[HH1.0] 30k Space Wolves tactics

[Charlo]

Yeah... A Kharybdis is a drop pod.

 

So is a claw.

 

So is a legion pod.

 

So is a dread pod.

[Baluc]

Purge the daemon is right, there is little point comparing them since this is what we have. IMO I think Grey Slayers are best as a support assault unit, it makes use of enough of their rules that they will edge out other units, but also keeps their scope narrow enough that they won't often be outmatched.

 

In terms of heavy assault there are really only three options it seems to me. Praeven with robots, Praetor, Centurion, Forgelord, CMD sqd Jetbikes or Russ and the Wolf Kin in a Dreadclaw. Once you get over the 400-500 point combat unit your army really suffers.

 

I'm curious about he Armoured Spearhead list, but a) I don't have the spare cash for all those MkIIB Raiders, and it doesn't seem very interesting to play after the first game or two. It also does't restrict Dreadclaws to the best of my knowledge. 

[Purge the Daemon]

Purge the daemon is right, there is little point comparing them since this is what we have. IMO I think Grey Slayers are best as a support assault unit, it makes use of enough of their rules that they will edge out other units, but also keeps their scope narrow enough that they won't often be outmatched.

 

In terms of heavy assault there are really only three options it seems to me. Praeven with robots, Praetor, Centurion, Forgelord, CMD sqd Jetbikes or Russ and the Wolf Kin in a Dreadclaw. Once you get over the 400-500 point combat unit your army really suffers.

 

I'm curious about he Armoured Spearhead list, but a) I don't have the spare cash for all those MkIIB Raiders, and it doesn't seem very interesting to play after the first game or two. It also does't restrict Dreadclaws to the best of my knowledge.

Russ and everything gets ridiculously expensive even at 3k primarily because it's a natural place for your HQ choices.

 

I've been playing around with 5 terminators + Hvarl + Preist+ forge lord (needed another HQ and rad grenades are at least useful) + Russ + puppies and this unit is 1350 it's almost 1800 with a spartan.

 

I might just consider running Russ in a storm eagle with puppies and my HQ choices. Since pale Hunters won't let me drop pod.

 

In 3k points I guess I'll be running a storm eagle fire raptor and 2 Xiphons. Hope my opponents bring no AA I guess.

[sturguard]

Yeah... A Kharybdis is a drop pod.

 

So is a claw.

 

So is a legion pod.

 

So is a dread pod.

Legion Drop Pod, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, Anviullus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod

 

compared to Kharybdis Assault Claw

[Ave_Dominus_Nox]

 

Legion Drop Pod, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, Anviullus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod

 

compared to Kharybdis Assault Claw

 

They all have the Drop Pod Assault special rule.

[Runefyre]

I think it's a fool's errand to try and argue that a kharybdis isn't a drop pod. Doesn't change the fact that Pale Hunter's is way too restrictive for the close combat playstyle it encourages.

 

So I didn't get much feedback in the Army lists section, so I thought I'd post my list here and see if I have better luck.

 

2,500 points Space Wolves: Pale Hunters Right Rite of War

 

HQ

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, 3x chainfists, phobos DT)

 

Speaker of the Dead (great frost blade, goes with a unit of vets)

 

Centurion (AA, Refractor field, Great Frost Blade, goes with Hvarl)

 

Troops

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Elites

 

Legion Veteran Squad (5x combi-weapons, Sergeant: AA, power weapon, Rhino DT)

 

Legion Veteran Squad (5x combi-weapons, Sergeant: AA, power weapon, Rhino DT)

 

Legion Veteran Squad (5x combi-weapons, Sergeant: AA, power weapon, Rhino DT)

 

Legion Apothecary detachment (2x apothecaries, artificer armour)

 

Fast Attack

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Xiphon Pattern Interceptor (ground gracking auguries)

 

Heavy Support

 

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (Hellstrike missiles)

[sturguard]

Pale Hunter doesn't restrict units with the drop pod assault rule.

 

Plenty of units have the deep strike rule from terminators to assault Marines to fliers, it doesn't mean they are all monstrous creatures or fliers on jump infantry.

 

I'm not saying you can't connect the dots and say it's a drop pod but I think by RAW it's not, at least according to its unit entry.

[sturguard]

Runefyre, I look at your list and there isn't much that's worrisome. You don't have much of any long range shooting, most of your list is just power armored Marines and rhinos which are easy to kill. One heavy piece of armor, the LR should be easily countered as it's the only heavy armor you have and the gunship I would just ignore. Your hammer unit isn't very big but costs more than Russ, or close to, but isn't near as scary. No offense. That is just a big problem with Pale Hunter, land raiders aren't that scary and if you take a bunch of them you have no points left for infantry. Course lots of guys know more than me.

