[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Robzilla]

There will be many movement shananigans to make sure some of our HQ can follow the Grey Slayers. As long as they stay in coherence, and don't run while the rest of the unit does so, they can assault just the same...this means one thing: THERE WILL BE A CONGA LINE OF DEATH!

 

Now, for our secondary and terciary HQs I might even think using some Vigilators just to get even more "in your face" with the enemy. With this you can maybe get 5 units Infiltrating with your forces (using our special HQ obviously).

 

Ran

Can't do the movement thing unfortunately. I checked in the BRB, and the whole unit elects to run, if they chose to. No leaving other models out. (as such, no charging)

 

It's only shooting that is done in a per model basis :(

 

Edit:

On a more positive note, yes... Whilst I am finding list building harder than usual, do you know what? I'm enjoying the challenge!

 

Id be a liar if I said that some things are just poorly thought out (where to put the characters, limiting all the rites of war, and the hot mess that is the frost weapon section) but I feel the positives are strong. (though if feel more positive if the termies had an extra wound ;))

 

It's harder to make a balanced list, but meh, I'm feeling all the happier when I spot a synergy.

My biggest hurdle at the moment is where to fit in the anti tank, which unfortunately is a bit tricky...

 

Regardless, people will find solutions. It may just be a significantly different style of list to what people normally use with other legions.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Robzilla

[TheWolfLord]

There will be many movement shananigans to make sure some of our HQ can follow the Grey Slayers. As long as they stay in coherence, and don't run while the rest of the unit does so, they can assault just the same...this means one thing: THERE WILL BE A CONGA LINE OF DEATH! 

 

Now, for our secondary and terciary HQs I might even think using some Vigilators just to get even more "in your face" with the enemy. With this you can maybe get 5 units Infiltrating with your forces (using our special HQ obviously). 

 

Ran

The FAQ on Wulfen and the Deathpack gave that tactic a huge no.

 

Only the Shooting and Charging option is available if joined by an IC and while that's not the preferred option it's a good option to have

[TheWolfLord]

I personally don't think the HQ tax is such an issue.

 

In games over 3k I may not want to run 4 HQs but up to 3k I can see me always wanting to run at least 1 Keeper of the Dead, Red-Blade and probably Geigor to run with my Grey Slayers

 

The compulsory HQ is a tax but a Centurion with Artificer Armour, Refractor Field and Great Frost Blade is only 95 points and is a good cheap brawler HQ. It means leaving out 1 of my preferred choices but in the right unit the Centurion with do a good job

[Nova_chron]

Honestly I would never have thought of command squads for the required HQ but the fluff possibility is great a jarl and his household

[sturguard]

Personally, I am still kind of dumbfounded on  how you could produce a book with custodes/1K Sons/Wolves and feel all three got the same attention rules/strength wise. I would be more understanding if just 1k Sons/Custodes came out together having similar power levels and the wolves were done in a past book. Has FW ever amended their works (kind of admitting, ah we messed up) and fixing rules/units?

 

There really isnt much to add as far as our tactical inflexibility or weaknesses so I won't restate the obvious.

 

I am intrigued why one poster referenced Outriders. I looked through their entry and nothing really stood out for me,  I remember asking myself why the bikes were so expensive, especially compared to the jetbikes with the multimeltas (yes they are expensive but at least everyone of them has a MM and a jetbike and 2+ save).

 

Also with how brutal assualt is in 30k (no Tau, IG etc) how would you use hit and run effectively? I would think for the majority of our units either they would die in combat or wiped out the squad, so when would they actually have models to leave combat. Maybe just an IC deathstar?

[Nova_chron]

Yeah they have revised units and rules in I think the most recent red books so there is hope and we can always pester FW lol

[Baluc]

I personally don't think the HQ tax is such an issue.

 

In games over 3k I may not want to run 4 HQs but up to 3k I can see me always wanting to run at least 1 Keeper of the Dead, Red-Blade and probably Geigor to run with my Grey Slayers

 

The compulsory HQ is a tax but a Centurion with Artificer Armour, Refractor Field and Great Frost Blade is only 95 points and is a good cheap brawler HQ. It means leaving out 1 of my preferred choices but in the right unit the Centurion with do a good job

 

I don't think I've ever taken more than 2 hqs in 30k... Frequently I only take one, because HQ is one of the worst point for point slots available. Wolves compound on this because all the units they want us to take can't take an Hq with them. Or, you must take Special Characters. Imagine for a second you want to take an artificer armour Praetor because you think its fluff and cool, what do you do with him? He can't join Grey Slayers, he can't join Deathsworn, if you put him with any Terminator unit you need a spartan.

