Coptimas Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I have mentioned my 2000 point list and have yet to have anyone comment lol. Quite handy for what it does, and it gives 40 Gray Slayers a 5++ while they're running across the board. If anyone plays against you in a 2000 point list with 3 leviathans, you're playing the wrong game, or you should be that guy and just spam shatter shell rapiers to teach the guy a lesson. Or hell, take Russ and watch those leviathans not be able to hit him by turn 2 in combat. I think many of you are getting your minds wrapped around unforseeable battles that won't even take place unless you know a guy that runs a jerk list in your meta. In which case, list tailor to your hearts content. I could give a crap beyond the Deathsworn living past killing an elite unit. Points shmoints, if you take out the big nasty in your enemy's army, they still have to deal with 40 or so Gray Slayers that want to punch them in the face. Still any comers for giving a fair assessment of my 2000 point list besides "spam shatter rapiers, and spam vets?" Because seriously that makes every legion boring. Sorry Im new to this, forums that is, where is the list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Here ya go :) I know it's not perfect but you get fast 5++ grey Slayers, and dedicated anti armor and anti death star units. Ok here's a deadly list I've drawn up: Second Wolf rite of war (don't know name but know rules) 2000 points or so HQ Hvarl Red Blade Wolf Priest with primus medicae duties Elites Deathsworn Pack (9 dudes - WP goes with them) +rad grenades and axes +Dreadclaw Troops 20 Grey Slayers +2 axes, 1 PF, Combat shield on rest 20 Grey Slayers +2 axes, 1 PF, Combat shield on rest Plasma support squad +Rhino (since they are infantry and gain scout but have a DT, it gains scout too :evil:) Heavy Support Deredeo with autocannons or Arachnus +Automantic shield thing Sicaran +lascannons Sicaran Venator So now you have 3 infantry units to scout up with Red Blade's rule, including scouting up 12" with the plasma squad in a rhino, moving 6", deploying 6", and then double tapping into a unit :devil: Gray Slayers run up with the Deredeo now giving the entire squad a 5++ due to the shields lol. Red Blade goes with one of them unless you want to put him with the Deathsworn. Deathsworn and wolf medic drop down turn one, and assault turn two into a nasty unit, likely surviving due to the 5+ FNP. Sicarans are just there for anti tank gravy. Otherwise, swap out the plasma dudes for melta dudes to obliterate a Spartan T1 (better idea). And swap the Sicarans for a melta Lance Levi or some Contemptor support. Ok so I did the points for it and got to 2000: Red Blade (210) Speaker for the dead (130) +AA, great frost blade, melta bombs 9 Deathsworn (315) +rad grenades, 1 great frost blade + Dreadclaw (115 not DT) 20 Gray Slayers (296) +1 PF, 2 PAs, 17 shields 20 Gray Slayers (296) +" " 5 support marines (210) + 5 melta guns, Rhino DT Deredeo (235) +Autocannons, atomantic pavaise Sicaran Venator (190) Comes out with 3 extra points lol :D Coptimas and 1ncarnadine 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coptimas Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Here ya go I know it's not perfect but you get fast 5++ grey Slayers, and dedicated anti armor and anti death star units. Ok here's a deadly list I've drawn up: Second Wolf rite of war (don't know name but know rules) 2000 points or so HQ Hvarl Red Blade Wolf Priest with primus medicae duties Elites Deathsworn Pack (9 dudes - WP goes with them) +rad grenades and axes +Dreadclaw Troops 20 Grey Slayers +2 axes, 1 PF, Combat shield on rest 20 Grey Slayers +2 axes, 1 PF, Combat shield on rest Plasma support squad +Rhino (since they are infantry and gain scout but have a DT, it gains scout too ) Heavy Support Deredeo with autocannons or Arachnus +Automantic shield thing Sicaran +lascannons Sicaran Venator So now you have 3 infantry units to scout up with Red Blade's rule, including scouting up 12" with the plasma squad in a rhino, moving 6", deploying 6", and then double tapping into a unit Gray Slayers run up with the Deredeo now giving the entire squad a 5++ due to the shields lol. Red Blade goes with one of them unless you want to put him with the Deathsworn. Deathsworn and wolf medic drop down turn one, and assault turn two into a nasty unit, likely surviving due to the 5+ FNP. Sicarans are just there for anti tank gravy. Otherwise, swap out the plasma dudes for