[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[TheWolfLord]

Yes you can do doughnuts with your Land Raider if you want to.

You could even pivot that sideways deployed Mastodon first to go "straight" and then pivot back in order for not a single part moving extra mileage.

Imo don't know if it is worth that much of unnecessary movement as you can just move it straight sideways.

That's the reason people just move the vehicle side ways.

 

The 6" rule is at the end of the move after you've pivoted again.

 

So if you start sideways, pivot forward, move 6" then pivot sideways again no part has finished the move 6" away from where it started.

 

Sometimes it's quicker to just move it directly where you want it sideways.

 

If there's a lot of terrain you should do it properly though as any terrain can stop pivoting on such a big model.

[ILikeItWhatIsIt]

Hi all, I wanted to register on here to outline my thoughts on the Grey Slayers rules. I apologise if this post comes off as whining or needlessly negative then apologies in advance but the intention is to provide my honest assessment of them and invite some counterpoint rather than moan about it.

 

My current view is that while point for point and taken in isolation Grey Slayers are superior to the tactical squads of basically every other Legion, in the strategic context of building an army they are quite possible the worst tactical (or taxical) unit in 30K. Putting aside the structural issues inherent in an assault unit in a shooting game, they are flawed compared to other options: of the key roles a tactical squad could play, the Grey Slayers are really only useful for one of them.

 

• Seize objectives and destroy the enemy: A role in which they fare well vs other tactical units and will usually fail vs any other unit tooled to do damage. To get to the objectives they will need a transport which limits the option for character support unless you opt for very expensive dedicated transports due to minimum squad sizes. As an assault unit they also need an assault vehicle to maximise their utility, which again leads to expensive transports being required. Without character support, they would best an opposing tactical squad point for point if they get to the objective, but they are very unlikely to face off against that kind of opponent as no one takes tactical squads to seize objectives apart from WE - and their tacticals are better and have better synergy with other elements of their list. To get character support without investing a ton of points in a Spartan or Kharybdis you need to footslog, which turns an actually highly mobile foot unit into a much slower one by removing the benefits of Warrior's Mettle, unless you take a specific special character to lead them. But without characters such as apothecaries or priests, your blob is unlikely to make it up the board as it gets shot to pieces or to have the strength to engage enemy units by the time it gets there.
• Hold objectives: A role in which they excel vs all other tactical units but will still lose to the kind of units people actually take to fight the enemy off of objectives - no one is rolling up there with stock tacticals and the WE tacticals will beat them. Still, they are no worse than other tacticals at this and properly tooled up can do a good job of holding out if you can get them there.
• Be replaced: They're known as taxicals for a reason - one of the most useful things tactical marines do is allow themselves to be replaced by RoW e.g. pride of the legion. However, the rules for grey slayers don't allow this, or even as written allow their Primarch to overrule this despite his special rule allowing vets and terminators to be taken as troops. They are the taxiest taxicals of any Legion!

 

In my opinion, a couple of things could be done that would go some way to improve the viability of SW with respect to this unit. Of these, I think that the first would be more fluff appropriate as it would still encourage players to take Grey Slayers and keep the army more in line with what Forge World seems to see as the vision for the way the legion should operate. Please note I don't think that these are valid interpretations of the rules FW has written at the moment, these changes would require an FAQ/errata. 

• Make the 'Warrior's Mettle' rule conferred: This would allow characters to join Grey Slayer units without compromising the use of their special rules, making large footslogging units more viable and giving you somewhere to put your characters. This would be super fluffy I think and would enable the army to play as FW envisages it.
• Reword the 'Compulsory' wording: Clarify the compulsory wording to make it clear that the intention is to replace the tactical and assault squads as the compulsory troops option in standard age of darkness lists, modified as a appropriate by RoW. This would enable SW to circumvent the issues of Grey Slayers by simply not including them through rites such as PotL. And honestly, as their rules currently stand I cannot see any SW player choosing to run slayers rather than vets as troops if they had a choice. However, this would rob SW of their distinctiveness which I think is a real cop out.

