[HH1.0] Mechanicum Tactica

[Tiger9gamer]

So now that Vultarax rules are out, thoughts? 

 

I'm definitely running two of them in a single maniple at 2k, mostly to deal with the mech Solar Auxilia list and Legion lists I face locally. They also handle Flyers quite well, especially as the Targeting Array drops Jink down to a 5+, 4+ on Agile. 

 

Outside of Legio Cybernetica (their obvious home), what about Taghmata or Ordo Reductor? Do you prefer Lightning-Primaris to it? 

you can't drop a knowledge bomb like that without backup! where did you find the info?

[Terminus]

Two of them feels too expensive. 350 points of dedicated anti-air feels excessive and there are better and cheaper ways to deal with targets on the ground. Still that's about the same cost as 3 secutors in a triaros, so not too awful.

 

I would have gladly given up the flare shields for a discount. And the havoc launcher pays for a bunch of anti cover rules that aren't super relevant in 30K due to its AP5.

 

I'll probably stick to just one.

[Charlo]

Honestly, I think FW are irresponsible for giving this thing Havoc Launchers. It's a flyer and it's main weapon is used for anti vehicle, no one cares that it's S6 or AP5 - people only care that it's haywire.

 

I'll never understand their obsession with giving things weird ap5 small blasts where they are useless (RE shooting at flyers: Contemptor Mortis Havoc Launcher anyone?)

 

It's good, and two are rather survivable - add in some Cyberthurgy and oh boy (if possible...?)

 

Even just a twin linked Flakk missile would have been better maybe.

 

Certainly more survivable than a lightning however, and will do nicely to just finish off stray vehicles.

[Terminus]

The Contemptor's havoc launcher option, which is sold as a CYCLONE MISSILE LAUNCHER, is one of the most frustrating things for me, lol.  It drives me crazy.  I want to literally go VIIIth Legion on whoever wrote that entry. :D

 

Hopefully they will add more weapon options, but that will probably drive the cost up. Maybe swap havoc and flare shield for pair cyclone launchers? Seems fair. ;)

[Charlo]

I bought a Cyclone launcher on eBay then found out it can only be a Havoc.... :|

[Tiger9gamer]

Well, the havoc isn't all that bad... at least it can really hurt troops with 4 str 5 shots and some shredding str 6 shots!

 

also, since it has skyfire does that mean the havoc's have skyfire blasts?

[SockMonkey]

Where are the rules for the vultarax or clean blight-drone thing?

Cheers.

[Brofist]

Remember earlier in the thread I joked it would have twin linked havoc launchers with a rule stacked ontop?

 

Honestly though, you're not getting it for the havoc launchers, you're getting it for the BS5 heavy 3 haywire shots. 2 of them are certainly expensive, but it's a reliable way to deal with spartans.

[Terminus]

Imperial Armour XVI will be big if they bring it over to 40K where there are more Sv5+ targets. I wish it had a way to split fire, like a machine spirit on the havoc. And later they may get other options for rockets in the final book.

 

I still think it's got funky upgrades and hate the havoc, but also see myself never running Cybernetica without one. I probably wouldn't bother with two, just use cybertheurgy to frontload damage.

[Carlson793]

 

So now that Vultarax rules are out, thoughts? 

 

I'm definitely running two of them in a single maniple at 2k, mostly to deal with the mech Solar Auxilia list and Legion lists I face locally. They also handle Flyers quite well, especially as the Targeting Array drops Jink down to a 5+, 4+ on Agile. 

 

Outside of Legio Cybernetica (their obvious home), what about Taghmata or Ordo Reductor? Do you prefer Lightning-Primaris to it? 

you can't drop a knowledge bomb like that without backup! where did you find the info?

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/326365-vultarax-stratos-automata-maniple/

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Two of them feels too expensive. 350 points of dedicated anti-air feels excessive and there are better and cheaper ways to deal with targets on the ground. Still that's about the same cost as 3 secutors in a triaros, so not too awful.

 

I would have gladly given up the flare shields for a discount. And the havoc launcher pays for a bunch of anti cover rules that aren't super relevant in 30K due to its AP5.

 

I'll probably stick to just one. 

 

Um...have you not heard the apocalyptic moaning of Legion players when the Vultarax leaked? They're already panicking that Dorito Dreads can't knock them out of the sky fast enough. 

 

Heavy 3 Haywire kills Spartans, Land Raiders and Leviathans, especially with Rite of Destruction for double tap. Flare shield is just added hilarity, I don't care if it loses it with an update. It's already crazy value. 

Honestly, I think FW are irresponsible for giving this thing Havoc Launchers. It's a flyer and it's main weapon is used for anti vehicle, no one cares that it's S6 or AP5 - people only care that it's haywire.

