Team Breacher

[Doctor Perils]

That's the main reason I picked the phosphex originally, but I agree that was too strong.

 

Of course, with combi weapons that cause lots of blasts, that's not going to make them too much like destroyers, and these can be considered part of the destroyer corps in fluff terms

[Charlo]

I... I want this unit a lot. Power sickles are an awesome idea.

[Doctor Perils]

Thanks. Does it still look overpowered ?

And I have to admit, I'm also very pleased with the idea of the power sickle. I think it would also fit very nicely with the Night Lords, possibly also with the word bearers, but I can't see any of the other legions using such an esoteric looking weapon...

[StoneSentinels]

I just love the idea of hiding behind the Breacher shields and spraying the enemy with *insert damaging fluid of choice*!

[Hesh Kadesh]

I just love the idea of hiding behind the Breacher shields and spraying the enemy with *insert damaging fluid of choice*!

Thats slaanesh mate.

[Excessus]

 

Legion Crusade Red Book

This is going to be a straight re-print with the latest units like the Leviathan, Xiphon, Damocles Command Rhino etc added. No points values changes as FW are happy with the points values but some units may have added rules or abilities to reflect their higher points cost.

So what do you think? Will we see breachers get a little rules-update? :)

[Big Bad Squig]

Question for all you experienced breacher-related people:

 

I'm currently working on a character for this month's March of the Legions (X) who will be equipped with a boarding shield.  Since I don't have any to hand, this is being used as a base.

 

http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2015/12/29/767177_md-.JPG

 

Is this an appropriate size, or should it be bulked up?

[Tychii]

Phosphoric point costs come at a premium. They are a solution to everything but armour in 30k. So yes they are far to over powered.

If you change the ap then it isn't phosphex, the only way to get a 10man squad with ap2 flashbane small blasts is to make the unit like 500+points.

Hoestly I don't really see this as an idea working.

This unit will reliably kill any primarch +attached unit in 1turn without thinning twice about it. It's just too much.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Call them Phosphor. Gives them AP3 Rending, Gets Hot flamers, but the Gets hot ignores armour saves?

[Aeternus]

What Hesh is saying sounds good. Diluted phosphex. Especially liking the gets hot ignoring armour saves (and probably the breaching shield save? can't imagine a marine putting his gun infront of his shield so he doesn't get burnt  )

 

Still up the cost a bit though.

[Doctor Perils]

Ok. Should it still be a combi-weapon, or directly phosphor-lance ? I'm sort of afraid that a straight out phosphor lance could be way too strong, but I may be completely wrong.

 

I have to admit though, a flamer kind weapon like this sounds nice. Should it be simply flamers with alchem munitions otherwise ?

[Aeternus]

Still go with combi weapon, I think. I think flamers with alchem is slightly too boring, but that might just be me.

[Ordo Machinum]

I'd like to sign up for Team Breacher.

 

I just started a 40K Iron Hands project when this shadowy robed guy thrust a mechadendrite holding a small scorched piece of piece of paper at me. It read "Heresy Train Ticket". Gesturing with another mechadendrite, he pointed to this really megalithic train. As I pondered stepping aboard, a red robed figure at the door wearing a conductor's hat said "...we have breachers..."

 

How could I resist? I jumped aboard (haven't really seen an exit ramp... and we haven't seemed to stop at another station yet...)

 

So, here I am. Right now I'm pondering Medusan Immortals versus Legion Breachers. Immortals have a minor point difference, Feel No Pain and Gun Them Down rules, optional Volkites for all models as opposed to standard breachers. Can anyone weigh in if they serve better in general battle or Zone Mortalis situations?

 

Oh... and is there a food car on this train?

[Doctor Perils]

Update 3.0 available here.

 

Here's an updated entry for the Death Guard Cremators then, using the phosphor flamers that Hesh proposed. I'm giving it the tentative name of "phosphor lance" and pricing the combi form at 15 points (as opposed to a combi-flamer at 10 points). I'm also wondering whether it would be a good idea to give them the option to use Assault Grenade Launchers (I've still got this mad idea of them lobbing grenades over their shields to mash their enemies up at a further distance a bit first), and/or a Phosphex Bomb for the Ash Warden.

 

I am giving the Phosphor Lance the "Volatile" rule instead of a simple Gets Hot! As things stand, I'm going to make the user make a BS test: if he passes, then the shot works, if not then tough luck. However, on a 1, he takes a wound with no Saves of Any Kind allowed (I can't remember if that includes FNP in the BRB). This may mean that the 15 point price tag on the weapon is a bit steep, but it's obviously still open to changes. However, I'm not sure how snap fire (in particular Overwatch) should be taken care of.

Update with some of Hesh's next propositions. I've copied the text for Shield Mocker from the book: for legal reasons, should I replace it with the reference?

 

EDIT: and welcome to Team Breacher, Rashbold!

