[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[SW1]

Can you attach an Apothicary to a 20 man GS blob squad?

 

Got hold of the black book number 1 and it seems to only list legion squads and doesn't give options to attach to other types of squads like Grey Slayers.

 

I was about to start converting up some mk7 ones into something closer to 30k with head swaps to mk4 with the bionic bits and possibly gs the knees. But now it doesn't seem I'll be able to use them. Does the little red books change this?

Edited February 26, 2017 by SW1

[Slips]

Betrayals entry for apothecaries is VERY outdated. Use the one found in LA:AODL

[Purge the Daemon]

Can you attach an Apothicary to a 20am GS blob squad?

 

Got hold of the black book number 1 and it seems to only list legion squads and doesn't give options to attach to other types of squads like Grey Slayers.

 

I was about to start converting up some mk7 ones into something closer to 30k with head swaps to mk4 with the bionic bits and possibly gs the knees. But now it doesn't seem I'll be able to use them. Does the little red books change this?

Yeah the Red book changed it as it became to many units to list so any Jon terminator unit is fine. Though an apothecary won't have warriors mettle.

[SW1]

Was thinking more for a combat oriented squad rather than all bolter squad. :p

[Purge the Daemon]

Was thinking more for a combat oriented squad rather than all bolter squad. :p

Yeah but it also means you can't run and charge either.

[Ranwulf]

All right, after a new game I got to retest the same list of before. Me and an Imperial Fists player fought against Word Bearers and Night Lords. Even though we killed so many of them, we lost by a few points. 
 
Few points:
-Even though the IF lost 700 points with a terrible scatter dice deepstrike, we still killed more than the enemy. 
-Instead of outflanking I decided to infiltrate (Edit:actually redeploy with scout) with three squads, the Deathsworn, a big Grey Slayer force and Russ Grey Slayer with Shields. 
-Russ is a beast, but he really shouldn't fight two primarchs. He almost killed Curze, but he managed to run away. Then he charged (instead of risking being charged) Lorgar and his squad of happyness (Gal Vorbak, Erebus and a Medicae - all with Invisibility). Needless to say, Invisibility is really impossible to face against, even with Russ, since Lorgar cast on himself a Psyker power that allows him to rerolls (hit, wound and saves). Russ therefore died to Lorgar in a challenge. 
-Deathsworn with a Priest is a great regular marines killers. One squad with 10 guys and priest killed two terrorsquads, and the last thunderhammer finished Curze last wound.
-Grey Slayers are great, but they are still Marines. They can still die to Raptor Squads, and heavy units. However, they managed to kill an entire terror squad unit, and being able to Walk, Run and Charge made them HIGHLY dangerous. Footslogging with them worked quite well, but then again I faced no artillery. 
-Lightning more than payed his points - destroyed a Spartan Tank (of the word bearer) - a took a few HP from a Dreadnought and a Rhino.
-Sicaran Venator Tank was also very efficient for his points.
 
TL;DR - all in all? It would be a very appropriate victory the Imperial players if we didn't lose the terminator squad, because we killed almost all of their table.
 
Photos:

Word Bearers deploy:

 

 

Deathsworn and the Terrorsquads:

 

Russ and Curze stare at each other - and Curze loses his charge!

Big Grey Slayer squad versus Terror Squad:

Curze SCURRYING AWAY

Grey Slayers after slaughtering the Terror Squad:

Few things lasted from Russ squad:

Russ prepares to charge Lorgar happy squad:

F'ing INVISIBILITY

 

 

 

Ran

 

Edit:Not Space Wolves, we fought as a Space Wolves AGAINST the Night Lords.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Ranwulf

[Jackalwolf]

Nice. How did you infiltrate your units though? Red blade only confers scout.

[Ranwulf]

Nice. How did you infiltrate your units though? Red blade only confers scout.

Sorry, I meant redepoly with scout.

 

Ran

[Runefyre]

It's refreshing to see someone doing well with our rules, as terribly written as they might be.

 

I would like to point out though that Lorgar DOESN'T have access to telepathy, and hence CAN'T be invisible unless a librarian casts it on him.

[Balthamal]

^^ This

 

Last red book changed Lorgar to having Divination/Telekinesis not Telepathy because Invis Lorgar and 10 Gal Vorbak isn't fun

 

Was thinking more for a combat oriented squad rather than all bolter squad.

Yeah but it also means you can't run and charge either.

 

 

Why? Apothecaries aren't independent characters so are conferred the rules of the unit they're joining

[Ranwulf]

It's refreshing to see someone doing well with our rules, as terribly written as they might be.

 

I would like to point out though that Lorgar DOESN'T have access to telepathy, and hence CAN'T be invisible unless a librarian casts it on him.

One of his Apotecharies got Invisibility, because of his Burning Lore special rules. And I think our rules may be clunky but I felt they work as I fought in game.

 

Ran

[SW1]

^^ This

 

Last red book changed Lorgar to having Divination/Telekinesis not Telepathy because Invis Lorgar and 10 Gal Vorbak isn't fun

 

 

Was thinking more for a combat oriented squad rather than all bolter squad. :P

 

Yeah but it also means you can't run and charge either.

 

Why? Apothecaries aren't independent characters so are conferred the rules of the unit they're joining

Is this correct?

 

If so I'll be converting up a few. ;)

[Runefyre]

I don't see stating anywhere that apothecaries gain the USR's of a unit they join, just that they must join a unit entirely comprised of infantry models with the legiones astartes special rule and cannot voluntarily leave a unit they join.