 

Beyond these changes, I think that the SW rules are in dire need of some clarification around the list building rules as well. The current HQ rule as written prevents Russ or either of the special characters from leading their own armies and need a centurion to babysit them which if seriously is what FW intended is ludicrous. As written, the Grey Slayers compulsory rule prevents you from taking advantage of Russ' rule enabling vets and terminators to be taken as troops, which equally can't really be the intent.

 

That said, there are still some ways you can make good use of Grey Slayers:

• I think the best RoW for Space Wolves is Orbital Assault to minimise the issues slayer's have, as it gets them onto the objective where they can defend well without the problem of getting someone else off of it. Follow the 40K way of doing things and flood the board with pods to get as many infantry down as possible and play a very defensive game. Semi-fluffy, darken the sky with pods yes but then be static most of the game?
• Get as many Spartans as you can afford (speaking in terms of bank balance and points) and fill them with max size slayer units tooled up for CC rather than conventional death stars. With priests and probably Russ in one of them they should do ok. Again, semi-fluffy as its much more aggressive but its the armour not the infantry doing the real work.

 

Otherwise - run pseudo-pride of the legion and take the minimum squads and as many vets as will fit if you want infantry, hope that Russ has his rules clarified so that his rule allows you to take vets instead of slayers and approximate PotL, or put them in a Spartan as cheap wound counters for Russ.

 

Would love thoughts and feedback on this, while this may come across as negative the intention is just to accurately review the unit and how its weaknesses can be overcome.

[Lord Blackwood]

I don't think it's whining. I do think it's wish listing though.

Gentlemen let's remember that this is a tactica thread

That means we need to work within the constraints we have been given not pose the rules as we think they should be.

That being said I certainly agree with you that a aFAQ is really needed to sort out some issues.

I also agree with you that orbital assault is the best way forward.

I feel like mech lists geared for assault won't work too well because the points of your assault boats are just going to get ridiculous really quick.

Even in my orbital assault lists I find ,self still taking an equal number of vets cause vets are just that good regardless of legion.

Skaters in orbital assault I feel can both be useful inland and hold. And destroy the enemy unit situations if heard appropriately.

I think the terminators better have the sickest models we have ever seen cause realistically they are not that good for the points investment outside of zone mortalis where terminators in general are really strong.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Bladewolf

[Purge the Daemon]

I don't think it's whining. I do think it's wish,siting though.

 

Gentlemen let's remember that this is a tactica thread

 

That means we need to work within the constraints we have been given not pose the rules as we think they should be.

 

Tha being said I certainly agree with you that a aFAQ is really needed to sort out some issues.

 

I also agree with you that orbital assault is the best way forward.

 

I feel like mech lists geared for assault won't work too well because the points of your assault boats are just going to get ridiculous really quick.

 

Even in my orbital assault lists I find ,self still taking an equal number of vets cause vets are just that good regardless of legion.

 

Skaters in orbital assault I feel can both be useful inland and hold. And destroy the ene,y unit situations if heard appropriately.

 

I think the terminators better have the sickest models we have ever seen cause realistically they are not that good for the points investment outside of zone mortalis where terminators in general are really strong.

I feel min Slayers and vets aren't super different save a bunch if points but lose marksmen. But our terminators I write a list including a unit and everytime I just swap then out for 10 stock terminators and I save 100points I just can't justify Varagyr.

[Frater Cornelius]

10 dudes in a Rhino, 2 Combi-Weapons, 7 Bolters, AA and a weapon on the sergeant (GFB if you can afford it). 205 points. 210 if you insist on a Dozer Blade or a Melta Bomb. An equivalent Tactical Squad would cost around 30-ish points less, but has less hitting power. Do not use this setup to aggressively push. Leave that to units that are designed to slap the enemy. Use them to Scout/Move on an objective and support from there. Bonus points if you position your Rhino to be wrecked and thus serve as line of sight blocker.