[Baluc]

I think it's a fool's errand to try and argue that a kharybdis isn't a drop pod. Doesn't change the fact that Pale Hunter's is way too restrictive for the close combat playstyle it encourages.

 

So I didn't get much feedback in the Army lists section, so I thought I'd post my list here and see if I have better luck.

 

2,500 points Space Wolves: Pale Hunters Right Rite of War

 

HQ

 

Hvarl Red-blade

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, 3x chainfists, phobos DT)

 

Speaker of the Dead (great frost blade, goes with a unit of vets)

 

Centurion (AA, Refractor field, Great Frost Blade, goes with Hvarl)

 

Troops

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, Rhino DT)

 

Elites

 

Legion Veteran Squad (5x combi-weapons, Sergeant: AA, power weapon, Rhino DT)

 

Legion Veteran Squad (5x combi-weapons, Sergeant: AA, power weapon, Rhino DT)

 

Legion Veteran Squad (5x combi-weapons, Sergeant: AA, power weapon, Rhino DT)

 

Legion Apothecary detachment (2x apothecaries, artificer armour)

 

Fast Attack

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Xiphon Pattern Interceptor (ground gracking auguries)

 

Heavy Support

 

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (Hellstrike missiles)

 

Too extreme msu for me. 

 

For Pale Hunter there are only a few Heavy support options I would consider. Fire raptor is not one of them. For me its Malcador squadrons or Sky Slayer Jetbike Squadrons

[Purge the Daemon]

Having spent the last few days working on just a pale hunters list here are my issues.

 

I run out of slots I find I always use my 1 heavy support all 3 fast attack am forced to max out on hqs due to LA SW. Then I have my core Troops and I still have points left. The problem is in this row Elites suck you have no rapiers, no viable dreadnoughts and the only real remaining choice is terminators but nothing to gain more firepower.

 

Like it's problematic they basically killed off 5 of the foc choices by making none of the Elites viable and restricting heavy support.

[Runefyre]

-snip-

 

Too extreme msu for me. 

 

For Pale Hunter there are only a few Heavy support options I would consider. Fire raptor is not one of them. For me its Malcador squadrons or Sky Slayer Jetbike Squadrons

 

I'm curious Baluc what issues you have with MSU? And why you think a Fire Raptor isn't a good choice?

 

How would you improve the list in your opinion?

[Baluc]

MSU needs to be heavy shooting because of the way combat works in 40K. It worked in fantasy in a charger goes first system because doing damage prevented taking damage. In 30k in most case you are fighting people who are doing damage at the same time that you are. So even winning an assault could cost you the unit. That is how you end up with heavy shooting MSU, because you can do damage by risking as few points as possible. 2x Land speeders in like 120 points, and shoots like its 240 points, so it does damage and even if the return fire destroys it the loss is manageable. 

 

Infantry for the most part have a 12-14" zone of influence, which is the smallest in the game. Making them vulnerable to all the horrors of warfare in the 31st millennium. Removing 2-7 power armoured bodies is the attack threshold of nearly every unit taken in the game. Now if the Legions had Razorbacks it might be more viable since you have long range options, while you stay in the tank. You could try missile launcher/6 combi-plasma vets in rhinos to emulate that effect but it would be pretty ass over all I feel. 

 

The Fire Raptor struggles because of the reasons most flyers struggle to influence the game after they come on. One 90 degree turn if you zoom won't give you a ton of targets and being a skimmer is kind of weak for 230 pt model with 12 armour. Its not bad I own one, its pretty flexible and will almost always have a target when it arrives, its just for me behind #1 Malcadors, and #2 Sky Slayers for the coveted 1 Heavy support slot in Pale Hunter, like the Sicaran variants.

 

@Purge the Daemon

 

I was considering using Legion Dreads as gun platforms but the price point on the anti tank weapons is shocking, and I'd need something like 6 dreads before I was really comfortable. 

[Purge the Daemon]

MSU needs to be heavy shooting because of the way combat works in 40K. It worked in fantasy in a charger goes first system because doing damage prevented taking damage. In 30k in most case you are fighting people who are doing damage at the same time that you are. So even winning an assault could cost you the unit. That is how you end up with heavy shooting MSU, because you can do damage by risking as few points as possible. 2x Land speeders in like 120 points, and shoots like its 240 points, so it does damage and even if the return fire destroys it the loss is manageable.

 

Infantry for the most part have a 12-14" zone of influence, which is the smallest in the game. Making them vulnerable to all the horrors of warfare in the 31st millennium. Removing 2-7 power armoured bodies is the attack threshold of nearly every unit taken in the game. Now if the Legions had Razorbacks it might be more viable since you have long range options, while you stay in the tank. You could try missile launcher/6 combi-plasma vets in rhinos to emulate that effect but it would be pretty ass over all I feel.