melta dudes to obliterate a Spartan T1 (better idea). And swap the Sicarans for a melta Lance Levi or some Contemptor support. Ok so I did the points for it and got to 2000: Red Blade (210) Speaker for the dead (130) +AA, great frost blade, melta bombs 9 Deathsworn (315) +rad grenades, 1 great frost blade + Dreadclaw (115 not DT) 20 Gray Slayers (296) +1 PF, 2 PAs, 17 shields 20 Gray Slayers (296) +" " 5 support marines (210) + 5 melta guns, Rhino DT Deredeo (235) +Autocannons, atomantic pavaise Sicaran Venator (190) Comes out with 3 extra points lol Here ya go I know it's not perfect but you get fast 5++ grey Slayers, and dedicated anti armor and anti death star units. Ok here's a deadly list I've drawn up: Second Wolf rite of war (don't know name but know rules) 2000 points or so HQ Hvarl Red Blade Wolf Priest with primus medicae duties Elites Deathsworn Pack (9 dudes - WP goes with them) +rad grenades and axes +Dreadclaw Troops 20 Grey Slayers +2 axes, 1 PF, Combat shield on rest 20 Grey Slayers +2 axes, 1 PF, Combat shield on rest Plasma support squad +Rhino (since they are infantry and gain scout but have a DT, it gains scout too ) Heavy Support Deredeo with autocannons or Arachnus +Automantic shield thing Sicaran +lascannons Sicaran Venator So now you have 3 infantry units to scout up with Red Blade's rule, including scouting up 12" with the plasma squad in a rhino, moving 6", deploying 6", and then double tapping into a unit Gray Slayers run up with the Deredeo now giving the entire squad a 5++ due to the shields lol. Red Blade goes with one of them unless you want to put him with the Deathsworn. Deathsworn and wolf medic drop down turn one, and assault turn two into a nasty unit, likely surviving due to the 5+ FNP. Sicarans are just there for anti tank gravy. Otherwise, swap out the plasma dudes for melta dudes to obliterate a Spartan T1 (better idea). And swap the Sicarans for a melta Lance Levi or some Contemptor support. Ok so I did the points for it and got to 2000: Red Blade (210) Speaker for the dead (130) +AA, great frost blade, melta bombs 9 Deathsworn (315) +rad grenades, 1 great frost blade + Dreadclaw (115 not DT) 20 Gray Slayers (296) +1 PF, 2 PAs, 17 shields 20 Gray Slayers (296) +" " 5 support marines (210) + 5 melta guns, Rhino DT Deredeo (235) +Autocannons, atomantic pavaise Sicaran Venator (190) Comes out with 3 extra points lol That's a good list. covers the majority of bases and has the right amount of tactical flexibility. I never write 2000 pt lists as our lot prefer 3000 pts for heresy. The problem is the deredeo imo, they only offer the increase to the marines in the bubble from my recollection not the unit. Also you lose the anti air by moving it. Id be interested to see if you can shoe horn Russ into 2000 pts as he is the real reason the Wolves are a concern right now i think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Lol you could drop the Speaker and Deathsworn and just put him in a solo Dreadclaw and watch him T2 charge and lolz it up. Deredeo I think you're right, though I wouldn't be largely concerned with anti air at such a low list. Going to 3000 points, add some more Slayers, make the Deredeo shooty-er, take Russ, and add a Levy or some Contemptor Corvus dreads. Or take a Mastodon and laugh when you charge turn one with 40 Slayers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 If massed ifantry marines we're a valid strategy I think we would have seen it already be done by WE who have a significantly tougher marines. I'm talking about The Crimson Path. Bare in mind for lots of people events like Adepticon, or local tournaments are the majority of their gaming time. Not everyone has a group of friends who they play narrative games with, so keep your privilege under control. What is your plan for when your Grey Slayers get assaulted by a fluffy Contemptor Cortus? Or assaulting into cover? Or a Spartan, or any AV14 vehicle? Do you only play against legion armies? Your army is very vulnerable to even the fluffiest of SA armies, and Thanatar will love you. Your list will look great on a shelf but will it pay the bills? 