[HH1.0] 30k Ultramarines tactics

[caladancid]

As I close in on finishing painting two units of Invictarus (finally!), I am wondering if anyone has tried them in Dreadclaws? Obviously my preference is to use armored assaults, but I could see using them in variations of OA lists. Any luck with that?

 

In general it seems to me that UM play better with tanks than pods, with the exception of dropping in combi-melta Fulmentarus.

[Hesh Kadesh]

There should really be a general tactics thread, where the first question is 'Does it go in a Dreadclaw'?

 

The answer is 'is it meant to be in an assault? If so, yes. Only time it shouldn't be is if it doesn't fit, put it in a Kharybdis. If it doesn't fit in either, don't take it, or reduce in size until it does'.

 

The bonuses are there to make use of if you can. Not there to define how you play or build an army.

 

You are otherwise limited to Rhino's which cannot assault leaving their 2+/6++ selves at the mercy of lots of AP2 or better weapons, or spending 250%-350% of the Dreadclaw on a vehicle more susceptible to Grav (3 HP, 4+ Jink, vs 4/5HP) and may not get there.

[caladancid]

I think in general what you are saying is correct here, with room for nuance. I don't know what you mean by bonuses not defining an army? I think that bonuses/unique units are exactly why specific tactics threads are appropriate.

 

To the extent that your position is that the mobility of a dreadclaw makes up for the firepower of a LR, that is definitely a valid position. What has your experience been when you tried both?

[Ishagu]

Generally pods are a more competitive unit than Raiders for the means of delivery, particularly if you're in a meta that spams grav rapiers.

 

In my experience grav rapiers are rare. I have no interest in using the weapons myself as I find templates tedious, though I'm fully aware of how easily they deal with vehicles.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I think in general what you are saying is correct here, with room for nuance. I don't know what you mean by bonuses not defining an army? I think that bonuses/unique units are exactly why specific tactics threads are appropriate.

 

To the extent that your position is that the mobility of a dreadclaw makes up for the firepower of a LR, that is definitely a valid position. What has your experience been when you tried both?

You can make a fairly competitive list without hinging on Army specifics like Rites, LA bonuses, or Unique units.

 

People only took the units which do something for competitivity; hence no Rampagers, Justaerin, Immortals, Phalanx Warders, Headhunters, Lernaeans, Pyroclasts, etc.

 

Conversely, units which were among the best, Legion Dreadnoughts, Grav Rapiers, Medusa, Typhon, Lightning Primaris, Deredeo are all rather exclusive of a lot of those bonuses, and provided the solid core to build around.

 

The Fire Power of a Raider is nothing. It is a Heavy Bolter and 2 Lascannons. You can pick up a Predator which does similar for 115pts, brings more HP, splits enemies fire discipline, and can afford to sit out of range of enemy counter fire.

 

In a game which needs to account for the death of Spartans, Land Raiders are small fry, unless spamming them. The problem with Spamming them is that you're not going to have much more of an army. And even if you're spamming things, then getting a first turn pod with a 'guaranteed' second turn assault with an elite unit, that is not dependent on your opponents deployment, and possibly misses an enemy shooting phase is golden.

 

The Land Raider is archaicly priced for no reason whatsoever.

[Flint13]

Auxilia gets their AT from tanks. Vanquishers and so forth. I wouldn't call that efficient by any means.

Nah, that's just the most overt and anti-flare shield method.

 

I keep two in my list bc I love the models and it freaks out legion bros when their big expensive death taxi starts catching penetrating hits through thier flare shield from across the board on turn 1.

 

There are plenty of good alternatives that aren't vehicle mounted.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Flint13

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Auxilia gets their AT from tanks. Vanquishers and so forth. I wouldn't call that efficient by any means.

Nah, that's just the most overt and anti-flare shield method.

 

I keep two in my list bc I love the models and it freaks out legion bros when their big expensive death taxi starts catching penetrating hits through thier flare shield from across the board on turn 1.

 

There are plenty of good alternatives that aren't vehicle mounted.

 

 

That is probably why I will never own a Spartan :P

[ronin_cse]

So what would be a better option for filling up a spartan for CC killing: Guilliman and a bunch of Suzerins, Guilliman and a bunch of CC terminators, or something else I haven't considered?

[Frater Cornelius]

Suzerains are probably the best melee unit in the UM army. Big G, a possible Chaplain and Invictarii are probably standard by now, the only variance being how many you actually take and what transport you use.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Immersturm

[Ishagu]

Are you tied to a Spartan?

 

One of the great things about Guilliman and the Suzerains is the ability to transport them in a regular, cheaper Raider.

 

Of course, a big unit with Termies or extra including extra HQs like a Primus Medicae will still require the Spartan.

[ronin_cse]

Are you tied to a Spartan?

