[HH1.0] Blood Angels Tactica - Assault Cannons For Days

[Theredknight]

You also get a 5+ cover save for your assault squads deep striking in on t1. Which is all they need really as t2 you will be in combat.

 

The RoW pushes you to go assault squad heavy. Yes thy will be sorted, but then when they do you hopefully have more points to spend on goodies.

I'm going with a solid 3x 15 man assault squads to start with and 3X cortus dreads to back them up and shield them from view if possible.

I will have a Damocles as well meaning t1 i will deploy 2 cortus dreads with grav guns hopefully to knock out primary targets. (They will be cc based with chainfist)

I will be deploying 3 assault squads non acatter, this will deliver my praetor and consul up front.

 

T2, a high chance that my fire raptor will ds in non scatter, javelin and other dread drop pod.(maybe ranged shooting I'm not sure yet)

 

As they come in, I will try to get them Itl positions to support the charges of the cortus dreads and 3X assault quads.

 

It's fast, it's fluffy and hopefully will pack a good punch too.

 

Il play about with the list but these will be core units for me.

[Blindhamster]

Can't really compare legion rules + RoW rules to legion rules.

 

I'm sure day of revelations will be decent (or great) once the assault squads are fixed. But as it stands assault marines are simply bad and a poor points investment.

 

Day of sorrows is bad because as soon as your units hit half strength they stop scoring and count as dead. And it's only at that point they get the Fnp benefit.

 

I should point out - day of revelations is more or less exactly what I hoped for in a rite of war. It just doesn't fix the underlying issue with the assault marines themselves.

 

The list you posted is pretty similar to what I'd been thinking, except I wasn't planning on any dreads and would probably stick to 10 man squads. If I can fit a spartan with terminators in instead I'd probably do that.

[Charlo]

Id say that, for now, with the extra wounding potential, +1I on the charge and Hit & Run it's not too bad paying the points for assault marines.

 

You just need to take big units

[koran]

I dont know about you guys but every time I look at the Day of Revelation rules I look at the generic assault troop list RoW (same turn 1 drop and can only be snap shot at by enemy within 12") and I keep thinking that the snap fire is better than the 5+ Sv.  Not being easily shot at and then no blasts (at least if you're close) if awesome.

 

OK, obvious downside of everything having to drop in.  But with DoR thats probably the route you're going anyway.  Not having a Damocles is the only real downside IMHO.

[Blindhamster]

I dont know about you guys but every time I look at the Day of Revelation rules I look at the generic assault troop list RoW (same turn 1 drop and can only be snap shot at by enemy within 12") and I keep thinking that the snap fire is better than the 5+ Sv.  Not being easily shot at and then no blasts (at least if you're close) if awesome.

 

OK, obvious downside of everything having to drop in.  But with DoR thats probably the route you're going anyway.  Not having a Damocles is the only real downside IMHO.

 

DoR allows ALL jump infantry to arrive turn 1. The other RoW only allows half - so its less reliable. It also doesnt provide much in the way of bonuses outside of the snap shot thing. Whereas DoR does at least give us the same thing as 40k Red Thirst + all our guns are pinning.

[Hesh Kadesh]

No, DAV allows half to DS which all auto arrive turn 1. The rest can DS as normal or deploy as normal.

[Blindhamster]

Day of Revelations is all jump infantry arrive turn 1.

 

 

Cometh the Host: Jump Infantry squads which are part of this detachment must arrive via Deep Strike on the first turn of the game and do not need to roll Reserves

[Hesh Kadesh]

Cool story.

 

So does DAV.

[koran]

No, DAV allows half to DS which all auto arrive turn 1. The rest can DS as normal or deploy as normal.

Thats not right.  DAV says at least half come in first turn (not up to).  So you can have every assault squad come in.

 

I will agree the +1 initiative is big.  But (at least when you have typhons in your meta) the 5+ cover means nothing.  It not being able to shoot at all is awesome (as is the threat of plasma, etc).  Also the DoR giving pinning means very little when you have to run to spread out your assault squads anyway.

[Blindhamster]

cheers guys, just proving the point about BA rules being lazy :)

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

No, DAV allows half to DS which all auto arrive turn 1. The rest can DS as normal or deploy as normal.

Thats not right.  DAV says at least half come in first turn (not up to).  So you can have every assault squad come in.

 

That's not what the rules say though, is it?

 

HALF may be chosen as DAV which AUTOARRIVE TURN 1. The rest? Well, they can set up normally. No need to Deep Strike them. That is entirely correct.