1 unit of 3 Quad mortars removes 14 marines in one volley. I wish there were units of Fenrisian wolves available as non-compulsory, non-scoring troops, would actually the infantry game much more playable. Lol you could drop the Speaker and Deathsworn and just put him in a solo Dreadclaw and watch him T2 charge and lolz it up.Deredeo I think you're right, though I wouldn't be largely concerned with anti air at such a low list. Going to 3000 points, add some more Slayers, make the Deredeo shooty-er, take Russ, and add a Levy or some Contemptor Corvus dreads.Or take a Mastodon and laugh when you charge turn one with 40 Slayers... You can't drop the Speaker without replacing him with something, need a 2nd hq for 2k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlo Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Some of us don't like to just say "well we lost before we even played if the enemy takes this" Baluc... Coptimas and Ranwulf 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Definately moving more and more towards no RoW or at all for all comers list. I'm still holding on to Armoured Spearhead, but even that isn't working our well currently at 2500 points. I tend to favour a more MSU or at least multiple unit playstyle. Some of us don't like to just say "well we lost before we even played if the enemy takes this" Baluc... You understand and accept that its a possibility though right? Like 2 dracosians and a malcador infernus is hardly power gaming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Baluc, how many games have you played really? Do you want to know how many games I've won that haven't been friendly, and I love to play against "hardcore" people like you and watch them cry when they lose, because xyz meta said muh list was the bestest? I won't go into this silly fight you want to start. There power fists in the units, Deredeo can kill an AV13 unit a turn, and much more besides. If a thanatar pops up, it will crap it's pants when the Deathsworn hop in. I've watched quite a few batreps on YT who have tried doing small units of mech world Eaters and it rarely works - it lacks the power of large units to put some threat behind it. I love MSU guys from 40k because I introduce a Scorpius and it completely blows their minds. You're spitting out garbage saying what about x when clearly it's a hard counter, yet the game is anything but static. Put forth a list, or stop bellyaching. Better yet, make a list and I'll make one purely just to spite and counter it so you'll never play the game because you're afraid to ever lose against an army :D :P It's just a game dude. Win some, lose some. If winning is the only thing you want out of 30k, you're likely in the wrong place. If you feel so hidebound, just play a different legion. Robzilla, svane jotunsbane, Coptimas and 1 other 4 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 (edited) Baluc, how many games have you played really? Do you want to know how many games I've won that haven't been friendly, and I love to play against "hardcore" people like you and watch them cry when they lose, because xyz meta said muh list was the bestest? I won't go into this silly fight you want to start. There power fists in the units, Deredeo can kill an AV13 unit a turn, and much more besides. If a thanatar pops up, it will crap it's pants when the Deathsworn hop in. I've watched quite a few batreps on YT who have tried doing small units of mech world Eaters and it rarely works - it lacks the power of large units to put some threat behind it. I love MSU guys from 40k because I introduce a Scorpius and it completely blows their minds. You're spitting out garbage saying what about x when clearly it's a hard counter, yet the game is anything but static. Put forth a list, or stop bellyaching. Better yet, make a list and I'll make one purely just to spite and counter it so you'll never play the game because you're afraid to ever lose against an army It's just a game dude. Win some, lose some. If winning is the only thing you want out of 30k, you're likely in the wrong place. If you feel so hidebound, just play a different legion. Of heresy or 40k? I've been playing for a multitude of war games for 20 years, 40k since 2nd edition. Your three fist don't stop a Cortus. 6 attacks on 4s is not Av13 vehicle killing power, you do less than 2 hull points and lose the combat. Deathsworn at S5 do not kill a T8 monster. Are you of the opinion that OA is a garbage RoW? Because you know that is MSU right... Thanks to moral and scatter a Scorpius is actually better against larger units. But I get it, complex digestion of mathematics is well complex. Why is it that I'm the bad guy because I point out the obvious flawed design? So again what is the plan? This is a tactica right? I presented a tactical challenge, counter them with facts so we can discuss it. Edited February 5, 2017 by Baluc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantay VI Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I am a bit slow but if i run Wolves..... I have no choice but have Slayers as compulsary? No matter what? Or is it the Wolf RoW which forces slayer to be compulsary? Does orbital assault state certain units must be compulsary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 So as an olive branch because I'm the bad guy for being critical I'll post a strong wolves list, using the scraps we've been given. 