[HH1.0] Mechanicum Tactica

[disease]

Can Scoria be blinded?   trying to see if he can solo Perturabo (who has concussive, striikdeown and blind to name a few rules)

[Flint13]

He can be blinded but does have Ini5 and a Cyber Familiar, so it isn't too likely.

 

He can definitely solo 'Turbo, I've done it myself four separate times now.

 

I'd actually advise against trying to solo him with anything. You really want as many extra attacks in there as possible. The only two times I've ever lost him, over a sample size of about three dozen games now, both were in a melee with Primarchs and terminator bodyguards. Once Scoria didn't have a Castellax posse to charge up with Rite of the Beast, they were able to just swamp his 3++/5+FnP with str8ap2 wounds. Hilariously, still killed the enemy primarch both times though.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Looks like the Vultarax are coming soon.  I already pre-ordered some because I absolutely love their design and rules.  Once all is said and done, how do you think it will be run?  I feel like the obvious answer is in a Legio Cybernetica list but I am thinking that it can be immensely useful in the Ordo Reductor's.  Mars-Colossus artillery batteries plus two separate Vultarax could make a devastating combination.  That opponent's new land raider?  Pop it open, make their prized terminator squad footslog it while Myrmidons of the like pound it with long range weaponry.  Use the artillery batteries to insta-gib any normal marines that disembark/come out of destroyed rhinos.  Krios Venators sound fun too, but at this point I feel like we are running out of HS slots.

 

Single maniple of two in my Cybernetica list. Once all the enemy heavy armour is dead, I'll focus on shredding their weaker infantry with massed S5 blasts. I already have Thanatars and darkfire Castellax to shred Terminators. I need my other FA slots for Arlatax. 

 will be run as singles. Their role of chaff cleanser is going to be rare in 30K, and two will frequently be too many points not doing much. If you need to hit something with 6 haywire attacks you got 

 

But yeah, Macrocarid and Vultarax incoming. Now we just need Arlatax and Skoria. 

 

They do more than chaff cleansing. 3+ armour will fail to enough S5, and you output four per Vultarax with twin-linked, plus you'll average two wounds from the Haywire gun. Veteran Marksman are in vogue right now, so that's a good choice of expensive power-armoured unit to melt after they hop out of their drop pod/Rhino.

He can be blinded but does have Ini5 and a Cyber Familiar, so it isn't too likely. 

 

He can definitely solo 'Turbo, I've done it myself four separate times now. 

 

I'd actually advise against trying to solo him with anything. You really want as many extra attacks in there as possible. The only two times I've ever lost him, over a sample size of about three dozen games now, both were in a melee with Primarchs and terminator bodyguards. Once Scoria didn't have a Castellax posse to charge up with Rite of the Beast, they were able to just swamp his 3++/5+FnP with str8ap2 wounds. Hilariously, still killed the enemy primarch both times though. 

 

Haha nice. If they send their Deathstar at you you'd probably want to pile them with Arlatax as well. They're ungodly powerful with Beast mode. 

[Flint13]

I do love the Arlatax, but my lists are down to just the Homonculex recently.

 

I'm actually finding Ursarax to be a little more valuable than Arlatax. The two downsides of Ini1 and being vulnerable to Str10 templates are consistently outweighed by the amazing damage output. Three Ursarax with powerfists are about the same points as a PoM Arlatax, but triple the amount of attacks at Str10. Entertainingly, they also have a better FnP than the Arlie.

[disease]

He can be blinded but does have Ini5 and a Cyber Familiar, so it isn't too likely.

 

He can definitely solo 'Turbo, I've done it myself four separate times now.

 

I'd actually advise against trying to solo him with anything. You really want as many extra attacks in there as possible. The only two times I've ever lost him, over a sample size of about three dozen games now, both were in a melee with Primarchs and terminator bodyguards. Once Scoria didn't have a Castellax posse to charge up with Rite of the Beast, they were able to just swamp his 3++/5+FnP with str8ap2 wounds. Hilariously, still killed the enemy primarch both times though.

 

Thanks for that. Was only looking for in a vaccum, with retinues it can significantly tip the balance either way. Pert doesn't have a huge number of attacks, but given Forgebreaker in his hands is concussive, strikedown and blind, he knocks most opponents down to WS1 quite easily - when mathhammering he only loses to Horus (cant change statline easily) and Guilliman (immune to concussion).  So a friend and I were wondering against Scoria who can take on most primarchs with ease. 

