[HH1.0] Thousand Sons tactica

[hhhdan]

Seems strange to me that no one on this forum has considered how awesome pyromancy is on veterans with marksmen:

- Marksmen gives veterans sniper rule, which makes anything fired by them have precision shots, wound on 4+ and any 6s are AP2.

- Witchfires (and subtypes) are treated as shooting attacks for all purposes.

- So you get sniping fireballs!

[Jarkaira]

But Magnus even makes them Strength D so sniper magic missiles are just given as granted :)

[hhhdan]

But Magnus even makes them Strength D so sniper magic missiles are just given as granted

 

I was just reading through the pages here, and i haven't seen this mentioned once. While everyone is talking about divination and telepathy being best on them. And while i can't argue with presciencing the already sniping shredding bolters, pyromancy just gives you more opportunities for a pure damage output :D

[hhhdan]

Also I am quite temped to make a Master of Signals with divination, a chance of having perfect timing on the barrage is awesome, but he can also buff two units to shoot better, one with prescience and another with cognis signum. Seems really nice for something like a tactical support squad or heavy support squad.

 

Another cool thing i'm tempted to make is a Deathstorm Drop Pod with krak missiles. Have it deep strike and then before it shoots prescience it, so that its BS2 on the turn it lands isn't that much of a problem

[Jarkaira]

Might be because pyromancy is just a bit redundant given they already got shred that is possibly AP2 as well as choice of combi-wepons available.

 

Although divination gives them even more redundant rules.

 

They both are valid options and nice for you to point it out.

[pompeyladbfp]

Wow, this is my next 30k force and it seems to be the opposite of 40k thousand sons, its awesome!

 

I do think it will be nerfed in later years, but my plan of a elite/term army with magnus for 2500-3000 points seems like it will be a winner.

 

:)

[hhhdan]

Wow, this is my next 30k force and it seems to be the opposite of 40k thousand sons, its awesome!

 

I do think it will be nerfed in later years, but my plan of a elite/term army with magnus for 2500-3000 points seems like it will be a winner.

 

 

I don't think it's going to be nerfed, except for maybe Magnus being slightly altered to represent his incorporeal state. 

 

I think that other legions will just get a lot of buffs to get them onto the same level, like Reavers and Iron Havocs were buffed in the recent books. Currently a lot of special units are just too pricey compared to the generic stuff, like veterans and assault marines (which recently dropped in points).

 

So yeah i think we won't be directly nerfed, but comparatively i expect us to be less powerful when several more black books will be released... 

Might be because pyromancy is just a bit redundant given they already got shred that is possibly AP2 as well as choice of combi-wepons available.

 

Although divination gives them even more redundant rules.

 

They both are valid options and nice for you to point it out.

 

I agree that it seems slightly unnecessary, but if attacking a big unit, like a 20-marine tactical squad or even landing between two units in a drop pod (using orbital assault) having more firepower could be very useful :)

[pompeyladbfp]

but look at the last two red books, units where altered from their original books, it happens.. sekhmets are underpointed, compared to all other terminators. But like everything there is always a rock to its scissor

[hhhdan]

but look at the last two red books, units where altered from their original books, it happens.. sekhmets are underpointed, compared to all other terminators. But like everything there is always a rock to its scissor

 

Stuff was definitely altered, as i mentioned the Havocs and reavers in particular, but not much was really nerfed, most of the things that were underpowered got buffed among legion specific units. The generic stuff however was nerfed slightly, like spartans and sicarans, also mechanicum catellax and myrmidon destroyers

[Withershadow]

Maybe the additional guys are 5 points too cheap but that's a minor deviation from the norm to call for an adjustment. I rather they focus on all the special units that are unusable unmitigated crap.

 

I think people ignore the inate drawbacks of the list, and even if TS are as an OP broken Legion as chicken littles like to shout, they are still on the back foot vs Mechanicum or tank auxilia.

[hhhdan]

Maybe the additional guys are 5 points too cheap but that's a minor deviation from the norm to call for an adjustment. I rather they focus on all the special units that are unusable unmitigated crap.

 

I think people ignore the inate drawbacks of the list, and even if TS are as an OP broken Legion as chicken littles like to shout, they are still on the back foot vs Mechanicum or tank auxilia.

