Dark Angels rumors. update: Codex leaks, pg 28

[Hjarl]

Yeah that too

They REALLY missed the mark on that DW detatchment. Pure DW is such a popular theme/fluffy army, i feel gutted that they managed to ruin it. The points reductions are most welcome but still i cant play my army come saturday. Unbound isnt really a viable solution. Many places its banned AND most of the unique DW rules have been attatched to the broken (worst sense of the word) formation/detatchment, instead of directly to the DW units

Im so disheartened right now. Weeping for my fluff DW army that went from being crap on the table, to being unfieldable....

[lcannard]

Yeah, forces me to use another codex at events that don't allow Unbound.

[Master Sheol]

Yes! Vengeful strike is still in!

It's a special ability of the TDA now so all HQ with TDA get it Too!

 

There is no auto Lose with the DWSF!

Dreads in DP still come down on first turn!

It's only the DWRF that forces dreads to comebdown together with the termies! ;)

[Frater Cornelius]

Of all the things, I expexted DW to get a buff and RW to get adjustments. As it stands, RW are buffed and DW got kicked. GENIUS!

 

Neverthess, I enjoy this book because it puts emphasis on my favourite theme: Multi-wing. United we stand. Divided we fall.

[Hjarl]

Playing "hide the dread" in turn 1 is utterly crap design. Having 5+ ven dreads cant really be said to be anywhere near fluffy (a big selling point for many DW players)

[Varizel]

Nope... but putting 3 dreadnoughts on drop pods is pretty fine in terms of fluff yeah? they have to destroy 6 AV 12 units at that point on turn 1. 

[lcannard]

Nope... but putting 3 dreadnoughts on drop pods is pretty fine in terms of fluff yeah? they have to destroy 6 AV 12 units at that point on turn 1. 

 

You can only take Ven Dreads... And that doesn't help the formation, they still land turn 2.

[Varizel]

Huh where at? The formations yeah,.... and it is limited at one, but on detachment? just Elite slot good sir. I can put whatever dreadnought i want. But i do usually put 3 Venerable dreadnoughts though for fluff .

Edit: it is though in limitations, that you can only ever take 1 venerable dreadnought instead of multiple in one elite slot and had to come with drop pod and deathwing rule.... which normal Dreadnought do not have. I missed that part and i apologized for it. But still you can put Ven. Dreadnoughts, so it still good it seems? Still no auto lose on turn 1.

[lcannard]

Huh where at? The formations yeah,.... and it is limited at one, but on detachment? just Elite slot good sir. I can put whatever dreadnought i want. But i do usually put 3 Venerable dreadnoughts though for fluff .

Has to have the Deathwing rule in the detachment.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Now you just add 1 HE, 2 troops with grav that can take care of themselves, put the rest in terminators and whatnot and have a 90% pure DO army that is not only fluffy but can actually win games.

 

I have a DW army like many of you guys. Pure it would be nice but very hard to win with. With RD or GW it would still be a DO army, still fluffy and much better. So our loss, IMHO is minor.

The game is changing, we Can't stay gripping the past tightly, we have to change with it.

Be positive, use the changes to discover new ways to play, new ways to win.

GW has been changing the game, everybody new that terminators as troops would have their days numbered, we just refused to see that.

 

Even in fluff it should be a rarity that you get to field a DW army, terminators are there 99% of the time to support their battle brothers, not to fight on their own.

[Hjarl]

I could live with the detatchment if they faq´ed it, so that units with a dedicated LR could actually deploy in THEIR land raider... That would fix so many things wrong with the detatchment.

[Ishagu]

Yeah, without an faq a pure DW any isn't really viable but the codex as a whole is very strong.

A Ravening force supported by Grav in pods, and Knights in a Landraider would be very potent. Also the flyers are now good, as are the unique speeders.

[Varizel]

 

Nope... but putting 3 dreadnoughts on drop pods is pretty fine in terms of fluff yeah? they have to destroy 6 AV 12 units at that point on turn 1. 

 

You can only take Ven Dreads... And that doesn't help the formation, they still land turn 2.

 

 

Well, drop pod assault lets you land on turn 1 still.... and assuming 3 ven dreadnoughts with drop pods, you got 4 AV12 units on turn 1. With a total of 12 AV12 hull points. Still rough to remove ALL on turn 1. 