 

Scoria needs to be a LOW in my opinion, 75pts more expensive and significantly large when on an abeyant so cannot get cover easily. He's too much for a minor character right now. He's not even the boss of Xana forge!  

[Flint13]

^Horus is typically the only Primarch to have a good chance against Scoria since he can drop WS, and force 5s to hit.

 

Which is, of course if he can actually make those wounds happen before Scoria vomits enough AP2 wounds at him to get through his 3++. Any Primarch that has a 4++ goes down even quicker.

 

I think Scoria works fine were he is. Primarchs get a marked number of advantages over him that are worth enough to push them to a LoW slot.

[disease]

^Horus is typically the only Primarch to have a good chance against Scoria since he can drop WS, and force 5s to hit.

 

Which is, of course if he can actually make those wounds happen before Scoria vomits enough AP2 wounds at him to get through his 3++. Any Primarch that has a 4++ goes down even quicker.

 

I think Scoria works fine were he is. Primarchs get a marked number of advantages over him that are worth enough to push them to a LoW slot.

 

 

Flint, I'm afraid I wholeheartedly disagree with that statement, in a sense that I do not think Scoria is fine as is, and do not see those advantages which the Primarch's get over him?

 

It's not just the fact he can solo 15 of the released Primarchs (who are supposed to be the pinnacle of human advancement and demi-gods made flesh), it's also that he is significantly cheaper in pts value, eternal warrior, has strong and varied shooting, offers considerable buffs to units around him both through his warlord trait and mastery of cyberthurgy, and to top it off still allows an additonal LOW to be taken in addition.  Further his bodyguard, the hemonculex, is just an arletax with paragon and rage thrown in for free. The thing that bugs me most, is that he is not even the fabricator general Kelbor Hal, but just a guy. 

 

If Scoria was just a primarch killer, I'd be fine with that. It's everything else on top that makes him, and I use this term with consideration, 'broken and OP' at his current pts value. 

 

 

EDIT: Can he be taken as a leader of an allied force with two castellax, and therefore be outflanked by Horus etc?

 

EDIT 2:  The only weakness I can see is that he is not fearless and therefore is a small chance he could be swept.

Edited October 30, 2016 by disease

[Flint13]

Sorry you disagree. Let's talk about it.

 

First, he's not just a guy. He's the guy who took over a Forge World that was 99/100s the potency of Mars, and he did it starting from a prison cell. He's one of the founding fathers of the Dark Mechanicum, imprisioned on an already shady Forge World because even they thought he was getting crazy with his experiments. If you have the resources of an entire Forge Empire at your disposal, you get some pretty impressive equipment.

 

Second, he's far less manueverable and flexible than a Primarch, which makes a huge difference. He can only cast Cybertheurgy from outside of a combat, which precludes him from doing so for more than a turn if he's still going to use the Vodian Scepter everyone is so scared of. Every Primarch is fleet, Scoria has a -1 to charge distances. But the biggest deal is that the mechanicum doesn't have a single assault transport. Zero. No options for deep strike or infiltrate either. When is the last time you've seen a Primarch without a spartan or deep striking? Scoria has the option to either footslog across the board in a posse of Castellax or go for a Macrocarid Explorator which prevents him from using Cybertheurgy, his ranged weapons, or the Cybernetica controller, which he then can't assault out of.

 

So far, every argument I've heard against Scoria has been easily condensible to "I don't like that my Primarch can't smash him in combat like everything else, and I don't want to change what I'm doing."

 

Scoria murders Primarchs in close combat. He's really good at it. Stop throwing a Primarchs into combat with Scoria.

 

Edit - Congrats, you're left with a non-scoring unit of two Castellax and Scoria that is closer and still can't assault.

 

Edit 2 - The only weakness if you only consider what happens if you continue to try to bounce Primarchs off of him.

[depthcharge12]

Slap Scoria with the D. Seriously, a lancer would do great against him. Or hell, a castigator.

[Flint13]

^A castigator probably wouldn't be the best bet. It could hack down his robot bodyguard, but the Str10 is going to bounce off of Scoria's 3++/5+FnP. On top of which, Scoria and a Castellax posse would swing before anything but a charging lancer, so it may be difficult to live long enough to make wounds happen.