 

I think this will be my premier way to run it outside of Orbital. This may get really boring really fast though. I hope that this is not the case.

[Runefyre]

10 dudes in a Rhino, 2 Combi-Weapons, 7 Bolters, AA and a weapon on the sergeant (GFB if you can afford it). 205 points. 210 if you insist on a Dozer Blade or a Melta Bomb. An equivalent Tactical Squad would cost around 30-ish points less, but has less hitting power. Do not use this setup to aggressively push. Leave that to units that are designed to slap the enemy. Use them to Scout/Move on an objective and support from there. Bonus points if you position your Rhino to be wrecked and thus serve as line of sight blocker.

 

I think this will be my premier way to run it outside of Orbital. This may get really boring really fast though. I hope that this is not the case.

This will be how I'll run them most of the time. Though I have enough pods that I can run OA if I want to.

 

But one of these days when I have enough Grey Slayers, I'll take on my brother's World Eater inductii horde. Then I'll footslog everything 'cause WE's don't really take much shooting. That'll be loads of fun!

[sturguard]

But then you have to ask yourself, is the 30 pts and extra hitting power in cc worth losing Fury of the Legion. Being able to hop out of a rhino and firing 40 shots isnt something to sneeze at (its what 4-5 dead power armored marines). I dont know if its worth the combis. I thought it would be good too, I just dont know that they will ever get into range to use them if you work your way up the board slowly. You might be better with a meltabomb and a pfist on a generic dude (that way you have a chance to take out a contemptor). Also it says any GS can have a combat shield, can you put one on the sergeant? This along with the gfb might ensure he lives in some challenges.

I agree on the terminators, I was playing with the points last night. So you get 10 stock terminators for 6 of the SW ones, not to mention you can put 2 plasmablasters on them and a few cheap combis. You'll still have WS5 when you charge, you still have counter charge. WS6 adds no extra benefit over WS5 against WS4 troops. In most situations pfists are better than frost weaponry (in my opinion) and the Bloodied Claw would still allow them to reroll charges (and if you really want to, you could take Red Blade and make them Tartaros termies- although I would rather have the +1 invul).

 

I am hoping that 8th edition makes charging from outflank a rule again, that way we would get a boost from some of our rules.

 

Edited February 13, 2017 by sturguard

[Runefyre]

You can't FOTL the turn you disembark from a transport, deep strike, or move. That's why I much prefer Warrior's Mettls over FOTL.

 

FOTL is just too wonky to use effectively. Your opponent can see it coming from a mile away and can move his units accordingly.

 

Warrior's Mettle actually tailors to the combat-orientated statline of a space marine.

[Ranwulf]

 

But then you have to ask yourself, is the 30 pts and extra hitting power in cc worth losing Fury of the Legion. Being able to hop out of a rhino and firing 40 shots isnt something to sneeze at (its what 4-5 dead power armored marines). I dont know if its worth the combis. I thought it would be good too, I just dont know that they will ever get into range to use them if you work your way up the board slowly. You might be better with a meltabomb and a pfist on a generic dude (that way you have a chance to take out a contemptor). Also it says any GS can have a combat shield, can you put one on the sergeant? This along with the gfb might ensure he lives in some challenges.

I agree on the terminators, I was playing with the points last night. So you get 10 stock terminators for 6 of the SW ones, not to mention you can put 2 plasmablasters on them and a few cheap combis. You'll still have WS5 when you charge, you still have counter charge. WS6 adds no extra benefit over WS5 against WS4 troops. In most situations pfists are better than frost weaponry (in my opinion) and the Bloodied Claw would still allow them to reroll charges (and if you really want to, you could take Red Blade and make them Tartaros termies- although I would rather have the +1 invul).

 

I am hoping that 8th edition makes charging from outflank a rule again, that way we would get a boost from some of our rules.

 

 

Agree on the Termies part, but Fury of the Legion demands a lot of positioning. You can't move or disembark from a vechile, so I don't think it's THAT useful.