 

I agree that people only see the potentially good things, but ignore that most of the time powers that you want are not guaranteed (like iron arm/warp speed on khenetai blades), you have to pay extra points for everything, so the army has less bodies on the field and finally the signs and portents, which is huge, one unlucky peril and you can screw all of our plans, which becomes even more severe if you lose all ICs.

 

I wouldn't say Thousand sons are worse than mechanicum, as the biggest thing mechanicum tend to have is sturdy robots, which our shredding sniping veterans can eat for breakfast. So it would depend what kind of mechanicum you play against. Cybernetica? you can destroy them. Taghmata? you can still take them on. Reductor? probably not as well. Ordinatus Ulator? You can just pack up after turn 2-3, as can anyone else for that matter.

 

however i do think that we probably will struggle against tank heavy armies, like armoured breakthrough and as you pointed out, solar auxilia, as well as knights. And i also think that cultist lists will make us cry too, as we just won't have enough bodies on the table to take them on and still score points. Oh and lastly we will struggle against sisters of silence for sure, as they just amplify all of our drawbacks and everyone, i think, will struggle against the Custodes...

[Withershadow]

You've never played a decent Mechanicum player if you think robots are the big threat. Yes, even better sniper veterans are nice, but that's more expensive Veterans so there are fewer of them for Mechanicum to kill. Mechanicum excels at ruinous weapons that like high value targets, and TS by their nature will have fewer higher value targets.

[hhhdan]

You've never played a decent Mechanicum player if you think robots are the big threat. Yes, even better sniper veterans are nice, but that's more expensive Veterans so there are fewer of them for Mechanicum to kill. Mechanicum excels at ruinous weapons that like high value targets, and TS by their nature will have fewer higher value targets.

 

I've played plenty of different mechanicum lists and have them myself as a secondary army, but usually a lot of lists, except for vet heavy and rending cultists, struggle against cybernetica, as they are hard to crack. However myrmidons, explorators, flyers, krios and reductor tanks are more dangerous in a damage output.

 

I would also argue that we are better suited to fight mechanicum than a close combat centered army, like cultists and even other legions in assault transports. Especially if we go full raptora and have all our guys be under telekine domes with 4++ from shooting (it's even guaranteed with Sekhmet, so it's possible to build the whole strattegy around it) + the Sekhmet can tank plenty of shots and then counter attack anything that comes close and insta kill them, unless mechanicum have Scoria leading them, then you need to stay away :)

[Withershadow]

Robots are obnoxious but expensive, Reductor firepower is where the terror resides!

[Runefyre]

Robots are obnoxious but expensive, Reductor firepower is where the terror resides!

Reductor+warhound is the worst possible scenario for any astartes army.

 

But when I face it (my FLGS manager has an extensive mechanicum/titan army), I'd want Magnus on my side!

[hhhdan]

Robots are obnoxious but expensive, Reductor firepower is where the terror resides!

 

Well not all of it, reductor tanks are still not that hard to kill, 12/13 10 10 with 3HP is not very tough. I am usually more scared of myrmidons, as those can just delete units

[Nusquam]

Seems strange to me that no one on this forum has considered how awesome pyromancy is on veterans with marksmen:

- Marksmen gives veterans sniper rule, which makes anything fired by them have precision shots, wound on 4+ and any 6s are AP2.

- Witchfires (and subtypes) are treated as shooting attacks for all purposes.

- So you get sniping fireballs!

 

I'd rather get guaranteed AP2 from smite and three other biomancy powers, with the rest being a direct buff to a brotherhood of psykers. Or Psychic Shriek. Pyro would be great for levy spam, or thrall spam.

[hhhdan]

 

Seems strange to me that no one on this forum has considered how awesome pyromancy is on veterans with marksmen:

- Marksmen gives veterans sniper rule, which makes anything fired by them have precision shots, wound on 4+ and any 6s are AP2.

- Witchfires (and subtypes) are treated as shooting attacks for all purposes.

- So you get sniping fireballs!