 

And Blindhamster, I still don't understand by what you mean lazy. Incompetence in rules is shown throughout the rest of the book and evidenced, but lazy isn't something.

 

This is neither incompetent nor uncompetitive.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Hesh Kadesh

[koran]

 

 

No, DAV allows half to DS which all auto arrive turn 1. The rest can DS as normal or deploy as normal.

Thats not right.  DAV says at least half come in first turn (not up to).  So you can have every assault squad come in.

 

That's not what the rules say though, is it?

 

HALF may be chosen as DAV which AUTOARRIVE TURN 1. The rest? Well, they can set up normally. No need to Deep Strike them. That is entirely correct.

 

And Blindhamster, I still don't understand by what you mean lazy. Incompetence in rules is shown throughout the rest of the book and evidenced, but lazy isn't something.

 

This is neither incompetent nor uncompetitive.

 

 

 

The exact wording (pg189 of HH book 6; Retribution) is:

 

"At least half of the legion assault squads in the army must always enter play using the deep strike special rules. At the beginning of the controlling player's first tirn, this "Assault Vanguard" may depoly all of its legion assault squads at once."

 

The beginning AT LEAST to me says half or more of the assault squads.  If I have three assault squads having them all deepstriking this way means they all are.  All is "at least half".

 

Am I reading/interpreting this wrong?

 

Of course you could choose to have a squad not deepstrike this way (not sure why you would) but thats a choice, not something you are forced to do.  That would be if it said "half" or "up to half".

Edited February 24, 2016 by koran

[Terminus]

You can deep strike all the assault squads, because it says "at least half". Also, the within 12" can only snap fire limitation is only against the assault squads, not an enforced condition on all enemies within 12".

 

Take the Predator RoW.

Keep the Predator cannons though as you have to. All Preds are now fast.

Oh my Sanguinius this is beautiful.

Also it's 48 shots. You can take a pintle heavy flamer and replace it too

Predator rite of war might be tough since you have to have more infantry units than you do vehicles, and I assume that's individual vehicles.

 

For what it's worth, I wasn't taking anything personally.

I disagree on it being tfm plus, because tfm includes +1 to hit as well as wound, I concur that the fact it's 'always on' for BA is better than a circumstantial bonus of the same kind.

But for BA it's
+1 to wound.

For NL it's
+1 to hit and wound so long as you outnumber
And a 5+ cover save (again circumstantial)

Don't forget enforced night fighting for a 4+ cover in the open first turn. And initiative 5 in the dark. And chainglaives at squad level. Outnumbering is not an issue with a functional assault unit, preferred enemy volkite terror squads, and terminators (count as 2) that can teleport and thus are not bound by transport capacity. Until Blood Angels get their Primarch and some fancy unique units, Blood Angels would be crazy to try to get into a melee scrum with the Night Lords. If you forgive the pun, they'd straight up get murdered (or more like skinned, disemboweled, crucified, and then murdered as a mercy).

 

Now don't get me wrong, an unconditional +1 to wound is very nice, especially once you're talking T6+, but let me just tell you that as a Mechanicum player with a large contingent of Kill Bots, your best infantry-based counter to my automata are heavy weapon squads, sniper veterans with melta bombs, and every turn of fire you can buy them by giving me more important targets to shoot. Anything else, particularly melee based, and I welcome you with open arms (arms in this case being a whole lot of overwatch and S6 AP2 attacks at initiative 4 or 5 or 6).

 

The changes for the old Legions and the fact that that the new three weren't included (I assume we will get yet another Legion red book once the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves also get fully fleshed out), means there is a very good chance Blood Angels will undergo more changes. There are a bunch of Legions who get a pile of Legion benefits on top of special equipment, without too many drawbacks. Blood Angels currently have some nice gear (sword is auto-include on characters, assault cannons are good on attack bikes/predators/dreadnoughts, pistols are mostly negligible) and one Legionnaire perk in exchange for two significant drawbacks. It is certain to get better.

[Slips]

I like to think of these as Beta Rules that were released ahead of time in a book they weren't originally supposed to feature in as an "Extra Bonus" to give the players who were still waiting for their rules an opportunity / sneak peak as to how their Legions will end up playing without giving them the full package (because its incomplete).

 

Viewed this way, it means that, if enough people send Forgeworld Feedback on the Legion Rules, they're highly likely still in a position to effect changes since their current focus is getting Inferno out the door and done and bracing for any potential :cuss storms the internet might unleash if the absurdly high expectations of a very vocal minority are not met with the release of the TS and SW.