 

Ran

[Caillum]

But then you have to ask yourself, is the 30 pts and extra hitting power in cc worth losing Fury of the Legion. Being able to hop out of a rhino and firing 40 shots isnt something to sneeze at (its what 4-5 dead power armored marines).

Might want to double-check the Fury rules mate. Can't use it after disembarking.

 

I agree and disagree with your Terminator thoughts. Taking Legion Terminators over Varagyr is probably a good idea, especially if you can charge for WS5. But with Hvarl Red-Blade I would take Tartaros. Sweeping Advance is very useful! Just make sure they have a Speaker of the Dead and ride in a Spartan.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

But then you have to ask yourself, is the 30 pts and extra hitting power in cc worth losing Fury of the Legion. Being able to hop out of a rhino and firing 40 shots isnt something to sneeze at (its what 4-5 dead power armored marines).

Might want to double-check the Fury rules mate. Can't use it after disembarking.

 

I agree and disagree with your Terminator thoughts. Taking Legion Terminators over Varagyr is probably a good idea, especially if you can charge for WS5. But with Hvarl Red-Blade I would take Tartaros. Sweeping Advance is very useful! Just make sure they have a Speaker of the Dead and ride in a Spartan.

I would also very inclined to agree Tartaros is very good especially in a transport where templates can eat you. Russ Hvarl and aether rune armour allowing sweeping with the tartaros makes for a nasty death star.

[ronin_cse]

Hey I went ahead and made a PDF from the rules pages listed earlier if anyone wants a more convenient format: https://1drv.ms/b/s!AptnvuD7_G6DtsN8SwgnAGeMFxA_Wg

[depthcharge12]

I mean, the best way to make use of the SW traits is to use outflanking from all the scouting conferred by Hvarl.

 

HQ

Hvarl

 

Command squad in tartaros armor

+ dreadclaw DT

 

Elites

8 Veterans (machine destroyers)

+ 1 melta gun, 3 combi meltas, power fist

 

Contemptor-Mortis dreadnought

+kheres assault cannons

 

Troops

10 Grey Slayers (outflanking)

+ 2 combi plasma, bolters, 2 power weapons

 

10 Grey Slayers (outflanking)

+ 2 combi plasma, bolters, 2 power weapons

 

 

Heavy Support

Land Raider Proteus

+ hull lascannons, augury array

 

 

Outflank both of the GS squads, using the Proteus' augur array to help guarantee both units show up T2, and on the side they want as they have quasi acute senses. Use them to react to alpha strikers and eliminate them. They have some of the best counter attack to showing up from reserves.

 

Put the vets in the Proteus and scout them up.

[Runefyre]

I mean, the best way to make use of the SW traits is to use outflanking from all the scouting conferred by Hvarl.

 

HQ

Hvarl

 

Command squad in tartaros armor

+ dreadclaw DT

 

Elites

8 Veterans (machine destroyers)

+ 1 melta gun, 3 combi meltas, power fist

 

Contemptor-Mortis dreadnought

+kheres assault cannons

 

Troops

10 Grey Slayers (outflanking)

+ 2 combi plasma, bolters, 2 power weapons

 

10 Grey Slayers (outflanking)

+ 2 combi plasma, bolters, 2 power weapons

 

 

Heavy Support

Land Raider Proteus

+ hull lascannons, augury array

 

 

Outflank both of the GS squads, using the Proteus' augur array to help guarantee both units show up T2, and on the side they want as they have quasi acute senses. Use them to react to alpha strikers and eliminate them. They have some of the best counter attack to showing up from reserves.

 

Put the vets in the Proteus and scout them up.

Are you not taking a RoW? I feel like outflanking is best utilized in a Pale Hunter's cadre, because of the +1 reserves. That of course would disallow the dreadclaw.

 

I have a game set up tonight with my brother, who will be fielding word bearers (first game of the year!). Here's the (proxy) list I'll be taking using my 40k wolves models.