 

I'd rather get guaranteed AP2 from smite and three other biomancy powers, with the rest being a direct buff to a brotherhood of psykers. Or Psychic Shriek. Pyro would be great for levy spam, or thrall spam.

 

 

I see your point and partially agree. I think, i'll only use pyromancy veterans when i need to do the most impact in one turn - when i use orbital assault rite of war. Makes perfect sense, you get up close on the turn you land and don't have a lot of protection from a transport, so not a lot of staying power.

 

Biomancy and telepathy have a lot of use too, especially when using a rhino as a transport, as you can cast the primaris out of it and with the right powers (shrouding, dominate, iron arm, warp speed, endurance, etc) the unit becomes very strong when disembarked. 

 

Telekinesis could also be very useful actually, sniping assail is nice, but +1 to invul can be very good for a footslogging force if supported by Sekhmet, who chose the telekine dome power, so that all raptora models in range get 4++ from shooting, essentially giving you a mobile cover. And if you get levitation, they will be a very manoeuvrable unit that can get into position to score/deny/shoot someone very quickly... Also in one game i had last week i had a unit that rolled psychic maelstorm and then got almost wiped out, but 1 guy survived two more turns and almost killed 2 units by himself :D (he did waste all of my warp dice, but it was hilarious)

[Mango Polo]

Bringing this here too to stimulate discussion...

 

Crunched out the probabilities of harnessing warp charges for the Sons, to make it easier to see the opportunity cost between 3+ in a discipline and a desired arcana's benefit.

 

http://i.imgur.com/H3kAFt7.png

 

The 3+ is definitely quite big in the vast majority of situations. Not just in lower points when you are low on charges, but for further minimizing perils when you have more charges.

[pompeyladbfp]

cheers for that mango, very useful

[depthcharge12]

I am quite scared of the Crimson King RoW that lets you run Sekhmet squads as troops. While their stats are not as high as Firedrakes, for 45 points less and in cataphractii armor they get a 2+/3++ rerolling 1's when they deepstrike (which is insane that they don't have to pay for DS and get rerolls) not to mention they get a pocket demolisher cannon from their psychic discipline, asphyx shells, stubborn, 2W, and force weapons all for the low low cost of 255 points.

 

Toss in a PM and get a FNP on that and victory points back (5+) if your opponent somehow destroys the Sekhmet. I'd say charge them with dreadnoughts...but you can take chainfist son on the units too!

 

One last thing to mention about them being in cat armor, is that they do not suffer pinning checks from the TS rule as cataphractii armor prevents you from going to ground. Units that cannot go to ground automatically pass pinning checks.

 

I hate to poop in anyone's cereal, but I think they are massively undercosted. They should at least be in the realm of 300 points per squad of 5 like firedrakes. Even Justaerin can't reliably deal with Sekhmet because of their insane ++. At best, any special terminators will trade with the Sekhmet, at worst, your terminators or assault units will get obliterated from the psychic demolisher cannon, asphyx rounds, and force weapons to negate any 2 W.

 

I hope this doesn't come across whiny, it's more of like, what the hell was FW smoking?

[Withershadow]

Warpdust.

[hhhdan]

I am quite scared of the Crimson King RoW that lets you run Sekhmet squads as troops. While their stats are not as high as Firedrakes, for 45 points less and in cataphractii armor they get a 2+/3++ rerolling 1's when they deepstrike (which is insane that they don't have to pay for DS and get rerolls) not to mention they get a pocket demolisher cannon from their psychic discipline, asphyx shells, stubborn, 2W, and force weapons all for the low low cost of 255 points.

 

Toss in a PM and get a FNP on that and victory points back (5+) if your opponent somehow destroys the Sekhmet. I'd say charge them with dreadnoughts...but you can take chainfist son on the units too!

 

One last thing to mention about them being in cat armor, is that they do not suffer pinning checks from the TS rule as cataphractii armor prevents you from going to ground. Units that cannot go to ground automatically pass pinning checks.

 

I hate to poop in anyone's cereal, but I think they are massively undercosted. They should at least be in the realm of 300 points per squad of 5 like firedrakes. Even Justaerin can't reliably deal with Sekhmet because of their insane ++. At best, any special terminators will trade with the Sekhmet, at worst, your terminators or assault units will get obliterated from the psychic demolisher cannon, asphyx rounds, and force weapons to negate any 2 W.