 

Look... i'm not saying that the detachment is the very definition of good formation. I even listed them as cons on my post earlier. But it is not nearly as bad as it is made out to be... and it is definitely not Auto lose on turn 1 unless you are just taking full TDA dudes. 

[ChaosPhoenix]

Am I reading this right, that a Power Armor Command Squad could take an Apothecary and ALL grav weapons?

[Freman Bloodglaive]

Am I reading this right, that a Power Armor Command Squad could take an Apothecary and ALL grav weapons?

 

No. An Apothecary isn't a Veteran.

[twopounder]

I just glanced it while working but i seem to like the way the formations go... especially ravenwing's ones. But i think DW being cheaper is nice too, and without testing it on table kinda hard to judge.

Imho at least :

Cons:

* Only the conversion field is left of all our shield... no more displacer, no more PFG.

* Azrael still has AP3, no Eternal Warrior.

* No Formations that supported DW in LR, since they all forces DW to be in reserve.

* No more DW Vehicles

* Monster Slayer of Caliban still more expensive than the buffed Mace of Redemption

* Most likely we will never enjoy the benefit of Lion's Blade detachment.... and why chaplain? and not Chaplain or Interrogator Chaplain?

* DW formations/detachments forces you to put them all in reserve.

* No more standards.... replaced with just Sacred Standard just like 4th ed.

Pros:

* Grav Cannon and Grav Guns

* Str 7 AP3 Blacksword Missile with Missile Lock (which shouldn't have been deleted in earlier codex when we transitioned to 7th)

* 36 inch Plasma Storm Battery compared to the 24 we got before (hey... still a buff )

* AP3 Mace of Absolution, making them much more deadlier to any foes.

* Overwatch bonuses... kinda nice.

* Points adjustment on some units.

* Formations aplenty.

Musings:

* It seems Landspeeders take the place of Attack Bikes now for RW Squads with the Attack Squadron formation. Before we would take 3 bikes, 1 AB. With how our Combat Squad works now, it seems it'll be Bikes and landspeeder with landspeeder fulfilling the role of the attack bikes.

* The DW formations/detachment seems to emphasise on mobility on top of Alpha Strike capabilities.... cheaper pts too. The detachment's limitation is horrendous though.

* Hammer of Caliban is a bit too restricting it seems with the rules that ALL must be in the same squadon. If on a heavily terrained table, it will be a nightmare to move them.

my 2 cents.

Lion's Blade rules are killing and will break games. 2 RW Support Squadrons with 5x speeders and a dark shroud can wreck whatever is charging. Throw a devastator squad worth of fire power into it (if they're attack your devs) and you can have a brutal defense against any attacker. Example - RWSS with 2 heavy bolters on each = 30 hb shots @ BS4. The grav-cannons on the devastators will annihilate anything the heavy bolters can't.

Free transports? Easy to do as long as you have transports. You don't need full 10 man squads to fill out those two demi-companies. Sure, assault squads aren't exactly top shelf, but they can get the job done for their points. 6 tac squads? Done it before without the massive grim resolve buff. Stick 5 man squads in cover with lascannons/multi-meltas. They'll get a free razorback with twin-linked heavy bolter to back them up. I'd rather have an IC than regular chappy, but chaplains are cheap and the two HQ will plant fearless on a couple of squads.

Loss of PFG is countered by reasonable dark shrouds planted in RWSS, which gives them extra fodder to be even more annoying. Best of all, dark shroud has a 6" range instead of 3".

This codex really is 95% good. Just some small irks and annoying oversights/typos that prevent it from being divine.

[Frater Cornelius]

Yeah, without an faq a pure DW any isn't really viable but the codex as a whole is very strong.

A Ravening force supported by Grav in pods, and Knights in a Landraider would be very potent. Also the flyers are now good, as are the unique speeders.

Heh, you just named my Tri-wing list for Friday and hopefully Thursday ;) Ezekiel with 5 DWK in Crusader, 20 Tacs with M, CM, GC in Pods and one empty pod, Sammael and 2 units of 5 RWBK with a Dark Shroud in the second Detachment. At 2k throw a Dark Talon into the CAD.

[Stoic Raptor]

I'm in agreement with Varizel and Slipstreams.  This is only an "auto-lose" for people who have an irregular definition of "pure Deathwing" or who are so hidebound on playing an all-Terminator army that they refuse to consider the powerful synergy that is unique to our Chapter.

