweet - but really? Despite Locutarus doing better in a larger squad (2+ Save is sweet). 

 

Night Raptors equipped with Swords have +D3 Charge and WS5, with potential +1 to wound and Initiative 5, (as well as Power Axes). 200pts for that. Locutarus bring 2+ Saves, reroll scatter, and 2 Shot Pistols. 2 Shot pistols can be ignored, but any kills that it nets is pretty handy, and actually makes Deep Striking something you want to do, especially when you reroll 1's to wound. I wouldn't bother to give it a Plasma Pistol, though.

 

Locutarus are quite an underated unit, and maligned competitively - not altogether without reason, but I've yet to meet a marine player who doesn't run Terminators only who thinks 2+ Save Power Sword Jump Packs in their lines.

 

Night Raptors are a bargain. 190pts for 6 with a pair of Chainglaives or power weapons (or mix) gives you a lot of attacks; against a 10 model unit, you've got 6 I10 S4 HoW autohits, 2d3+2 I5 WS5 (no need for a fear character babysitter) S5 AP3 Rending attacks with a +1 to wound, and 4d3+8 S4 +1 to wound AP- attacks.

 

That same costs nets you 16 WS4 S4 Power Weapon attacks from a Locutarus squad which may not be charging until Turn 3 if you Deep Strike.

 

If you don't mind losing out on I5, you could drop the Terror Assault and pick up Hit and Run Angel's Descent, using Fire Raptors, and Lord of War flyers like Vendetta's, Avenger's etc.

 

That said, I'll take this to the NL topic to continue rather than UM ;).

[Slips]

Night Raptors are pretty sweet - but really? Despite Locutarus doing better in a larger squad (2+ Save is sweet). 

 

Night Raptors equipped with Swords have +D3 Charge and WS5, with potential +1 to wound and Initiative 5, (as well as Power Axes). 200pts for that. Locutarus bring 2+ Saves, reroll scatter, and 2 Shot Pistols. 2 Shot pistols can be ignored, but any kills that it nets is pretty handy, and actually makes Deep Striking something you want to do, especially when you reroll 1's to wound. I wouldn't bother to give it a Plasma Pistol, though.

 

Locutarus are quite an underated unit, and maligned competitively - not altogether without reason, but I've yet to meet a marine player who doesn't run Terminators only who thinks 2+ Save Power Sword Jump Packs in their lines.

 

Night Raptors are a bargain. 190pts for 6 with a pair of Chainglaives or power weapons (or mix) gives you a lot of attacks; against a 10 model unit, you've got 6 I10 S4 HoW autohits, 2d3+2 I5 WS5 (no need for a fear character babysitter) S5 AP3 Rending attacks with a +1 to wound, and 4d3+8 S4 +1 to wound AP- attacks.

 

That same costs nets you 16 WS4 S4 Power Weapon attacks from a Locutarus squad which may not be charging until Turn 3 if you Deep Strike.

 

If you don't mind losing out on I5, you could drop the Terror Assault and pick up Hit and Run Angel's Descent, using Fire Raptors, and Lord of War flyers like Vendetta's, Avenger's etc.

 

That said, I'll take this to the NL topic to continue rather than UM .

Aye, it might be best to continue that line of thought in the NL Thread :P Especially since Curze has Hit & Run so you dont necessarily need Angels Wrath.

 

As is, if the Locutarus could take Combat Shields (discounting the Sarge) they'd be that much better for it. Being 2+/5++ In CC (and a 6++ vs Shooting as a Last-Ditch) makes them that much more resilient which they need due to their lower Damage Output or Body Count compared to Dark Furies (who, for a steep price, can all be Given Ravens Talons for Shred + Rending + MC) or Night Raptors (who drown you in attacks).

 

That said, since their main target is MEQ or Weaker, Taking 3 Hand Flamers in a unit wouldn't be that bad of an idea since you can shoot 6 Flamer Templates on the Drop and, if they get charged when dropped in, thats 3D3 Auto-Hit Overwatch Shots which, while unlikely, might cause a Charge to fail.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Apologies, to finish off that point - I wouldn't run Curze in the unit. He loses his T6. Run him with a JP Librarian (Pyromancy for Fire Shield = 2+ Cover Save, or Telekinesis for pretty much everything), and running 10+ Men is so damn expensive it's like painting a Medusa target on your noggin. 