 

This all ignores if you have a treadhead friend who wants to use the Armoured breakthrough RoW FW provided him. 

 

Lets assume Red-Blade is Praetor. If you don't want a spartan the only unit he can join and ride in a transport is a Command sqd. Varagyr could have started at 3 models, and possibly would have been a decent unit. 

 

I really want to be positive I love space wolves, I've been buying, building and painting them for twenty years. But I really don't know how to make an interesting list that can actually play 40k.

[Robzilla]

Personally, I am still kind of dumbfounded on how you could produce a book with custodes/1K Sons/Wolves and feel all three got the same attention rules/strength wise. I would be more understanding if just 1k Sons/Custodes came out together having similar power levels and the wolves were done in a past book. Has FW ever amended their works (kind of admitting, ah we messed up) and fixing rules/units?

 

There really isnt much to add as far as our tactical inflexibility or weaknesses so I won't restate the obvious.

 

I am intrigued why one poster referenced Outriders. I looked through their entry and nothing really stood out for me, I remember asking myself why the bikes were so expensive, especially compared to the jetbikes with the multimeltas (yes they are expensive but at least everyone of them has a MM and a jetbike and 2+ save).

 

Also with how brutal assualt is in 30k (no Tau, IG etc) how would you use hit and run effectively? I would think for the majority of our units either they would die in combat or wiped out the squad, so when would they actually have models to leave combat. Maybe just an IC deathstar?

Its more the utility of outriders, in my opinion. I rarely consider them for other legions, but for wolves, what's not to like?

 

Scout for outflank, or a 12 inch move at the start of the game (plus whatever character is with them) two attacks each (BP and ccw standard), better ability to resist damage (jink and T5), and access to meltabombs on a mobile platform.

 

Sure you're not going to murder a bunch of close combat specialists, but you will give a lot of units something to worry about.

Consider:

 

Forge lord (as we all need hq units and a way to get them upfield)

Bike

Great frost blade

Rad grenades.

 

6 outriders

Melta bombs

2x power weapon

Sergeant with fist.

 

370 points.

 

For me at least, I see a lot of merit in such a unit, when combined with a lot of other scouting or aggressive units.

 

I see a lot of merit in popping a seize breaker with our heavy support jetbikes too, for similar defensive reasons (speed resilience etc) but less so re: combat threat.

[Nova_chron]

I understand the feeling I just keep.telling myself to hold back judgement until I've gotten some games in I know I'll be taking some losses at first especially as my usual opponent plays a strong iron fire list but I'm sure as more people get the book and play around with lists we sill hit a stride that we can feel good about

[sturguard]

One telling piece of information- 59 pages of 1K Sons tactica, 17 pages of SW tactica.

 

370 pts is an awful lot for 6 bikes and an IC. Shoot thats almost the cost of a spartan and the IC, at least with the jetbikes with the multimeltas you get the added benefit of tank busting, which is a real problem for us. In this capacity I think the Forge Lord is simply tanking hits. If you use the first RoW the unit would have hit and run which depending on how many hits the FL can tank might be useful. Can the FL have the Aether Armor (the armor that adds +1 wound?). Does that make them 3 wound or 4?

[Nova_chron]

Yes he can it's in the little box blurb on the second priests of fenris page

[TheWolfLord]

 

I personally don't think the HQ tax is such an issue.

In games over 3k I may not want to run 4 HQs but up to 3k I can see me always wanting to run at least 1 Keeper of the Dead, Red-Blade and probably Geigor to run with my Grey Slayers

The compulsory HQ is a tax but a Centurion with Artificer Armour, Refractor Field and Great Frost Blade is only 95 points and is a good cheap brawler HQ. It means leaving out 1 of my preferred choices but in the right unit the Centurion with do a good job

 

 

I don't think I've ever taken more than 2 hqs in 30k... Frequently I only take one, because HQ is one of the worst point for point slots available. Wolves compound on this because all the units they want us to take can't take an Hq with them. Or, you must take Special Characters. Imagine for a second you want to take an artificer armour Praetor because you think its fluff and cool, what do you do with him? He can't join Grey Slayers, he can't join Deathsworn, if you put him with any Terminator unit you need a spartan.

This all ignores if you have a treadhead friend who wants to use the Armoured breakthrough RoW FW provided him. 

 

Lets assume Red-Blade is Praetor. If you don't want a spartan the only unit he can join and ride in a transport is a Command sqd. Varagyr could have started at 3 models, and possibly would have been a decent unit. 

 

I really want to be positive I love space wolves, I've been buying, building and painting them for twenty years. But I really don't know how to make an interesting list that can actually play 40k.

The only unit that forbids IC from joining are the Deathsworn but they are still allowed Keepers of the Dead.