 

I'll never understand their obsession with giving things weird ap5 small blasts where they are useless (RE shooting at flyers: Contemptor Mortis Havoc Launcher anyone?)

 

It's good, and two are rather survivable - add in some Cyberthurgy and oh boy (if possible...?)

 

Even just a twin linked Flakk missile would have been better maybe.

 

Certainly more survivable than a lightning however, and will do nicely to just finish off stray vehicles.

 

Nah I like it. One thing that's noticeable with Cybernatica in particular is they don't handle hordes well. You have only one shot per Thanatar, and Darkfire Castellax hate on elite infantry fine but they won't wipe out a horde of weaker infantry. Vorax would work but they die so easily. 

 

Also you have to consider how nasty this becomes with Rite of Destruction. That's 8x twin-linked S5 AP5 blasts at BS5, -1 to cover and re-roll cover saves. That is enough to chew up Marines and you may even drop Terminators/Jetbikes with that many wounds on target. Also, don't forget this has the speed to flank enemy Flyers. Due to Swooping Hunter rules, you can layer these S5 blasts on the rear or side AV and pray for 6's. You may only need to finish off the enemy Flyer, because your Haywire nose gun will already strip 2-3 HP per turn. 

The Contemptor's havoc launcher option, which is sold as a CYCLONE MISSILE LAUNCHER, is one of the most frustrating things for me, lol.  It drives me crazy.  I want to literally go VIIIth Legion on whoever wrote that entry. 

 

Hopefully they will add more weapon options, but that will probably drive the cost up. Maybe swap havoc and flare shield for pair cyclone launchers? Seems fair. 

 

Probably would make Contemptors a bit too good at shooting. It's annoying but people don't normally take a shoulder launcher anyway, wanna keep Contemptors cheap. 

 

They've hinted more variants are coming in the unit entry and elsewhere. So yeah I'd expect other loadouts, like how Castellax and Thanatars got variants. 

also, since it has skyfire does that mean the havoc's have skyfire blasts?

 

Yes indeed :) pretty great actually if you can flank the other Flyer. 

 

Honestly though, you're not getting it for the havoc launchers, you're getting it for the BS5 heavy 3 haywire shots. 2 of them are certainly expensive, but it's a reliable way to deal with spartans.

 

 

Oh yeah for sure, that's the main selling point. Highly mobile high AV killer, that can maul infantry once all the enemy armour and Flyers are dead. 

Imperial Armour XVI will be big if they bring it over to 40K where there are more Sv5+ targets. I wish it had a way to split fire, like a machine spirit on the havoc. And later they may get other options for rockets in the final book. 

 

I still think it's got funky upgrades and hate the havoc, but also see myself never running Cybernetica without one. I probably wouldn't bother with two, just use cybertheurgy to frontload damage. 

 

I think its fine as is. You can always run them as solo Fast Attack choices. But I'd probably be shooting both at the same target anyway, and I need the slots for Arlatax. 

 

Rite of Destruction on one, with the other firing normally, will one round a Spartan or Knight-Titan on average dice (assuming you can flank the Knight-Titan's ion shield). 

[Terminus]

The rules disagree with you: "Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers."

 

So skyfire or not, the havoc launcher is useless against non-ground targets. Listing all the cover modifiers they have is also meaningless since there are very few Sv5+ targets in 30K. Mechanicum being able to evaporate Knights in a round of shooting is nothing new. *shrug*

[Flint13]

So after I've had some time to get in a couple games with a pair of proxies, I'm kinda thinking the same thing about Vulturax I do about Thanatar and Myrmidons.

 

As in they're fun, they're different, they're pretty effective, buuuuuut seems like they're taking points that could be better invested in more Castellax, Thallax and Krios Venators. Maybe I'm just getting set in my ways.

[Terminus]

Try just one. That will be my start. If you come across a 6HP target you can frontload damage with cybertheurgy. Because unless you're facing Spartan spam or Solar Auxilia tank formations, all your other guns can contribute to dealing with AV, so you end up with a 175 point light infantry thresher. One of those isn't too bad, but 350 points of your list relegated to throwing out a pile of AP5 attacks is not great.

[Flint13]

You know, I just realized that 4xStr5AP5 templates is exactly what the frag rapiers do, and folks tend to love those. They're even similar in T/W.

 

The difference is just 100pts for flying and a haywire blaster... maybe that's why they feel inherently inefficient?

[Terminus]

I would pay 100 for flying and haywire blaster if I didn't have to buy the 75 point mortar. :P

 

Also mortars have a distinct role and for 180 points you're dropping 12 of those templates with barrage.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Terminus

[Shaolin_Monkey]

The rules may state as above but one of the recent FAQs clarified that blasts can target flyers. Many people don't like it same as other FAQs. But still.