2500 lets play Space Wolves the way FW says! Redblade-210 Pale hunter Centurion - 50 Praetor - 190 Paragon Blade Frost Axe Iron Halo Aether-rune Armour Digital Lasers 15 Grey slayers - 220 Great frostblade 3x power fist 15 Grey slayers - 220 Great frostblade 3x power fist 10 Varagyr - 530 w/ Frost blade,Powerfist Spartan - 380 w/ flare shield, Dozer, aux drive The Primarch Leman Russ 2265 what should I add guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 That list seems to have adequate anti-tank for 2000 points. At bigger games you could probably add more specialist units to deal with armor. I don't really see the problem. The "worst" AV-spam I could throw at that list would be my 2500 point Solar Auxilia list, off the top of my head HQ#1 - Lord Marshall, MC paragon blade, various toys, etc. HQ#2 - Command Squad with powerfist on strategos, 2 haywire grenade launchers, 3 extra mooks Dedicated Transport - Dracosan Transport w/ flare shield, dozer, demolisher cannon HQ#3 - Tank Commander (goes in Infernus) Elites - Medic (goes in command Dracosan) Troops#1 - Veletaris Storm Section with fist, shroud bombs, vox Dedicated Transport - Dracosan as above Troops #2 - same as above Dedicated Transport - as above FA - Lightning Strike Fighter with 4x kraken missiles, can't recall if it has auguries or not in this list HS - Malcador Heavy Tank with flare shield, dozer, demolisher cannon, lascannons HS - Malcador Heavy Tank as above HS - Infernus with chem ammo, lascannons (commander goes here for preferred enemy or scout) 6 AV14 hulls, 5 behind flare shields. Lots of templates to kill infantry. It would be tough going for the Wolves, I think. Coptimas 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I am a bit slow but if i run Wolves..... I have no choice but have Slayers as compulsary? No matter what? Or is it the Wolf RoW which forces slayer to be compulsary? Does orbital assault state certain units must be compulsary? Its hard without the book in your hands its ok. Basically Grey Slayers will always be compulsory troops as a Legion Rule. Any RoW that would bypass that won't work. Orbital assault works fine and is probably one of the better RoW for wolves, if you own enough Land Speeders, Javalins, Lightnings and Dreadnought Drop pods. It means we can actually only use the follow RoW: Pale Hunter Bloodied Claw Orbital Assault Angel's Wrath (needs at least 2x Storm eagles or Dreadclaws) Armoured Spearhead Skyhunter Phalanx (needs at least 2x Storm eagles or Dreadclaws) Outcast sons Zone Mortalis Assault force Coptimas 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Baluc, how many games have you played really? Do you want to know how many games I've won that haven't been friendly, and I love to play against "hardcore" people like you and watch them cry when they lose, because xyz meta said muh list was the bestest? I won't go into this silly fight you want to start. There power fists in the units, Deredeo can kill an AV13 unit a turn, and much more besides. If a thanatar pops up, it will crap it's pants when the Deathsworn hop in. I've watched quite a few batreps on YT who have tried doing small units of mech world Eaters and it rarely works - it lacks the power of large units to put some threat behind it. I love MSU guys from 40k because I introduce a Scorpius and it completely blows their minds. You're spitting out garbage saying what about x when clearly it's a hard counter, yet the game is anything but static. Put forth a list, or stop bellyaching. Better yet, make a list and I'll make one purely just to spite and counter it so you'll never play the game because you're afraid to ever lose against an army It's just a game dude. Win some, lose some. If winning is the only thing you want out of 30k, you're likely in the wrong place. If you feel so hidebound, just play a different legion. Of heresy or 40k? I've been playing for a multitude of war games for 20 years, 40k since 2nd edition. Your three fist don't stop a Cortus. 