 

A Praetor still can run with Grey Slayers, the unit would still be allowed to fire their Bolters and charge and there will be many occasions you don't need to run and charge.

 

Regarding Red-Blade, you aren't limited to dedicated transports though. There are many good transport options available as Fast, Heavy or even LoW choices.

 

Geigor is a great HQ for Grey Slayers, we're lucky to have a special with Warriors Mettle.

 

Keepers of the Dead are good in nearly every unit and are only limited due to no Jump Pack or Bike option.

 

Red-Blade is good all round, a very Killy HQ but he's a great force multiplier with his Warlord Trait and scouting buff.

 

Yes I'm the first to admit there's some clever thinking required for using HQs will our units but it's far from terrible. In the majority of cases you don't want to take the basic dedicated transport options but unless you're playing a 4K+ game you should have spare slots to take things like Stormeagles, Assault Rams, Land Raiders, Spartans and even SHs like Mastodons, Thunderhawks and Stormbirds.

 

Our ability to deny infiltration and threaten lots of first turn charges is going to really put pressure on your opponents deployment options.

 

We need to play test and build tactics, it does no good to become despondent before even rolling any dice.

[Leman Russ SW]

How about running all your Grey Slayers in a Storm Lord?

[Runefyre]

How about running all your Grey Slayers in a Storm Lord?

Waaaaay too many eggs in one basket.

[Runefyre]

One telling piece of information- 59 pages of 1K Sons tactica, 17 pages of SW tactica.

I only see 15 pages of Tsons tactica.

 

Let's stop comparing the Wolves to the Thousand sons, 'cause let's face it, they're broken by far the strongest legion rule-wise. Every other legion will struggle against them as much as we will.

 

If you take the Tsons rules out of the pictures, we're actually not that bad off. I've seen World Eaters lists that have almost no transports do quite well. If varagyr and casters of Runes can get a buff I'll be happy.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Runefyre

[Baluc]

Grey Slayers are an assault unit. They don't even come with bolters, your assertion is disenginous at best. 

 

You are limited to Transports. He is in terminator armour which limites him to KAP, Dreadclaw, LR, Spartan. He can only be in a LR or DR with 8 power armoured models or 4 terminator models. Which means he can only Vets, Seekers, or recon marines. He can go into a KAP or Spartan if he wants to join any other unit. That is be definition limited. 

 

We're "lucky" to have an hq that lets a unit use its special rule... that is a disturbing outlook on life.

 

So unlike say a Primus medicea, or a Chaplian who can join any unit in the legion armour, he is limited to yet again Deathsworn, vets, or recon marines if you want a transport other than a Spartan

 

Where are these spare points? Write a list 2.5 I doubt you fit anything you mentioned in to it.

 

And, no its not going to put pressure, you can't disembark from a transport during scout. So to charge in your own first turn you must be on foot. Which means you get 6+6+1+2d6-1 assuming you have no characters in the grey slayers unit. Which is 19" assuming there is no terrain it drops to a maximum of 17" but more likely 15" if you have to charge through cover. And even when you get there you are over geared tactical squad, what are you charging you don't even have an apothercary. 

[Ranwulf]

This post was closed before guys. Disagree, but keep it polite. 

 

Ran

[Robzilla]

I think there needs to be some perspective here...

 

Lets for a moment take all issues of synergy aside, and look at some scenarios here -

A standard grey slayers unit can be a serious threat to just about any non-dedicated cc unit in the game. Any.

 

What can't it threaten easily? Generally, Enemy elite units, terminators, and hard hq units. They will struggle with dreads too, I'd imagine.

 

That leaves the vast majority of units in the game that they provide a very significant threat to. Can am assault squad, or a tactical squad say the same?

 

There are a wealth of issues that go with this mind - transport, protecting the units etc, but you had those problems with tactical squads and the like anyway.

 

Fully tooled veterans or grey slayers? The slayers win hands down. And veterans are normally quite an appealing option.

 

Yes they can't handle ranged threats - so find another component in your list to handle that.

 

But just looking at some numbers here, you can put three squads if the following down for around about 900pts.

 

20 grey slayers

7 power weapons

2 power fists

Huskarl

Great frost blade

Artificier armour

Melta bombs

 

Lets assume you are also using redblade?

 

You now have 60 scouting models upfield.

 

Sure, a fair bit will get shot up... But you are fast, get a head start, and *cant* be ignored. Fill the rest of the list out to deal with other scary units (terminators, tank hinting etc)

 

I'm not saying that foot slogging with the above 'core' is the best idea in the world, but you can't deny they are an effecfive unit at providing pressure.