 

If you dismiss a Land Raider Crusader as "not Deathwing", then what's a Drop Pod to you?  You can drop half of your Dreadnoughts on Turn 1.  You don't even need to hide them - just don't be a fool and plop them in the enemy crossfire.  If you can't keep a couple of units alive for one turn, you may need to re-evaluate your strategies.

 

If you're dead-set on playing an exclusively Terminator army, you might as well play Unbound anyways - because you're rejecting a majority of our Codex options and all of the powerful interplay that is our strength.  Don't complain that we're weak if you refuse to leverage the combined arms power that is the reason the wings exist in the first place.

[twopounder]

I can say one thing for certain - the land speeders are coming off the shelf and getting dusted off. I kind of regret not buying more of them when they were cheap.

[Varizel]

I just glanced it while working but i seem to like the way the formations go... especially ravenwing's ones. But i think DW being cheaper is nice too, and without testing it on table kinda hard to judge.

Imho at least :

Cons:

* Only the conversion field is left of all our shield... no more displacer, no more PFG.

* Azrael still has AP3, no Eternal Warrior.

* No Formations that supported DW in LR, since they all forces DW to be in reserve.

* No more DW Vehicles

* Monster Slayer of Caliban still more expensive than the buffed Mace of Redemption

* Most likely we will never enjoy the benefit of Lion's Blade detachment.... and why chaplain? and not Chaplain or Interrogator Chaplain?

* DW formations/detachments forces you to put them all in reserve.

* No more standards.... replaced with just Sacred Standard just like 4th ed.

Pros:

* Grav Cannon and Grav Guns

* Str 7 AP3 Blacksword Missile with Missile Lock (which shouldn't have been deleted in earlier codex when we transitioned to 7th)

* 36 inch Plasma Storm Battery compared to the 24 we got before (hey... still a buff )

* AP3 Mace of Absolution, making them much more deadlier to any foes.

* Overwatch bonuses... kinda nice.

* Points adjustment on some units.

* Formations aplenty.

Musings:

* It seems Landspeeders take the place of Attack Bikes now for RW Squads with the Attack Squadron formation. Before we would take 3 bikes, 1 AB. With how our Combat Squad works now, it seems it'll be Bikes and landspeeder with landspeeder fulfilling the role of the attack bikes.

* The DW formations/detachment seems to emphasise on mobility on top of Alpha Strike capabilities.... cheaper pts too. The detachment's limitation is horrendous though.

* Hammer of Caliban is a bit too restricting it seems with the rules that ALL must be in the same squadon. If on a heavily terrained table, it will be a nightmare to move them.

my 2 cents.

Lion's Blade rules are killing and will break games. 2 RW Support Squadrons with 5x speeders and a dark shroud can wreck whatever is charging. Throw a devastator squad worth of fire power into it (if they're attack your devs) and you can have a brutal defense against any attacker. Example - RWSS with 2 heavy bolters on each = 30 hb shots @ BS4. The grav-cannons on the devastators will annihilate anything the heavy bolters can't.

Free transports? Easy to do as long as you have transports. You don't need full 10 man squads to fill out those two demi-companies. Sure, assault squads aren't exactly top shelf, but they can get the job done for their points. 6 tac squads? Done it before without the massive grim resolve buff. Stick 5 man squads in cover with lascannons/multi-meltas. They'll get a free razorback with twin-linked heavy bolter to back them up. I'd rather have an IC than regular chappy, but chaplains are cheap and the two HQ will plant fearless on a couple of squads.

Loss of PFG is countered by reasonable dark shrouds planted in RWSS, which gives them extra fodder to be even more annoying. Best of all, dark shroud has a 6" range instead of 3".

This codex really is 95% good. Just some small irks and annoying oversights/typos that prevent it from being divine.

Indeed, i didn't see it that way. But that does sound pretty sweet. Just not my playstyle to use 5 men tacts, but i can see where it goes. Landspeeders however is gonna be awesomesauce. I'd prob try it with my 3 tornadoes first. Pulling them out and dusting them off after all these time :D.

[Frater Cornelius]

I'm in agreement with Varizel and Slipstreams. This is only an "auto-lose" for people who have an irregular definition of "pure Deathwing" or who are so hidebound on playing an all-Terminator army that they refuse to consider the powerful synergy that is unique to our Chapter.

 

If you dismiss a Land Raider Crusader as "not Deathwing", then what's a Drop Pod to you? You can drop half of your Dreadnoughts on Turn 1. You don't even need to hide them - just don't be a fool and plop them in the enemy crossfire. If you can't keep a couple of units alive for one turn, you may need to re-evaluate your strategies.