6 attacks on 4s is not Av13 vehicle killing power, you do less than 2 hull points and lose the combat. Deathsworn at S5 do not kill a T8 monster. Are you of the opinion that OA is a garbage RoW? Because you know that is MSU right... Thanks to moral and scatter a Scorpius is actually better against larger units. But I get it, complex digestion of mathematics is well complex. Why is it that I'm the bad guy because I point out the obvious flawed design? So again what is the plan? This is a tactica right? I presented a tactical challenge, counter them with facts so we can discuss it. Still no list? No creative content? Um the list has scouting meltas, bane to anything with armor in 2000 because no one wants to waste points on armored ceramite. You don't even need to blow up contemptors to neuter them, or even leviathans for that matter. Making it so they can't move through immobilization or stun result makes them dead in the water. Hilarious as I agree mathematical calculations are difficult, I was majoring in actuarial science and doing a variety of calculus before finding it easy and boring in a void. It's why I'm doing accounting, some numbers are immaterial and complex mathematical digestion without a reason is just spinning in circles of eventualities that are unlikely. So let me break it down for you, super math is garbage if you don't use common sense. I also countered your thanatar "tactical facts" since we all know everyone has like three of them in every list, and your armor threat. With a silly 2000 point all comers list. Like dude c'mon. What more facts do you want? Honestly, the truth if you want to get down in it, is most legion lists just lose to AdMech unless you've got a way to deliver a Primarch or have snipers in droves. I'll concede you'll loose to that. My list wasn't OA by the way lol it was the second legion specific RoW with one Dreadclaw :P Coptimas 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 I said OA is MSU not that your list was OA. Posted a list right above you, as did Withershadow a variation of a pretty common SA build, which is as close to auto lose as a match can get in the 40k ruleset. Again to underline. My opinion is not that SW suck. They are quite capable of fielding a variation on the normal legion lists. But there is limit other directions I'm actually talking about the 7-8.5 competitive level it seriously lacks in that department and that is the level that usually defines an armylists attractiveness. The book 6 RoW opened up vastly different ways to play all the legions. SW have been put in the box, that on top of no model support is what really has me pissed is they found a way for wolves probably my favourite faction in any war game to be... boring and dull. depthcharge12 1 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coptimas Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 If massed ifantry marines we're a valid strategy I think we would have seen it already be done by WE who have a significantly tougher marines. I'm talking about The Crimson Path. Bare in mind for lots of people events like Adepticon, or local tournaments are the majority of their gaming time. Not everyone has a group of friends who they play narrative games with, so keep your privilege under control. What is your plan for when your Grey Slayers get assaulted by a fluffy Contemptor Cortus? Or assaulting into cover? Or a Spartan, or any AV14 vehicle? Do you only play against legion armies? Your army is very vulnerable to even the fluffiest of SA armies, and Thanatar will love you. Your list will look great on a shelf but will it pay the bills? 1 unit of 3 Quad mortars removes 14 marines in one volley. I wish there were units of Fenrisian wolves available as non-compulsory, non-scoring troops, would actually the infantry game much more playable. Lol you could drop the Speaker and Deathsworn and just put him in a solo Dreadclaw and watch him T2 charge and lolz it up. Deredeo I think you're right, though I wouldn't be largely concerned with anti air at such a low list. Going to 3000 points, add some more Slayers, make the Deredeo shooty-er, take Russ, and add a Levy or some Contemptor Corvus dreads. Or take a Mastodon and laugh when you charge turn one with 40 Slayers... You can't drop the Speaker without replacing him with something, need a 2nd hq for 2k. Hi Baluc, I'm a little confused as to your points re massed infantry, and them not working? You used the facts that WE do it and it doesnt