 

A lancer would do damage if it could get there. Charging, it would be going simultaneously with Scoria and his robot posse though, so it may be difficult to actually get the wounds onto Scoria instead of just annihilating his bodyguard before detonating yourself.

[Slips]

^A castigator probably wouldn't be the best bet. It could hack down his robot bodyguard, but the Str10 is going to bounce off of Scoria's 3++/5+FnP. On top of which, Scoria and a Castellax posse would swing before anything but a charging lancer, so it may be difficult to live long enough to make wounds happen.

 

A lancer would do damage if it could get there. Charging, it would be going simultaneously with Scoria and his robot posse though, so it may be difficult to actually get the wounds onto Scoria instead of just annihilating his bodyguard before detonating yourself.

However, unlike other knights, the Lancer does have an Invulnerable in CC and can concuss a few with his Lance's Shooting if he can get the wounds through (its a Heavy 6 Plasma gun with concussive) and if you take the Lancer as a Seneschal from a Questoris Knights list, he gets a +1 invuln which works in CC too to make him extra annoying for the Scoria-And-Castellax posse to beat down.

 

I'm still a bit partial to kiting the unit with an Atrapos since you can just Singularity it and stay relatively safe and if you roll a 6 to turn it into a Vortex, it could mean the posse having a bad time.

 

But, outside of running a Questoris Knights army to get an Atrapos, using a LoW slot for the Lancer seems the best.

 

Knights can also stomp them. Roll a 6 and buh-bye.

 

Also if the knight dies, you get another shot at Ding them out.

[Shaolin_Monkey]

What Flint said. Scoria is a badass because he is supposed to be. Read book six and you'll see.

 

And he does have big downsides just by being in the mechanicum list as mentioned.

 

Mostly he is just cool and has a great story. Plus Dark Mechanicum is really the only Mechanicum worth playing!

[Brofist]

I ran Scoria with two Castellax today to match up against my friends Horus and a full unit of Justerin. I also charged in a 15 man tactical squad with apothecary and chaplain.

 

The combat ended up down to a Justerin Captain, Scoria, and Horus. Scoria won out in the end. I got lucky and regened 2 of his lost wounds meanwhile Horus had taken a few random wounds throughout the combat and finally went down when he wiffed 3 saves in a row. He's a mean bastard, that's for sure. I even failed my rite of the beast when I charged in.

[Caillum]

But the biggest deal is that the mechanicum doesn't have a single assault transport.

Can't Mechanicum take a Stormlord? :)

[Slips]

 

But the biggest deal is that the mechanicum doesn't have a single assault transport.

Can't Mechanicum take a Stormlord?

 

Cant transport MC's or Jetpack Infantry though so that limits what can go with Scoria.

[Shaolin_Monkey]

 

But the biggest deal is that the mechanicum doesn't have a single assault transport.

Can't Mechanicum take a Stormlord? :)

Nope. They cannot.

 

They can take Super Heavies not listed in their book "which do not already have a heresy era counterpart"

 

Stormlord has rules in the SA list so it's a no go for Mech.

[disease]

Sorry you disagree. Let's talk about it.

 

First, he's not just a guy. He's the guy who took over a Forge World that was 99/100s the potency of Mars, and he did it starting from a prison cell. He's one of the founding fathers of the Dark Mechanicum, imprisioned on an already shady Forge World because even they thought he was getting crazy with his experiments. If you have the resources of an entire Forge Empire at your disposal, you get some pretty impressive equipment.

 

Second, he's far less manueverable and flexible than a Primarch, which makes a huge difference. He can only cast Cybertheurgy from outside of a combat, which precludes him from doing so for more than a turn if he's still going to use the Vodian Scepter everyone is so scared of. Every Primarch is fleet, Scoria has a -1 to charge distances. But the biggest deal is that the mechanicum doesn't have a single assault transport. Zero. No options for deep strike or infiltrate either. When is the last time you've seen a Primarch without a spartan or deep striking? Scoria has the option to either footslog across the board in a posse of Castellax or go for a Macrocarid Explorator which prevents him from using Cybertheurgy, his ranged weapons, or the Cybernetica controller, which he then can't assault out of.