 

One of the great things about Guilliman and the Suzerains is the ability to transport them in a regular, cheaper Raider.

 

Of course, a big unit with Termies or extra including extra HQs like a Primus Medicae will still require the Spartan.

 

I haven't actually ordered the Spartan yet (30k army is still fledgling) but I just kind of thought they were a pretty big staple and that LRs weren't great in 30k since they die pretty fast.

 

So basically I'm not tied to the Spartan but I want to use one ;). Really I'm more curious about what is a better melee choice. Being able to use them with a LR is nice for the extra flexibility for smaller games where I can't fit a Spartan.

[Ishagu]

Well, a Landraider in 30k can take ceramite armour like a Spartan for melta immunity.

The big difference is the flare shield that basically makes a Spartan av15 from the front.

 

Imo, the Invectarus Suzerains are better than Termies due to ap2 at initiative, assault grenades, defensive grenades and being able to sweeping advance, but a squad of cataphractii is more survivable.

[caladancid]

I agree with most everyone else here, the Invictarus are the better option, for all the reasons Ishagu lists. Also they can be troops with Big G. I personally use LRs, but that is a different question.

[ronin_cse]

Thanks for the help! Another related question: is putting Guilliman in a squad like that the best use of the primarch? From reading various threads it sounds like most primarchs want to be in melee most of the time but I want to make sure.

[Frater Cornelius]

There is no such thing as a ranged Primarch (Mortarion is as close as you would get with his endless pie plates). Melee is their primary role. However, some bring more things in addition to their punching. Big G, for example, is a great force multiplier. But even then, he is best at punching other stuff.

[shandwen]

The big G wants to be tank hunting. His lack of attacks limit him against infantry, and he of course is very limited on the dakka side of things.

But that's not what you take him for. You take him for the bonuses. Invictus and legion termie troops. And the whole special rule thingy. He builds an army (and perhaps makes the Logos work).

[Ishagu]

Big G is effective if you can maximise his attack success. A Chaplain giving him re rolls to hit goes nicely with his Shredding Paragon Blade. That also buffs the Suzerains.

 

But yes, his army buffs are great. Defence from being seized, boosting the strength or utility of units and so on

[Flint13]

I think the issue with adding him into a squad with Suzerains and a Chaplain is that you've got an enormous amount of points in that unit now. 

 

Concentrating like that means they'd do amazing things if they made it to combat, but it minimizes the amount of targets that your opponent has to worry about. 

[Ishagu]

I would normally agree with that, but in a 2k list I've managed to include that unit in a Landraider alongside 2 Sicarans, a Deredeo, 2 Quad Mortars and Tacs in Rhinos.

[caladancid]

I really don't think you want Guilliman to be tank hunting. You wouldn't send him by himself, and what unit are you going to put him with that would excel at tank hunting?

 

-edit

 

Apparently I wrote this at the same time Ishagu responded. You don't give up having multiple threats by having Guilliman with Invictarus. My 2.5k list has two Raiders with two units of Invictarus (Guilliman is in one of them), two sicarans, and other things.

Edited March 19, 2016 by caladancid

[Flint13]

 

-edit

 

Apparently I wrote this at the same time Ishagu responded. You don't give up having multiple threats by having Guilliman with Invictarus. My 2.5k list has two Raiders with two units of Invictarus (Guilliman is in one of them), two sicarans, and other things.

 

You don't give up multiple threats, no. Ishagu's mini list two posts up and yours here illustrates that. You do give up the number of threats you could have had though.

 

At bare minimum, the raider carrying Gulliman and Suzerains is going to set you back what, 800-850 points? Even with very generous math, that is 30% of your entire army in one unit that can only put out two lascannons and a heavy bolter worth of damage until they make it combat. Less if you go full speed in an effort to make a turn 2 charge. That makes it a massive target priority to your opponent. And its going to be a priority before many of your own units become a threat. Having multiple units doesn't cause issues for your opponent. Having multiple units that are a legitimate and immediate threat is.  

 

Spartans aren't that hard to kill, standard raiders even less so. And if it doesn't do its job of delivering that unit to combat, you have more or less wasted the 800-ish points you've put into the unit  outside of Gulliman's general army-wide bonuses. 

[Frater Cornelius]

That is the problem with slow Primarchs like Big G. They are bound to an escort, which bloats the cost of a unit. Hence why Corax and Mortarion to some degree are my favourite Primarchs when it comes to rules. They are fast and can survive solo and do not need an overly expensive escort.

[Ishagu]

Lol, maybe if the Mastodon was a Primarch dedicated transport all these slow Primarchs would function better. Don't you think so, Flint? :-P

[Flint13]

As long as it stays 700pts, I'd let you throw all the mastodons you wanted into a list.

 

3 lascannon Vanquishers with a tank ace is 640pts.

[Ishagu]

Oh yeah, I wouldn't mess with the points.