work in top tier, or words to the effect. Im not sure I'd go with that but arguments about tiered armies are for another day. The fact you then talk about Thanatars, Cortices and Spartans etc causing problems has me wondering what you do when gaming? Table side do you routinely run tactical squads at those types of units when you have Sicarans or dreds on field? With regard to my privilege and your lack there of i can only apologize, had i known you lacked friends I would of started my introduction differently and immediately invited you to be one of mine. Also the fact that players at these events you mention have little chance to play other than at those tournaments makes me truly wonder just how good they can be tactically, i mean a couple of games a year and thats it, they must be if they dont get any practice at all. Ill have to watch a couple more of the tournaments and see i suppose. Seriously though, the options depthcharge12's list has are more than able to deal at 2000 pts if played right. A few teaks and I suspect with some sound thought and your advanced mathatics i have no doubt you will comprise a list worthy of those top tiers all by yourself too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) With regard to my privilege and your lack there of i can only apologize, had i known you lacked friends I would of started my introduction differently and immediately invited you to be one of mine. Oof! Shots fired. I don't know if I agree with the argument that massed infantry is useless or that World Eaters can't get the job done, they do fantastically well from reports in their forum, with a variety of degrees of "gaming privilege" in their pooled experience. My experience is that for most people the majority of their gaming time is not Adepticon or major cons like that, but local events, which can be competitive or narrative. If you're only getting 3-4 games a year, I don't care what you bring to the table, you will be disadvantaged. While applied experience is not as crucial to success as in games like Warmachine or X-Wing, this also isn't 40K formationhammer that can make autopilot lists. And I would argue even with those types of lists the guy with more experience has much better odds. In 30K, even using that Solar Auxilia list that's as close to auto-pilot as you can get in 30K (it's my favorite Drunkhammer list, cuz I can make a lot of vroom and boom sound-effects), some poor deployment choices and a Leviathan in a drop pod, and suddenly you're in for bad times. Anyway, I think it's way too early to declare the Wolves as non-competitive Legion, much like it's far too early to crown the Thousand Sons the godtier Legion (and that's a far more convincing argument!). We just got these rules. The Talons I expect will be super popular, as well, so any meta, national or local, is due for some upsets. I honestly don't even understand what the argument is anymore... Space Wolves can function as a 10/10 list, but are not good enough for a 7/10 list? What? If the argument is they lack flexibility in not being able to take Drop Assault Vanguard (meh) or Pride of the Legion (also meh) or one of the jetbike ones (come on, wolves on jetbikes? even as someone who loathes the Rout, I am offended on their behalf! You spit fighting words, frater! And same goes for Armoured Breakthrough), that's a fair point, but they do get a much nicer core troop choice in exchange (and Russ can bring compulsory veterans). I suspect people will also gravitate towards the unique Rites and "thematic" builds, because that's what drew them to the Wolves in the first place. Much like how we primarily see Night Lords running Terror Assault (even though NLs can be awesome at everything), or World Eaters only running Berserker Assault (even though their rules and chainaxes let them build a more traditional shooty Legion list and still outfight any other Legion in melee). And this could all be a moot point! Bligh's answer was vague, so it could be Rites that move troop choices around still work. Edited February 6, 2017 by Withershadow depthcharge12 and svane jotunsbane 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Lets break it down as to why massed infantry on foot doesn't exist, with a slight twist from a SW point of view. 1. Its slow. Now Grey slayers have the ability to run and charge which seems great on paper. We're space wolves we assault that's mostly true. So we have the ability theoretically to get into assault. Its technically faster than a transport since you can assault as soon as you are in range. However to have this ability you give up the opportunity to have any in unit support, no characters, not even the humble apothecary. 