 

2000 points Pale Hunters

 

Hvarl

 

command squad (chainfists, phobos DT)

 

(2x) grey slayer squads (2x power weapons, aa, power fist)

 

veterans (10 dudes, aa, power fist, sniper/outflank)

 

Varagyr (6 dudes, 6 autocannons)

 

contempter cortus (kheres assault cannon)

 

Javelin

 

Javelin

 

Sicaran Venator

 

The vets and javelins will be outflanking (on a 2+) while Hvarl's raider/grey slayers will scout up to nab objectives/set up for charges. contemptor protects my backfield (he'll be bringing afew pods), and the sicaran venator does what it always does.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Slipstreams

[Baluc]

Who cares... no one takes compulsory troops its like holding the kindergarten kick boxing belt. 

 

My Grey slayers re basically down to stock in a rhino at this point. Any unit people take to clear objectives is going to wipe them anyway. I might actually drop the Rhino's and take 3 extra to get 5 points back into my list. 

 

Varagyr do make a decent star because they will almost always be hitting on 3's out of a spartan, sometimes its worth it over the bodies.

 

6 w/ fist and frost claw out of a spartan with frag launchers and 3 characters since I don't have anywhere else to put them anyway. 

 

That's 25 fist or claw attacks on '3' against every primarch unit in the game. And then your character attacks. Hitting on 4's should be avoided at all cost especially in a combat army. 

Edited February 14, 2017 by Slipstreams

[depthcharge12]

@Runefyre

Actually forgot about the RoW lol, but pale hunters would work. Why no dreadclaw? It's not immobile :D

 

I feel that the above list minimizes Alpha strikers so you won't lose your GS and HQ choices by having them run out in the open. A Leviathan with a grav bombard won't really scare your proteus, and it'll have to deal with the pocket lascannons from the melta vets.

 

It's effectively a "Beta Strike" list haha. Always anticipate your enemy's movements and counter them with your own. Play on your turf, not theirs.

[Baluc]

@Runefyre

Actually forgot about the RoW lol, but pale hunters would work. Why no dreadclaw? It's not immobile

 

I feel that the above list minimizes Alpha strikers so you won't lose your GS and HQ choices by having them run out in the open. A Leviathan with a grav bombard won't really scare your proteus, and it'll have to deal with the pocket lascannons from the melta vets.

 

It's effectively a "Beta Strike" list haha. Always anticipate your enemy's movements and counter them with your own. Play on your turf, not theirs.

Pale hunters no drop pods specifically 

[Runefyre]

 

@Runefyre

Actually forgot about the RoW lol, but pale hunters would work. Why no dreadclaw? It's not immobile

 

I feel that the above list minimizes Alpha strikers so you won't lose your GS and HQ choices by having them run out in the open. A Leviathan with a grav bombard won't really scare your proteus, and it'll have to deal with the pocket lascannons from the melta vets.

 

It's effectively a "Beta Strike" list haha. Always anticipate your enemy's movements and counter them with your own. Play on your turf, not theirs.

Pale hunters no drop pods specifically 

 

 

 

@Runefyre

Actually forgot about the RoW lol, but pale hunters would work. Why no dreadclaw? It's not immobile

 

I feel that the above list minimizes Alpha strikers so you won't lose your GS and HQ choices by having them run out in the open. A Leviathan with a grav bombard won't really scare your proteus, and it'll have to deal with the pocket lascannons from the melta vets.

 

It's effectively a "Beta Strike" list haha. Always anticipate your enemy's movements and counter them with your own. Play on your turf, not theirs.

Pale hunters no drop pods specifically 

 

More specifically "no drop pods of any kind". Really unfortunate but them's the breaks.

[Baluc]

I feel like people who are casually interested or curious about wolves and haven't actually tried to write an interest and engaging list beyond characters and Russ in a spartan... need to keep their opinions on the strength of the SW rules to themselves.  

[Jarkaira]

^ As Sun Tzu said:

 

"All warfare is based on deception.

 

Hence, when able to attack we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near.