 

So far, every argument I've heard against Scoria has been easily condensible to "I don't like that my Primarch can't smash him in combat like everything else, and I don't want to change what I'm doing."

 

Scoria murders Primarchs in close combat. He's really good at it. Stop throwing a Primarchs into combat with Scoria.

 

Edit - Congrats, you're left with a non-scoring unit of two Castellax and Scoria that is closer and still can't assault.

 

Edit 2 - The only weakness if you only consider what happens if you continue to try to bounce Primarchs off of him.

 

Some good points right there, thanks!  This is why i love B+C - that debate can occur in a grown up fashion.  Had this been social media plaform this would would have generated into mud-flinging. 

[Terminus]

I actually like scooting Skoria up with Vorax, although Vorax are only feasible if you use the FAQ for grenades.

[1ncarnadine]

So far, every argument I've heard against Scoria has been easily condensible to "I don't like that my Primarch can't smash him in combat like everything else, and I don't want to change what I'm doing."

 

I have another argument and a serious question! Would you ever take a regular Archmagos Dominus - ever - when you could instead take Scoria?

 

Like Gahlan Surlak has become for the WE, he almost seems auto-include if you're running Dark Mechanicum Cybernetica, and I'm not sure that's healthy for list-building. Or is the feeling that other units are not strong enough, and Scoria is just right? I could see it either way, and I think depending on what people play against regularly we might all have different points where we draw our lines.

Edited October 31, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Terminus]

False equivalency. I would never take a regular Archmagos Dominus ever, period.

 

Yes, he is an optimal choice if you are playing the Traitor version of one of the 3.5 subversions of Mechanicum you can field. The end is not nigh.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Terminus

[1ncarnadine]

Fair point. FWIW, I was just comparing the different Archmagos entries (including Scoria's) and thinking the vanilla Dominus in particular seemed very, very lacking. The Reductor seems to have so much on him it's not even funny. The only other Cybernetica option (Satarael) has never impressed me very much, either...

[Terminus]

The Archmagos Dominus indeed sucks because they were scared of putting all the usual Archmagos gear into a unit of monstrous creatures (and then created a munchkin's wet dream in Skoria).  Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's broken undercosted, but if he cost a bit more it wouldn't be a big deal. He's already 100+ points more than any non-primarch character than Sigismund.  The regular Dominus is a fantastic generic choice.

 

The Archmagos Reductor is also awesome, but the thing that keeps him from Skoria's level are fewer force multipliers and lack of Eternal Warrior.  Really, the only HQ characters that should be mad at Skoria are Dreykovac and Satael, and that's mainly due to Eternal Warrior. Although IIRC didn't Satael get EW as a buff? I know he got better in the red book.

[1ncarnadine]

I happen to be at home on my day off so I can look it right up...

 

Yeah, looks like he got bumped up a few points but gained +1S and +1W, lost his power axe (inconsequential; he's a monstrous creature), and then he officially gained Patris Cybernetica and Cybertheurgy. Doesn't look like anything else changed. Yeah, still can't say I'm too impressed :(

[Flint13]

 

So far, every argument I've heard against Scoria has been easily condensible to "I don't like that my Primarch can't smash him in combat like everything else, and I don't want to change what I'm doing."

 

I have another argument and a serious question! Would you ever take a regular Archmagos Dominus - ever - when you could instead take Scoria?

 

Like Gahlan Surlak has become for the WE, he almost seems auto-include if you're running Dark Mechanicum Cybernetica, and I'm not sure that's healthy for list-building. Or is the feeling that other units are not strong enough, and Scoria is just right? I could see it either way, and I think depending on what people play against regularly we might all have different points where we draw our lines.

No, I wouldn't.

 

But I wouldn't take an Archmagos Dominus even if Scoria didn't exist. They're not good investments for the hella premium they pay over a regular Magos Dominus.

 

However I have and do regularly take an Archmagos Reductor, because they are fun, change the list dynamics and get work done.

 

*Edit* Or just read everything Terminus just wrote above XD

Edited November 1, 2016 by Flint13

[SkimaskMohawk]

I actually like scooting Skoria up with Vorax, although Vorax are only feasible if you use the FAQ for grenades.

 

Or if you just allocate all the grenade/bomb wounds on to an infantry character in the unit whos in base contact like Scoria or a Praevian since they have no effect unless used against the vehicles, gun emplacements or MCs