 

The Fire Raptor struggles because of the reasons most flyers struggle to influence the game after they come on. One 90 degree turn if you zoom won't give you a ton of targets and being a skimmer is kind of weak for 230 pt model with 12 armour. Its not bad I own one, its pretty flexible and will almost always have a target when it arrives, its just for me behind #1 Malcadors, and #2 Sky Slayers for the coveted 1 Heavy support slot in Pale Hunter, like the Sicaran variants.

 

@Purge the Daemon

 

I was considering using Legion Dreads as gun platforms but the price point on the anti tank weapons is shocking, and I'd need something like 6 dreads before I was really comfortable.

The non heavy support dreads are just so incredibly lack luster without transport. A deredro at least helps make a good firebase but is awful use of a single heavy support slot. I'm not sure I rate sky Slayers as the only heavy support maybe they are good but I dunno multimelas can be very hit or miss and if you jink just rip.

 

I'm not sure how I feel about Malcador I feel they can be good but are also a cluster of a unit and I land up spending way to much on them and just not having an army, I also feel they don't bring enough anti armour.

[Baluc]

As super heavy vehicles, Malcadors ignore many of the restrictions on Tank Squadrons, Scale with your army, 1 at 2k, 2 and 2.5, and 3 at 3k. And, don't use up a LoW slot. Them and Dreads is basically the only theoretical I can think of that can make Pale Hunter work. But like I said Dreads seem like a bust. 

[Purge the Daemon]

As super heavy vehicles, Malcadors ignore many of the restrictions on Tank Squadrons, Scale with your army, 1 at 2k, 2 and 2.5, and 3 at 3k. And, don't use up a LoW slot. Them and Dreads is basically the only theoretical I can think of that can make Pale Hunter work. But like I said Dreads seem like a bust.

They just seem very expensive for me but I don't know if they add much anti tank how would you be equipping them.

 

I was thinking as thus

 

3 Malcadors

-command tank

-flare shields

-armoured ceramite

-battle cannons

-demolisher cannons

-lascannon sponsons

 

Comes out to 1175 I think.

 

No reason for auxillary drive or dozer blades as they can't actually get imbolized... actually half of the upgrades they can take are straight unless. Guess just means don't waste points on those.

 

I'm also starting to feel Russ is awful. Like he's really great at doing 1 thing which is killing his brothers for now (won't be so good when the chaos baddies get buffed). I also like that he brings Veterans as troops because sniper is far better than Grey Slayers can hope to be.

 

 

 

But here are my 5 thingss bad about Russ that make him almost unwieldy.

 

1) with 3 other hqs you spend way to much on characters. 2) he needs a transport and so do all your other characters. 3) for a primarch he is expensive especially in a list where a lot of points go to characters already. 4) he's only really good at one thing, he doesn't fight tarpit's well he doesn't cause ID (though sever life is maybe okay to make up for it ish... I think it's worse most times) and he's garbage at killing tanks and walkers (sure he'll destroy a Rhino but av 14 he needs 6's a Leviathan would do a number on him so would most knights) 5) he really needs a bodyguard he's slow prone to getting shot and has a pretty average save toughness and wound count he gets shot dead very fast and defintely needs some extra wounds around him.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[1ncarnadine]

 

1) with 3 other hqs you spend way to much on characters. 2) he needs a transport and so do all your other characters. 3) for a primarch he is expensive especially in a list where a lot of points go to characters already. 4) he's only really good at one thing, he doesn't fight tarpit's well he doesn't cause ID (though sever life is maybe okay to make up for it ish... I think it's worse most times) and he's garbage at killing tanks and walkers (sure he'll destroy a Rhino but av 14 he needs 6's a Leviathan would do a number on him so would most knights) 5) he really needs a bodyguard he's slow prone to getting shot and has a pretty average save toughness and wound count he gets shot dead very fast and defintely needs some extra wounds around him.

 

You can always do what World Eaters do, and drop him alone in a Dreadclaw with an attached Speaker of the Dead (they'd use Angron & Gahlan Surlak)? It seems to work well enough for them, although Angron has Armourbane instead of Sunder so more anti-vehicle utility there.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

1) with 3 other hqs you spend way to much on characters. 2) he needs a transport and so do all your other characters. 3) for a primarch he is expensive especially in a list where a lot of points go to characters already. 4) he's only really good at one thing, he doesn't fight tarpit's well he doesn't cause ID (though sever life is maybe okay to make up for it ish... I think it's worse most times) and he's garbage at killing tanks and walkers (sure he'll destroy a Rhino but av 14 he needs 6's a Leviathan would do a number on him so would most knights) 5) he really needs a bodyguard he's slow prone to getting shot and has a pretty average save toughness and wound count he gets shot dead very fast and defintely needs some extra wounds around him.