 

Death Guard Cremators (2.1)........................................................... 250 Points

 

A specialised section of the Death Guard's Destroyer Corps, the Cremators' original purpose was to help in the cleansing of Xenos Spaceships, bringing the horror of Phosphex to bear against these enemies of humanity in places usually too deadly for even Marines, with the exception of Breachers and Terminators. However, in the dark days of the Horus Heresy, they have found a new purpose, as their Phosphor Lances prove remarkably effective against Power Armour.

 

                        WS BS  S  T  W  I  A  Ld Sv

Cremator.......    4    4   4  4   1  4  1   8   3+

Ash Warden...   4    4   4  4   1  4   2   9   3+

 

Unit Composition

• 4 Death Guard Cremators
• 1 Death Guard Ash Warden

Unit Type

• Infantry
• Infantry Character (Ash Warden)

Wargear

• Power Armour
• Boarding Shield
• Combi-Phosphor
• Bolt Pistol
• Frag and Krak grenades

Special Rules

• Legiones Astartes (Death Guard)
• Hardened Armour

Dedicated Transport

• The Squad may take a Land Raider Phobos as Dedicated Transport

Options

• The Death Guard Cremator squad may take
  • Up to 5 Additional Cremators...................... 25 pts
• For every five models in the squad, one Cremator may exchange their combi-phosphor for one of the following:
  • Volkite Charger........................................... free
  • Flamer........................................................ free
• One Cremator may take a Nuncio-Vox................. 10 pts
• One Cremator may take a Legion Vexilla............. 15 pts
• The Ash Warden may exchange their combi-phosphor for one of the following:
  • Power Weapon........................................... free
  • Power Sickle............................................... free
  • Power Fist.................................................. 5 pts
  • Single Lightning Claw................................. 5 pts
  • Plasma Pistol.............................................. 5 pts
  • Thunder Hammer....................................... 10 pts
• The Ash Warden may:
  • Upgrade to artificer armour........................ 10 pts
  • Note: this means he will also be subject to the Hardened Armour special rule

Hardened armour: see crusade army list page 32 in the legion breacher siege squad entry

 

Combi-Phosphor

Death Guard Cremators use a special combi-weapon, integrating both a bolter and a phospor lance, designed for exterminating hordes of xenos, while remaining protected behind their breacher shields. Phosphor lances project a stream of diluted phosphex, a compound still far more powerful then the promethium found in conventional flamers. However, with this increased potency comes greater risks as the phosphorus substance is extremely volatile: should the firing mechanism jam, the resulting projections of fluid would eat through a marines' armour in a flash. As a result, Phosphor lances are rarely - if ever - seen as main weapons.

 

Weapon                     range    Str   AP    Type

Bolter                             24"       4     5      Rapid Fire

Phosphor Lance      Template    4     3       Assault 1, One use, Shred, Gets Hot Volatile*

 

*Volatile: Armour saves may not be claimed against Wounds caused by the Gets Hot special rule.

 

Power Sickle

The Power Sickle was added to the Death Guards' panoply of war after Istvaan III, as they had discovered during the massacre of their loyalist elements that enemy breachers or otherwise shield equipped marines could be far harder to eliminate then previously imagined.

Though by some aspects the sickle resembles the larger power scythes of the Deathshroud, its function is completely different: the hook blade is designed to easily pry shields or other guarding weapons from an enemy, opening possible lines of attack for the wielder.

When used at the drop site massacre, they showed a great deal of worth, especially against Salamanders bearing prototype Storm Shields.

 

Weapon       range    Str   AP    Type

Power Sickle     -         Us    3      Melee, Rending, Short*, Shield Mocker**

 

*Short: The wielder loses -1 to their Initiative value.

 

**Shield Mocker: Enemy models may not claim any saves of any kind that are derived from carried shields, including combat shields, boarding shields, etc.

[Hesh Kadesh]

The Pry Shield effect can be simplified by taking the "Shield-mocker" rule from the Gladius Invictus (UM legion specific relic). There seems to be a lot of words for Volatile - this can be simplified by saying that Armour Saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by the Get's Hot special rule. Unwieldy seems to be a pain, and the AP2? Not too sure on that. AP3 Rending, with I-1 like the rumoured scythe improvement. The design process for Unwieldy was to allow enemy models engage thanks to Pile In moves - anything else would see a modl engaged with at most 2 models. Rumours suggest that scythes get -1 Initiative, so that the pile in triggers.

 

If a sheet of metal smaller than the Astartes carrying it can provide a 6++ Invulnerable Save against an Orbital Strike, for the sake of ease, it can provide an Invulnerable Save against any wounds suffered from the Gets Hot. 

 

Might need to change the "Combi-Rad" to "Combi-Phosphor". An alternative may be to take a Heavy Flamer (exchanging the Boarding Shield too), and/or a Rad/cleaner (5pts for the former, 15pts for the latter). Also, no Phosphex Bombs on the Sergeant?