 

Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

[ILikeItWhatIsIt]

I'm not convinced that if you are going to use Hvarl to scout that actually outflanking is a good use of that for Grey Slayers. They are an assault unit that if you outflank are not getting into close combat until turn 3 minimum. 10 stock bolters, maybe a couple of combi-weapons is not going to frighten much, even other comparable tactical units. And does the scout move on the table get you anything that a Rhino doesn't otherwise, as you can't charge either? Better off using either version on Seekers or Machine Killer Veterans to take out infantry or vehicles respectively. Or save the points on Hvarl.

 

I think if you're going to use Rhino's with Grey Slayers then moving forward turn 1, disembarking, flat outing the rhino to block LOS should still leave you in position for a turn 2 charge into something that has been weakened by Seekers, Vets or other fire support units. That's a fairly reliable turn 2 charge that I don't think Scout is going to make much more likely unless your opponent has completely ceded the middle ground or is so jetbike heavy you will need to stay mounted anyway. Or forget the Rhino altogether and run for it with 3 extra wounds as Baluc says, but then you're at greater risk from template weapons.

[Baluc]

Scout is good on Grey Slayers to keep them off the board and alive to take objectives.

[depthcharge12]

You can't flat out rhinos after disembarking, unless you mean disembarking in the scout phase.

 

Sure you don't get charges till turn 3, but what do want to assault turn 1? Most units are on the other side of the board, or are in a Spartan or what have you. Things like NLs won't even be able to deploy close enough to you...so I'm missing the point of why you want your mandatory, 3+ save units out in the open so fast?

 

This way they have a reliable way of deploying where they need to without wasting points on a transport. Combi plasma aren't a waste when you deploy right up next to an enemy unit and double tap into them. Baluc seemed to complain about GS not having anything able to fight contemptors or vehicles, and are just useless in the first place, so I'm trying to give you a way to counter that. S7 plasma can hurt rapiers, stop medusae from shooting for a turn, or hurt TEQs that might be running around the board. If a unit assaults you, then all the better. I don't know why people insist on making assault units get into combat T1 or two. Having played assault Legio lists for a while, there's some sense in seeing where your opponent moves, or making a concerted charge. Running GS up the board, as lamented above will get them killed by Scorpii, Thanatars, medusae, and whatever else your spammy opponent decides to run.

 

Scout move for the las proteus is essential, it lets you move into cover or get around whatever deployment your opponent used to counter you. That way, you won't have to move your first turn and lose a good portion of your shooting to snap shots. It also provides a reliable way to move up another close ranged shooty unit in the form of veterans, who also make the most out the SW assault rules as they are quite decent in assault.

 

If you're not utilizing GS to their full potential, then it doesn't make sense why you even want to play SW besides fluff because it will be no different than a vanilla list with lots of armor and MSU Rhino squads.

[Exark]

So here's a thought using Hvarl, its a 1750 list (5 points over at the moment as I'm not quite sure where to cut)

 

But anyway, I should note, it only works under the assumption that a command squad counts for our extra slot per 1000 points

 

Hvarl

 

Command Squad (Tartaros, Phobos, Power Fist on Standard Bearer and one Chosen)

Standard Bearer and 2 Chosen

 

 

Grey Slayers (Rhino with Multi Melta, bolters and AA/GFB on Huscarl)

 

Grey Slayers (Rhino with Multi Melta, bolters and AA/GFB on Huscarl)

 

Legion Outriders (TL PGs)

3 Bikes

 

Legion Outriders (TL PGs)

3 Bikes

 

Laser Vindicator

 

Laser Vindicator

 

Legion Medusa

 

 

Its a work in progress, (and will have trouble with AV14 imo), but thoughts? It allows you to ram two rhinos, a Phobos and two outrider squads down your opponents throat T1 (Target saturation) Yes I'm aware they can't assault, but its more the idea of providing threat saturation

[depthcharge12]

Not a bad list, but again, feels like a vanilla legion armor list that doesn't utilize the strengths of the SW.

 

I like that the rhinos can scout and use MM though, makes them miles more useful!!!