[Terminus]

^Thats good news, which FAQ had that answer?

[Slips]

I think it might be in the Death From The Skies one but, yeah, if it becomes official, if you have skyfire and a blast or template weapon, you can shoot flyers with them now.

[Terminus]

Well at least you can use them to shoot down lightnings I guess! And glance Rhinos to death.

[Slips]

That and if youre playing mysterious objectives for whatever reason and rolled skyfire nexus and somehow had a Heavy Conversion Beamer contemptor beside it, well, he could try to nuke a flyer out of the sky.

 

It also means Graviton guns with skyfire can shoot flyers now too.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Slipstreams

[Flint13]

That makes sense at least.

 

What are flak cannons if not blast weapons aimed by educated guesswork?

[Brofist]

I'm with Terminus. I think taking one in a Cybernetica list just for the turn 1 double tap makes it a pretty cheap way of dealing with things like Spartans or other ~6hp armoured threats.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The rules disagree with you: "Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers."

 

So skyfire or not, the havoc launcher is useless against non-ground targets. Listing all the cover modifiers they have is also meaningless since there are very few Sv5+ targets in 30K. Mechanicum being able to evaporate Knights in a round of shooting is nothing new. *shrug*

 

Unless they have Skyfire. 

So after I've had some time to get in a couple games with a pair of proxies, I'm kinda thinking the same thing about Vulturax I do about Thanatar and Myrmidons.

 

As in they're fun, they're different, they're pretty effective, buuuuuut seems like they're taking points that could be better invested in more Castellax, Thallax and Krios Venators. Maybe I'm just getting set in my ways. 

 

Cybernetica or Taghmata?

Try just one. That will be my start. If you come across a 6HP target you can frontload damage with cybertheurgy. Because unless you're facing Spartan spam or Solar Auxilia tank formations, all your other guns can contribute to dealing with AV, so you end up with a 175 point light infantry thresher. One of those isn't too bad, but 350 points of your list relegated to throwing out a pile of AP5 attacks is not great. 

 

I face mech SA locally, and my Legion opponents tend to field annoying backfield artillery or Spartans/LR. Knight-Titans are a popular LoW choice too, so are Malcadors as Heavy in SA, and they're getting Stormlords soon. Superheavies shrug off darkfire quite well, especially with a flare shield. The inability to one-shot Superheavies is a real pain, you have to HP strip them to death (even Dracosans tend to not die unless you chip them down). I don't think my meta is that unusual either. 30k seems to be going through a 40k 5th edition mech phase. 

 

The thing you're underestimating is how quickly the Vultarax can cross the field and put hurt on the enemy. Cybernetica are generally slow, so its nice having something fast to hit the enemy line Turn 1 no matter where they deploy. 

You know, I just realized that 4xStr5AP5 templates is exactly what the frag rapiers do, and folks tend to love those. They're even similar in T/W.

 

The difference is just 100pts for flying and a haywire blaster... maybe that's why they feel inherently inefficient? 

 

Wow you guys are hard to please. I think Vultarax are borderline broken in their current incarnation. We already have AP2 in both blast and multi-shot form. Arlatax for melee. Anti-Flyer and ranged anti-AV/artillery was our remaining gap. It even brings some anti-infantry to maul enemy infantry so they don't hit you at full strength. Great for picking off stragglers on objectives if the Thanatar blast didn't get them all. 

 

You're comparing an immobile pure anti-infantry artillery unit, that will do nothing to high AV, Superheavies or Flyers...and because the Vultarax is 100pts more its bad? It can even stab backfield heavy weapon squads to death if need be, its still a Monstrous Creature after all (and power blades are such a cheap upgrade its probably ok, even at S4 its still AP2 attacks). 

I'm with Terminus. I think taking one in a Cybernetica list just for the turn 1 double tap makes it a pretty cheap way of dealing with things like Spartans or other ~6hp armoured threats. 

 

I'm getting a maniple of two for redundancy. Superheavies are my bane locally, I've seen how useless Thallax and even Castellax are against them. Besides Arlatax surviving to get into melee with arc scourges, they're practically invulnerable. 

 

[Flint13]

^Cybernetica. Those improved ranges will give you plenty of room to let the Vulturax scoot around where it wants to go to set up flank shots.

 

There isn't a whole lot of point to running Taghmata, I've found. When you can get better robits and cortex/cybertheurgy ranges with cybernetica or ignore 75% of terrain and bring hella scoring tanks as reductor, the minor list tweaks are worth it.