 

3 Hand Flamers for 6 shots is begging quite a lot, even if you can trigger it with a Rhino's 2-4 Bolter Shots or what have you, and at 315pts... I'm not sure, but it's not bad, and gives them some utility, but I wouldn't make it the point of taking them - especially as they'd be the first ones dead to interceptor if that's a thing.

[Slips]

Thats the main issue.

 

And if you want to up their Survival while still letting them deepstrike that usually means a VSH Character which ups the cost further. So not ideal.

 

(TRULY A FINAL ASIDE ON THE NIGHT LORDS BIT: Slap Curze onto the unit only prior to a charge if possible that way they present two targets but on the way in are H&R capable)

[Frostmourne]

Ishagu they are some solid looking marines! Nice blue. How did you get it?

[Ishagu]

Thats the main issue.

 

And if you want to up their Survival while still letting them deepstrike that usually means a VSH Character which ups the cost further. So not ideal.

 

(TRULY A FINAL ASIDE ON THE NIGHT LORDS BIT: Slap Curze onto the unit only prior to a charge if possible that way they present two targets but on the way in are H&R capable)

The biggest downside to Locutarus is that generally their optimal target for a deepstrike assault (Marines blob) would be very likely to be equipped with Interceptor capability, and even if not would likely hit you with fury of the Legion after you arrive.

 

It's probably best to ignore any pistol upgrades and just start them on the board?

 

**The Ultras are basecoated using Ultramarine blue from Army painter.

Edited December 9, 2015 by Ishagu

[helterskelter]

Hesh has over cooked the raptors a bit. You only get I5 if you charge in the dark. So you have to play terror to get that. And have to get in by t1 or t2 (hoping you have made that 4+) the rest still stands. Though why you would only take 6 because after overwatch you probably won't be outnumbering anyone unless your opponent had backed them with a void harness toting character. But yeah don't get in the way of a bigger squad. That will hurt whoever you are. (Sorry for the interjection chaps)(nice ultras ishagu)

[Frostmourne]

Ishahu, how did you find the spray went on? Obviously you manage quite well but Iv struggled with ones in the past.

 

What are people using as their main HQ's? And how many are you taking to avoid rigid chain of command? Or are you not?

[Charlo]

To jump on the Guilliman model discussion a page back - I thought his model was weird at first, but he is actually really sweet. I picked up Visions on a whim, the issue focusing on the Calth set and the featured Ultras army in there has a really cool Guilliman.

 

His rules are also incredible, if not slightly Spammy.

 

I usually hate Ultras but the 30k ones and papa Smurf really almost turn me onto them...

[GreyCrow]

To jump on the Guilliman model discussion a page back - I thought his model was weird at first, but he is actually really sweet. I picked up Visions on a whim, the issue focusing on the Calth set and the featured Ultras army in there has a really cool Guilliman.

 

His rules are also incredible, if not slightly Spammy.

 

I usually hate Ultras but the 30k ones and papa Smurf really almost turn me onto them...

 

To finish off the model discussion, when I get him I'll model like this (keeping the stock base though) :

 

 

Now, he both seem like a visionary general but also a competent fighter. He really seems in the game  By tilting the head on the left, it gives off a martial art foot stance.

Edited December 9, 2015 by GreyCrow

[Reyner]

I'm debating to not use the fancy base for mine - might magnetise his smaller base to have a load of rubble or something instead of the nice marble floors. Then I can swap between rubble base for games and nice marble for display or something.

[Ishagu]

The smaller base looks fine, imo. He can easily be placed on any base if you wanted to model him on some debris instead.

[Seahawk]

I'll be putting him on a "regular" base so that his height matches the rest of the army for scaling. Makes him more impressive!

[Frostmourne]

Ok guys been chatting to a friend about making lists around the 2-2.5k mark and am having some real problems with choices.

 

And having looked at some of the new lists from Judd and whomever I can more.

 

Is Guilliman at games above 2k pretty much an auto include? I still like using my Praetor but the ulitity from Guilliman is game changing.

 

Has anyone else tried Ventanus yet? Worked him out?

 

Master of signals with Damocles Rhino?

 

Telemachus? Used him?

 

Do people deep strike Locarastus? Or run them up?