2. Its risky. In a rhino it takes a least two different units shooting at you to harm the juice space marine core. Now a rhino isn't hard to destroy but it does actually take some effort after cover saves and things are worked out. So instead of taking a Rhino the rules encourage us to take more guys... except that is more expensive that just taking a transport. And, because its not two different types of target (Tank first, Infantry second) my opponent's game is much simpler as he has fewer choices to make. Now my game is determined on my ability to roll saves, roll difficult terrain (the bigger the unit the less open board space you have to work with), and roll moral tests I'm going to take. The only way to mitigate the last issue is by losing speed... yet again, or Taking my Primarch. 3. Units variability. The game is literally all just a variation of T4 3+ (+/- cover save) kill rates. That is what 40k breaks down to. You take other units to move the meter down enough that you can complete objectives and try and win games. Everything in Inferno from the LA rules, RoW and Legion units says FW don't understand what happened to their game when it got into the hands of gamers. Again I'll but it in bold this time. The issue isn't that a list can't be built. Its that every wolf player will be playing some variation of Red-blade, Russ, The Bloodied claw six months from now. Space wolves could have been anything and now they are just a few variations on massed infantry. I love that we can re-roll outflank... when the only unit we have with outflank is Vets which we can't really take outside of Russ since Grey Slayers are sufficiently good in assault to compare and we HAVE TO TAKE THEM ALL THE TIME. I've played these games for a long time, its not difficult to sous out the functional builds. We're sitting here figuring out if we should take 10, 15, or 20 grey slayers in a unit, like the list has been out for 6 years and everything has been found out. 1Ksons are finding something new and amazing every time someone posts as question... Once more for clarity. The issue isn't that a list can't be built. Its that every wolf player will be playing some variation of Red-blade, Russ, The Bloodied claw six months from now. Space wolves could have been anything and now they are just a few variations on massed infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robzilla Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 To be fair to Baluc here guys, he posted (a pretty solid) list on the other page as an olive branch... I'm sure we can all agree on one thing, some legion rules are better than no rules, I'm also sure we can all agree that whilst sometimes it's cathartic to have a good moan, it can sometimes get out of hand and end up in a spiral of negativity... Lashing out back and forth won't get us anywhere. How's about the sarcastic responses, and the (over the top) negativity ends here, and we all focus on something positive - how to make a good list? As I touched on a bit before Blue, I think your list is quite good! What minis do you have to work with? Honestly, with that list, if you were to take it up to 3k, there's a ton of options open... Really is just limited to what minis you have that are readily available. That said, I'd be looking to possibly double down on a second spartan, and/or look into air transport like storm eagles... Curtis in pods could help out getting up close and personal, and for cheap points filler there's always land speeders. They are lethal. I'm guessing the overall intent was to have Russ go with the terminators, but I'd be tempted to pop him with the regular grey slayers (if they get a transport) and bung the other hq with the terminators. Maybe even fork out for the chooser of the dead upgrade for more resilience. The thing with the grey slayers is, whilst its nice to have their warriors mettle skill, if you pop them in an assault transport, its a bit redundant, isn't it? In that instance whilst it's wasted, I'd still rather pop a wolf priest with them for a) simplicity of placement, and b) resilience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Withershadow Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Isn't the whole point of the Wolves that they are special snowflakes, and do their own thing, and don't care