 

So it'd be nice if Balthamal could explain his reasoning, maybe there's an FAQ I missed or something.

[Caillum]

Warrior's Mettle specifies models with the special rule gain the benefits. It doesn't confer to attached Apothecaries. It's why Geigor is actually a decent HQ choice.

[Balthamal]

Apothecaries joining Terror Squads get to Infiltrate so why wouldn't ones joining Grey Slayers benefit in the same way? It's in the rule book explicitly stating that ICs joining a unit with a special rule that they do not have do not confer it to that IC in the same way that the IC does not confer special rules on the unit unless expressly stated otherwise, such as Siege Breakers giving tank hunter to the heavy weapons of a unit they join for example or an IC in Cataphractii TDA prevents any unit he joins from running while he is a part of it

[Runefyre]

Basically what Caillum said. the wording of Warrior's Mettle is such that it precludes joined characters (of any type) from gaining the rule.

 

If FW had done more than okay this lunch-break level rule-set, they'd maybe have thought to make Warrior's Mettle a special upgrade for any SW unit with LA:SW. Something like 15 points for an independent character and 5-10 points-per-model for regular units. Then give Red-blade and Russ Warrior's Mettle.

 

Because as it is, Warrior's Mettle feels more like a restriction than a benefit, as I can't add any support characters (that actually allow Grey Slayers to compete with other legion counterparts, such as feel-no-pain and preferred enemy) without losing the ability I lost Fury of the Legion to gain.

[Withershadow]

Apothecaries joining Terror Squads get to Infiltrate so why wouldn't ones joining Grey Slayers benefit in the same way? It's in the rule book explicitly stating that ICs joining a unit with a special rule that they do not have do not confer it to that IC in the same way that the IC does not confer special rules on the unit unless expressly stated otherwise, such as Siege Breakers giving tank hunter to the heavy weapons of a unit they join for example or an IC in Cataphractii TDA prevents any unit he joins from running while he is a part of it

Because the way the USRs are worded. With Infiltrate, it's if "at least one model in the unit", with the Warrior's mettle, it only applies to models with that rule.

 

Really, Apothecaries for FNP is overrated in many cases unless you've already maxed out the unit's model count.

[Sete]

So SW grey slayers need 10 minimum? Shame :/

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Oh it sucks, and sucks a bit more when we realize we lose Warriors Mettle (you know, the special rule we trade Fury of the Legion for) if we add any character other than Not-Bjorn to the unit Edited February 28, 2017 by Wolf Lord Kieran

[Sete]

Ouch.

If SW worked with small units I would definitely roll with them, crusader Squad like!

Don't like to be forced to take horde marines.

[Lord Blackwood]

Toying around with Pale hunters  is making me a touch frustrated. 

I  honestly think it can work .. I  really do 

I  also think in order for it to work I need to run  2 planes 2 raiders and a Spartan  Minimum ... which makes me a touch less  pleased about it.  I  am working off the principle that  hit and run can be conferred by  independent characters to the one terminator unit in the list , but jeez .. its rough man 

Trying to take Russ and keep the list coherent is difficult. 

I almost find myself gravitating toward  bringing my knights to handle most of the anti tank  duties.  

Anyone having better luck trying to sort something out with Pale hunters? 

[Purge the Daemon]

Toying around with Pale hunters is making me a touch frustrated.

 

I honestly think it can work .. I really do

 

I also think in order for it to work I need to run 2 planes 2 raiders and a Spartan Minimum ... which makes me a touch less pleased about it. I am working off the principle that hit and run can be conferred by independent characters to the one terminator unit in the list , but jeez .. its rough man

 

Trying to take Russ and keep the list coherent is difficult.

 

I almost find myself gravitating toward bringing my knights to handle most of the anti tank duties.

 

Anyone having better luck trying to sort something out with Pale hunters?

Nope you are quite spot on here. I struggle for points and most lists I come up with simply can't kill things, I'm strongly considering going no right of War or Onslaught Detachment as either is better.

[Runefyre]

Honestly I'm coming to the same conclusion. It's really frustrating that I can't come up with a list that utilises the buffs from the RoW without using a loophole (because let's face it, terminators are probably the only infantry other than vets that are worth taking in serious numbers).

 

It just makes my heart sink when I look at all the strong and easy to create combos that White Scars, Dark Angels, Sons of Horus, Thousand Sons, etc. can do, and some of those legions don't even have their frickin' special units.

 

I'm getting more and more fed up with our rules. They just feel so frickin' weak compared to everyone elses because all our (poorly written and weak) buffs center around infantry (and JUST un-augmented infantry, 'cause f-u terminators).

 

I honestly have no clue how anyone in the FW rules team can make an honest comparison between Tsons and Wolves rulesets, they just don't compare.

 

And Russ is impossible to fit in a list, because he's a huge point-sink and all he feels like is a big beatstick and nothing more. magnus is a huge beatstick (better than Russ, 'cause Tsons) AND gives out all kinds of candy to his army. It makes him feel like a true general.

 

It's just a travesty that Russ needs the permission of Red-blade to Scout (and by extension, outflank).

[Baluc]

Its sad that everyone has essentially ended up where I was day 1. I actually was hoping I was the wrong one.

[Runefyre]

I'm not giving up hope, but I really, REALLY want FW to FAQ the glaringly obvious discrepancies.

 

Basic things like Frost Weapons, and an additional wound for Varagyr.