 

If you're dead-set on playing an exclusively Terminator army, you might as well play Unbound anyways - because you're rejecting a majority of our Codex options and all of the powerful interplay that is our strength. Don't complain that we're weak if you refuse to leverage the combined arms power that is the reason the wings exist in the first place.

I salute Ulfgrim Alvsbane, the man who went from a sceptical naysayer to a reasonable and constructive positive-thinker within the same thread. Chapeau ;)

[Freman Bloodglaive]

I'm in agreement with Varizel and Slipstreams.  This is only an "auto-lose" for people who have an irregular definition of "pure Deathwing" or who are so hidebound on playing an all-Terminator army that they refuse to consider the powerful synergy that is unique to our Chapter.

 

If you dismiss a Land Raider Crusader as "not Deathwing", then what's a Drop Pod to you?  You can drop half of your Dreadnoughts on Turn 1.  You don't even need to hide them - just don't be a fool and plop them in the enemy crossfire.  If you can't keep a couple of units alive for one turn, you may need to re-evaluate your strategies.

 

If you're dead-set on playing an exclusively Terminator army, you might as well play Unbound anyways - because you're rejecting a majority of our Codex options and all of the powerful interplay that is our strength.  Don't complain that we're weak if you refuse to leverage the combined arms power that is the reason the wings exist in the first place.

 

 

Neither the Deathwing Redemption Force, nor the Deathwing Strike Force permits the use of Land Raiders because every unit must come in from Deep Strike Reserves. The Redemption Force comes in on one turn, 2, 3, or 4, together, so Dreadnoughts cannot be dropped in the first turn. However it does appear the the Strike Force functions along the lines of regular reserve rolls, which means that half the Venerable Dreadnoughts in their drop pods can come in on the first turn, saving the player from an automatic loss.

[Stoic Raptor]

Since the Speeders are no longer part of the Attack Squad, but are instead their own squadron, looks like I'll need another one so I can have 3. I built the first one as a Tornado with a Heavy Bolter (I can't imagine wanting to be close enough for melta to be effective!). SoI suppose that's how I'll model the others.

I salute Ulfgrim Alvsbane, the man who went from a sceptical naysayer to a reasonable and constructive positive-thinker within the same thread. Chapeau

If you look back on it, you'll see that my position has been consistent throughout - it's been one of Let's wait and see before we get all worked up.

It's not my outlook that's changed, it's everyone else's. When they were all optimistic, my "wait and see" approach was perceived as naysaying. Now look at all the actual naysaying, while I continue to advocate "wait and see".

This is the benefit of healthy skepticism.

[ChaosPhoenix]

 

Am I reading this right, that a Power Armor Command Squad could take an Apothecary and ALL grav weapons?

 

No. An Apothecary isn't a Veteran.

 

Ok, at least 4 Grav Guns pack a punch.

[twopounder]

I'm in agreement with Varizel and Slipstreams.  This is only an "auto-lose" for people who have an irregular definition of "pure Deathwing" or who are so hidebound on playing an all-Terminator army that they refuse to consider the powerful synergy that is unique to our Chapter.

 

If you dismiss a Land Raider Crusader as "not Deathwing", then what's a Drop Pod to you?  You can drop half of your Dreadnoughts on Turn 1.  You don't even need to hide them - just don't be a fool and plop them in the enemy crossfire.  If you can't keep a couple of units alive for one turn, you may need to re-evaluate your strategies.

 

If you're dead-set on playing an exclusively Terminator army, you might as well play Unbound anyways - because you're rejecting a majority of our Codex options and all of the powerful interplay that is our strength.  Don't complain that we're weak if you refuse to leverage the combined arms power that is the reason the wings exist in the first place.

 

I liked having the option of a full DW army, but it's never been remotely competitive. I feel the pain of its loss, but the army has so much more flavor as a whole that I can't really complain much. I guess I'm just grateful we don't have 52 point terminators with stubborn and no invuln anymore (3rd ed anyone?). Even so, they can be a second turn hammer to the face of your opponent. They can drop within 12" a of RWAS and go straight to work, stealing the move shoot/shoot move from Eldar while wearing tactical dreadnought armor. When the enemy counter attacks, they get to face a second wave of BS4 firepower (BS5 from venerables).

 

Come on, you KNOW that's going to hurt.