about any silly Pricipia Belicosa or Codex Astartes? Books are for nerds, anyway. Once again, FW has managed to perfectly capture the character of a Legion in their rules. If you want to play Wolves, play Wolves. Get your boys and start knocking heads. It's what you were bred for! *looks down his nose imperiously while laughing in privilege* :P :D svane jotunsbane and Robzilla 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Isn't the whole point of the Wolves that they are special snowflakes, and do their own thing, and don't care about any silly Pricipia Belicosa or Codex Astartes? Books are for nerds, anyway. Once again, FW has managed to perfectly capture the character of a Legion in their rules. If you want to play Wolves, play Wolves. Get your boys and start knocking heads. It's what you were bred for! *looks down his nose imperiously while laughing in privilege* You understand the irony of that statement right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coptimas Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Well Gents and or ladies, thanks for the discourse and I shall post a 3000 pts list for all comers tmw. Its been a pleasure...and a privilege. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 You could always use Red Blade (sorry he's used again) to use scout on your Gray Slayers and outflank to get close. Not guaranteed, but having acute senses helps to influence that. So OUTFLANK THREE UNITS OF GREY SLAYERS TO JUNK PUNCH SOME TRAITORS! ;) Baluc and Plaguecaster 2 Back to top Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baluc Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 You could always use Red Blade (sorry he's used again) to use scout on your Gray Slayers and outflank to get close. Not guaranteed, but having acute senses helps to influence that. So OUTFLANK THREE UNITS OF GREY SLAYERS TO JUNK PUNCH SOME TRAITORS! So you ARE starting to see what I was saying! Red-Blade already starting to be locked in. More seriously Assault out of outflank would have been a decent rule to add the Pale Hunter to combat the no drop pod limitation. I always figure something out. You lot will be the first to know, I just wish more of our legion rules worked on models with the LA:SW rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemePaul Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 (edited) Bloodied Claw/Pale Hunters list @ 3K Pts HQ Wolf Lord 185 AEther Rune Armour, Great Frost Blade, digi lasers Iron Halo Caster of Runes 135 Mastery 2 (Divination), Artificer Armour, Refactor Field, Caster of Runes 135 Mastery 2 (Divination), Artificer Armour, Refactor Field, Total HQ 455 ELITES Varagyr Wolf Guard Terminator Squad (6) 372 6x Plasma, 6x Chain Fists Spartan Assault Tank 370 Dedicated Transport, Armoured Ceramite, Flare Shield Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought 165 Two Twin Linked Autocannon Extra Armour Total Elites 907 TROOPS Grey Slayers (10) 200 Huscarl: Artificer Armour, power Fist / Unit: 2x Combi Melta, 2x Power Fists 5x Combat Shields, Legion Rhino 35 Dedicated Transport Grey Slayers (10) 200 Huscarl: Artificer Armour, power Fist / Unit: 2x Combi Melta, 2x Power Fists 5x Combat Shields, Legion Rhino 35 Dedicated Transport Grey Slayers (10) 200 Huscarl: Artificer Armour, power Fist / Unit: 2x Combi Melta, 2x Power Fists 5x Combat Shields, Legion Rhino 35 Dedicated Transport Legion Support Squad (6) 235 Sergeant: Artificer Armour Power Weapon Plasma Gun, Unit: 6 Plasma Guns, 6 Close Combat Weapons Rhino 35 Dedicated Transport Legion Support Squad (6) 235 Sergeant: Artificer Armour Power Weapon Plasma Gun, Unit: 5 Plasma Guns, 5 Close Combat Weapons Rhino 35 Dedicated Transport Total Troops 1245 HEAVY SUPPORT Vindicator Siege Tank Squadron (3) 390 3 Laser Destroyer Arrays Total Heavy Support 390 I see the army more like 5th Edition wolves where we take and hold the mid field while daring our opponents to come to us. The Vindicators and the Spartan between them should crack any med armour and maybe get lucky with a spartan. Massed transports mitigates phosphex spam. Divination on 2 mastery level 2 psykers will make sure the Combi weapons shots hit when it counts plus acts as a buff to the grey slayers. Support squads are intended to stay just behind the main line and vape any heavy infantry/ robots. Army is a bit vulnerable to fliers. Edited February 6, 2017 by GraemePaul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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