 

Provided the rest of your army is also geared up to apply pressure fast.

 

One *problem* with the army I really can't defend is the lack of transport for the many hq units. It's a bit of a pain, and does prove to be problematic for certain builds (orbital assault, armoured spearhead etc)

 

To be fair, I've always thought a land raider should be capacity 12, but hey ho...

Edited February 10, 2017 by Robzilla

[Baluc]

What units ARE you beating up? Tacticals? That kind of investment in troops seems pointless. People specifically build lists to not include tacticals.

 

I'm getting the distint impression that the SW army list is like the 1st or 2nd draft. Why don't Custodes or 1ksons have this level of synergy or structural issues? Its not even about power level anymore. I literally can't build a list to use models that they list under the space wolves section on the FW website. 

[Robzilla]

What units ARE you beating up? Tacticals? That kind of investment in troops seems pointless. People specifically build lists to not include tacticals.

 

I'm getting the distint impression that the SW army list is like the 1st or 2nd draft. Why don't Custodes or 1ksons have this level of synergy or structural issues? Its not even about power level anymore. I literally can't build a list to use models that they list under the space wolves section on the FW website.

What aren't you beating up though? Terminators dreadnaughts and primarchs?

 

With this load out (ignoring delivery issues for now):

 

20 grey slayers

7 power weapons

2 power fists

Huskarl

Great frost blade

Artificier armour

Melta bombs

 

 

Even one of those units make a massive dent in one of the harder units in the game, like suzerians.

 

(with assumed clever positioning, and assuming power axes, the unit kills approx 8 suzerians, taking 5 casualties in return on the charge. Take more casualties(10) if they in turn are charged but still... Fair trade I'd say).

 

Heck, against average terminators, (7 men, cataracts with powerfists. Fair representation of a squad?) the wolves should do about 8-9 wounds. (assuming everyone gets to attack)

Terminators do 10-13 wounds, depending on the charge.

 

* all maths approximate, and done with ideal test conditions.

 

Grey slayers aren't the toughest, but they can punch above their weight.

Other legions can and will have advantages in combat (night Lords, world eaters) or elite units that can take them down too, but for what they do, grey slayers are cheap and effective.

 

Hidden power fists and melta bombs help with dreads too.

 

I'd be interested to see how a unit of combat shields and power axes would fare in combat actually. Or even just a smattering though the front lines to absorb the first few casualties in combat.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Robzilla

[Runefyre]

Keep in mind apothecaries (as they are not independent characters) can still be attached to deathsworn, giving them a significant boost in survivability.

[Frater Cornelius]

We did a 2000 game today and I took 2 sets of 15 GS, amongst other things, and Hvarl was in the mix. My opponent was White Scars. The verdict was far worse than expected. While I lost the game by one point (because he had one single scoring model left, otherwise it would've been a draw), it was very close, but it only began to even out towards the end, but the game was carried by non-specific units like Outriders, Contemptor Cortus, Sicaran Battle Tank and even the Phobos was very annoying to him.

 

The Grey Slayers were no more after his second turn (bar one last guy who hid in terrain to get line breaker). I tried my best to use the Land Raider for cover and opted for night fighting, which went a long way of keeping the Plasma Outriders at bay. However, all the HB forcing those 3+ saves really took their toll and his Praetor did the rest.

Hvarl and his unit also bit the dust to his Sicaran and Plasma Outriders. The issue was that despite the scout move and transport, they were unable to catch his command squad and I needed them to fight his other bike units they could reach.

 

Without access to more HS and Artillery (I was playing Pale Hunters) I was also lacking ways to make him jink reliably.

 

All in all, Wolves have not done it for me yet. But it was only one game and I will try more. However, I feel mech, especially scouting mech, will be superior, because foot GS are just worse World Eaters.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Immersturm

[Ranwulf]

Keep in mind apothecaries (as they are not independent characters) can still be attached to deathsworn, giving them a significant boost in survivability.

Does that mean you can attach apotecarys to Grey Slayers and they keep Warrior's Mantle?

 

Ran

[Baluc]

 

Keep in mind apothecaries (as they are not independent characters) can still be attached to deathsworn, giving them a significant boost in survivability.

Does that mean you can attach apotecarys to Grey Slayers and they keep Warrior's Mantle?

 

Ran

 

No. Its a movement rule.

[Slips]

One telling piece of information- 59 pages of 1K Sons tactica, 17 pages of SW tactica.

 

Check again because I count 15 TS Pages to the SW 18.

 

 

Otherwise, At this stage, I'm pretty fed up with constantly getting reports about this topic. So this is literally the last warning:

 

Keep it on topic, keep it respectful - if you can't do either, don't even bother posting.