You can always do what World Eaters do, and drop him alone in a Dreadclaw with an attached Speaker of the Dead (they'd use Angron & Gahlan Surlak)? It seems to work well enough for them, although Angron has Armourbane instead of Sunder so more anti-vehicle utility there.

Angrons s9 and armourbane + surlak 4++ really make the difference and the no fact they can take drop pods and we can't in our rights hurts that to.

[Baluc]

 

As super heavy vehicles, Malcadors ignore many of the restrictions on Tank Squadrons, Scale with your army, 1 at 2k, 2 and 2.5, and 3 at 3k. And, don't use up a LoW slot. Them and Dreads is basically the only theoretical I can think of that can make Pale Hunter work. But like I said Dreads seem like a bust.

They just seem very expensive for me but I don't know if they add much anti tank how would you be equipping them.

 

I was thinking as thus

 

3 Malcadors

-command tank

-flare shields

-armoured ceramite

-battle cannons

-demolisher cannons

-lascannon sponsons

 

Comes out to 1175 I think.

 

 

I wouldn't take any of the defensive gear, or Command tank if I'm honest.

[Purge the Daemon]

 

I wouldn't take any of the defensive gear, or Command tank if I'm honest.

Having reread command tank I defintely wouldn't tank didn't realise squadron needed to shoot the same target for it.

 

I feel the defense js still good though but defiantly costly.

[sturguard]

I made an orbital assault list with Russ and his wolfkin in an anvillus. They are grwat, they give him essentially 8 extra wounds for 100 pts with t5 and they have FNP., So really around 11 wounds.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

How is three Malcdors wolfy ?

 

I am liking the combat shields for Slayers and everyone runs their command squads with them. Better to keep them alive to make combat.

[Purge the Daemon]

How is three Malcdors wolfy ?

 

I am liking the combat shields for Slayers and everyone runs their command squads with them. Better to keep them alive to make combat.

I feel combat shields are the worst option they have tbh. If they could take combat shields and a weapon it would be good. But as it stands it brings the cost up a ton and you aren't any more killy and vs shooting it's not a huge improvement and vs most weapons you die just the same hurt less than a tac squad and cost more.

[Runefyre]

So here's a revamped 2500 point Pale Hunters list taking into account some of Baluc's advice.

 

I'm actually pretty happy with it.

 

Note: this list assumes Hvarl counts as the mandatory Praetor and his command squad counts as a mandatory HQ choice.

 

Hvarl

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, 3x chainfists, phobos DT)

 

Speaker of the Dead

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, rhino DT)

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, power weapon, rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, power weapon, rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, power weapon, rhino DT)

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Primaris Lightning (2x kraken penetrators, battle-servitor control, ground-tracking auguries)

 

Malcador (demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons)

 

 

The vets now act as pseudo razorbacks (as two missiles can be fired out of the top hatches, and at 48" range as they have relentless). The Malcador is a decent distraction carnifex that can absorb some firepower and deal out considerable damage to multiple units.

[Purge the Daemon]

So here's a revamped 2500 point Pale Hunters list taking into account some of Baluc's advice.

 

I'm actually pretty happy with it.

 

Note: this list assumes Hvarl counts as the mandatory Praetor and his command squad counts as a mandatory HQ choice.

 

Hvarl

 

Command squad (tartaros terminator armour, 3x chainfists, phobos DT)

 

Speaker of the Dead

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, rhino DT)

 

Grey Slayer squad (2x power weapons, 2x combi-weapons, Huscarl: AA, GFB, rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, power weapon, rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, power weapon, rhino DT)

 

Veteran squad (10 dudes, 2x missile launchers, power weapon, rhino DT)

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Javelin (2x HK missiles)

 

Primaris Lightning (2x kraken penetrators, battle-servitor control, ground-tracking auguries)

 

Malcador (demolisher cannon, autocannon sponsons)

 

 

The vets now act as pseudo razorbacks (as two missiles can be fired out of the top hatches, and at 48" range as they have relentless). The Malcador is a decent distraction carnifex that can absorb some firepower and deal out considerable damage to multiple units.

While km fairly certain Hvarl will be alowed to fill the mandatory HQ I think there is next to 0 chance a command squad would count.

 

Like maybe the list does good I'm not entirely sure I feel just using scoring boxes especially in 30k where you need to disembark to score feels wonky. It's definitely not what I'd want to play for space wolves but I guess give it a try if you like it.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Purge the Daemon

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

The Command Squad counting is still something being debated????

 

Their Retinue rule pretty much spells out that they do not take up an HQ slot, that they are paired with the character they are purchased with. 

 

Retinue
A Legion Command Squad may only be chosen as a retinue
for a Legion Praetor or Legion special character with the
Warlord special rule, and may not be taken as part of an army
on their own. They take up a single Force Organisation chart
choice with that Praetor, but do not have to be deployed with
them and are treated as a separate unit during the game.