[Doctor Perils]

The Pry Shield effect can be simplified by taking the "Shield-mocker" rule from the Gladius Invictus (UM legion specific relic). There seems to be a lot of words for Volatile - this can be simplified by saying that Armour Saves cannot be taken against wounds caused by the Get's Hot special rule. Unwieldy seems to be a pain, and the AP2? Not too sure on that. AP3 Rending, with I-1 like the rumoured scythe improvement. The design process for Unwieldy was to allow enemy models engage thanks to Pile In moves - anything else would see a modl engaged with at most 2 models. Rumours suggest that scythes get -1 Initiative, so that the pile in triggers.

 

If a sheet of metal smaller than the Astartes carrying it can provide a 6++ Invulnerable Save against an Orbital Strike, for the sake of ease, it can provide an Invulnerable Save against any wounds suffered from the Gets Hot. 

 

Might need to change the "Combi-Rad" to "Combi-Phosphor". An alternative may be to take a Heavy Flamer (exchanging the Boarding Shield too), and/or a Rad/cleaner (5pts for the former, 15pts for the latter). Also, no Phosphex Bombs on the Sergeant?

 

I hadn't known about the Ultramarine relic, but you're right it makes sense. I'd also given it unwieldy because I was going off the power axe, but the -1 to Init is better too. Changed Volatile according to your recommendations too.

 

I'm not sure about giving the option for a Heavy Flamer, seems weird to have a Marine in a Breacher Squad without a Breacher Shield... Also I think the Rad-Cleanser is meant to be Mechanicum only.

And do you mean that the Sergeant should or shouldn't be allowed Phosphex Bombs ?

What about Melta based weapons (melta gun and bombs) and lascutter ? I'd be inclined to say no, as they are already extremely deadly in ZM...

 

Thanks for all the help :)

[Liquid_O]

Chem munition Heavy Flamer with "suspensor web", but don't lose the boarding shield, +10 or 15 points?

[Slips]

No way, more like 20-25

[Doctor Perils]

Does the unit really need another Template weapon though ?

 

Anyway, are there any other comments in the mean time ? Does the price look more reasonable now ?

[Captain Idaho]

I'd drop the initial 5 models starting costs down to 200-225pts. I mean, 250pts is a starting cost of 50pts per model!

 

However, I recognise they are powerful models.

 

Personally, I'd go easier on the models and make them standard Breachers with a power sickle option and grant the special weapon mooks phosporex bombs as well as the Sergeant.

 

Simple but effective plus you can keep costs down.

 

Alternatively, we can add a "post Istvaan" option for minor virus grenades. Like fleshbane blasts that gives the unit rending in assault on the charge. I would even do this over the power sickle since it's powerful but balanced by a simple Breacher profile and the fact they're charging instead of being charged.

 

***edit*** Also - nice job on the unit.

[Tychii]

I think 200base with 25per extra would be fair.

The phosphex bombs on the Sargent only would be a good add on. You never really want units to be able to throw out more then 1 phosphex bomb per shooting phase imo.

 

The sickle looks good as well. Give it a couple test runs and see how it shakes out

[Doctor Perils]

I'd drop the initial 5 models starting costs down to 200-225pts. I mean, 250pts is a starting cost of 50pts per model!

 

However, I recognise they are powerful models.

 

Personally, I'd go easier on the models and make them standard Breachers with a power sickle option and grant the special weapon mooks phosporex bombs as well as the Sergeant.

 

Simple but effective plus you can keep costs down.

 

Alternatively, we can add a "post Istvaan" option for minor virus grenades. Like fleshbane blasts that gives the unit rending in assault on the charge. I would even do this over the power sickle since it's powerful but balanced by a simple Breacher profile and the fact they're charging instead of being charged.

 

***edit*** Also - nice job on the unit.

That's the power of group effort :)

When you say allow them the power sickle, would that mean there shouldn't be the combi-phosphor at all, or as a separate replacement to the bolt pistol/gun? Also, would it be a business of replacing all weapons of the unit or each one can choose.

 

I have to admit, it seems weird to me to have a special unit with nothing special, so should there be a new special rule for them?

 

Not sure about the virus grenades, this unit isn't meant to be a dedicated assault unit after all

 

 

I would however be inclined to give the sergeant the option for a single phosphex bomb

[Charlo]

Dear Mr. Bligh, here is your next DG unit!

 

Great job all! If only it were real, the models for these guys would look super grim. Would love to see some MKIII with built in rebreathers and super battered up boarding Shields.

 

I'd almost say give the option for them to all have Sickles... But that's probably not necessary.

[Doctor Perils]

Dear Mr. Bligh, here is your next DG unit!

 

Great job all! If only it were real, the models for these guys would look super grim. Would love to see some MKIII with built in rebreathers and super battered up boarding Shields.

 

I'd almost say give the option for them to all have Sickles... But that's probably not necessary.

 

Tbh, I've been contemplating a Night Lord unit giving them the Power Sickles to the whole unit. Possibly as dual wielded, possibly as a combination with a shield (combat or breacher)

[Hesh Kadesh]

Night Lords unit with Axe Rakes and Sickles, upgrade to Scythes, with the ability to make a Vector Strike, using the stats of a melee weapon they are equipped with?