 

I hope this doesn't come across whiny, it's more of like, what the hell was FW smoking?

 

I agree that they are undercosted and should be about 40 pts per model and around 275-280 base.

 

There are a few things that Firedrakes are better at over them, firstly they are WS5 and all are Ld9 and Sergeant has 3 Attacks, plus they are all immune to fear as they are salamanders and re-roll one D6 for morale checks, also concussive thunder hammers are better than power fists. Plus they can score in any rite of war, Sekhmet can score only in guard of the Crimson King or if you take Magnus. And if you want 3++ for them in guard of the Crimson King, you have to take Raptora praetor or Magnus.

 

However the flexibility they have with choosing powers and having 3++ by just choosing Raptora and not sacrificing shooting for it overshadows their drawbacks ... (not great shooting but still, combi weapons are quite good)

Oh, also you can get 3++ in Tartaros Armour even, if you really want to. Just choose raptora cult and fiery form power. When you cast it the whole unit gets 4++ invul, which is improved to 3++ from raptora...

Edited February 13, 2017 by hhhdan

[Mango Polo]

Sekhmet are scoring in Pride lists, seeing as they are Elites.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

I am quite scared of the Crimson King RoW that lets you run Sekhmet squads as troops. While their stats are not as high as Firedrakes, for 45 points less and in cataphractii armor they get a 2+/3++ rerolling 1's when they deepstrike (which is insane that they don't have to pay for DS and get rerolls) not to mention they get a pocket demolisher cannon from their psychic discipline, asphyx shells, stubborn, 2W, and force weapons all for the low low cost of 255 points.

 

Toss in a PM and get a FNP on that and victory points back (5+) if your opponent somehow destroys the Sekhmet. I'd say charge them with dreadnoughts...but you can take chainfist son on the units too!

 

One last thing to mention about them being in cat armor, is that they do not suffer pinning checks from the TS rule as cataphractii armor prevents you from going to ground. Units that cannot go to ground automatically pass pinning checks.

 

I hate to poop in anyone's cereal, but I think they are massively undercosted. They should at least be in the realm of 300 points per squad of 5 like firedrakes. Even Justaerin can't reliably deal with Sekhmet because of their insane ++. At best, any special terminators will trade with the Sekhmet, at worst, your terminators or assault units will get obliterated from the psychic demolisher cannon, asphyx rounds, and force weapons to negate any 2 W.

 

I hope this doesn't come across whiny, it's more of like, what the hell was FW smoking?

I agree that they are undercosted and should be about 40 pts per model and around 275-280 base.

 

There are a few things that Firedrakes are better at over them, firstly they are WS5 and all are Ld9 and Sergeant has 3 Attacks, plus they are all immune to fear as they are salamanders and re-roll one D6 for morale checks, also concussive thunder hammers are better than power fists. Plus they can score in any rite of war, Sekhmet can score only in guard of the Crimson King or if you take Magnus. And if you want 3++ for them in guard of the Crimson King, you have to take Raptora praetor or Magnus.

 

However the flexibility they have with choosing powers and having 3++ by just choosing Raptora and not sacrificing shooting for it overshadows their drawbacks ... (not great shooting but still, combi weapons are quite good)

 

Oh, also you can get 3++ in Tartaros Armour even, if you really want to. Just choose raptora cult and fiery form power. When you cast it the whole unit gets 4++ invul, which is improved to 3++ from raptora...

While thunder hammers may beat fists force weapons destroy custodes and mech on a whole new level. Sekhmet trade 1 to 1 with the best of the custodes never mind the ability to take combi weapons with a 3++ is amazing and unique to them.

 

Salamanders also have a charge penalty of -1 and I can't really see needing magnus to score as a downside...

 

Also the cost compared to stock terminators for additional models is insane. For those who don't know it's a melta bomb more for +1w, unit has mastery level 2, asphyx shells and force weapons for free, cheaper combi weapon than legion terminators, gain stubborn and pick their psychic powers. This is on top of the 3++ the get for being raptora cataphracti.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Purge the Daemon