 

So, what does all that mean?

 

Dont immediately dismiss a newly released beta legion rules as utter tripe when you compare them to Legions who've had 2-3 FAQs and 4-5 books worth of releases to gain gradual improvements; reserve that judgement for when they actually get a full release. At that point, if they underperform, then the criticism will be more than valid.

 

I mean just crack open your copy of Massacre and look at how "meh" the Night Lords were before they got their FAQ and AoD v2.0 Updates.

 

Until then, test them out and send Forgeworld constructive feedback (ie: not an E-Mail that can be summarized as "you suck") and if enough of you do it consistently, it'll give Forgeworld a better idea of just what the players expect out of them and will hopefully adjust correctly.

 

I get that this is pretty much a cop-out answer of essentially "Deal with it /shades" but think of the alternative: Waiting 1-2+ more years before actually getting anything.

 

Its better than literally having nothing. I mean would y'all be content with "Furious Charge" or using EC rules in the interim?

[m0nolith]

Where is this sense of entitelment coming from that people are screaming bloody murder about our rules?!

Theyre fine! They're decent and thats ok.

To people who have been waiting for some Blood Angels stuff to be released before you start playing 30k, let me clue you in;

30k's codex (book?) creep is relatively low to non existent. When new things get released, be they rules for individual models, units, RoW or entire Legions, sometimes they end up being crap, sometimes they end up being good, but most of the time they are just "ok".

 

The Cerberus Tank Destroyer is a BEAUTIFUL model, but nobody wants to touch it with a 10 foot pole because of the crap rules.

FW does this sometimes, and good on them for having the gall to do it. They actually try to "balance" the game. 

 

Are NL rules better, maybe, but barely if at all.

 

As 'Ok" as our and NL Legion rules are, they cant hold a candle to legion rules for the Fists and the Alpha Legion. Now THOSE are solid (maybe a bit OP) legion rules!

But so what? Our rules are pretty damn decent and the DoR RoW is a solid, if not excellent rite, especially when we get Legion specific jump troops released down the line.

 

And I just got book 6 in the mail, and let me immediately say, FW got Blood Angels RIGHT!

They immediately give off that "old testament style wrathful angels who are brutal, unforgiving and bloody but look like works of art while doing it" vibe to them. 

 

/rant off

[Terminus]

Maybe drink less coffee? The only one screaming bloody murder is you. People are just saying there isn't much to discuss specifically with Blood Angels given their current options.

 

Also, creep is certainly a factor, as the extensive changes to the early legions demonstrates. New NL are on par with the Alphas (who now have one bad and one mediocre rite and one bad and one mediocre special unit), and Sons are now the top traitors in my opinion. Raven Guard were already vying for top spot, and got only better with the updates. Although honestly the upgrade did a great job balancing the Legions; whereas before there were clear tiers of excellent/good/middling, now we have just excellent and good.

 

Both varieties of feathered marine are a pretty good spot, all things considered. DA rules push purchases of bikes, skimmers and armor. BA rules push jump packs, predators and dreadnoughts. Both emphasize close combat with the Legionnaires so you have an idea how to build your troop choices that everyone needs. And you have some awesome upgrade parts, too (I've stolen half of the heads for my Alpha artificer Sgts).

 

There's nothing that should stop you from building for the future, and you know for a fact it can only get better.

 

I certainly wish we had even this level of info on the Thousand Sons, who have no rules at all and the current art direction doesn't thrill me. :(

Edited February 25, 2016 by Terminus

[Blindhamster]

Well summed up :)

 

I think the BA are playable for sure. And it's a better position than just furious charge and nothing else.

 

One import difference between the BA RoW and the Vanguard assault one, is the BA one works on all jump infantry, meaning praetor and command squad plus destroyers all benefit from 1st turn deep strike.

 

Also, the 5+ cover save is unconditional. Sure it's not as good as only snap shots against you, however the snapshot rule has the 12" caveat. A smart player will just target you with things more than 12" away.

 

Once we get fixed assault marines I think the RoW will be excellent but as it stands it's passable.

 

The special pistols aren't much use honestly, legion units already had access to flamer pistols and inferno pistols are too short range to be a threat in most circumstances.

 

More assault troops is definitely a no brainer though.

[Flint13]

Alright folks, ease it back on to actual IX Legion tactics and the like.

 

Whatever your feelings on the rules, those are the ones that the Blood Angels have and they aren't changing. Work with the tools you have. 

 

[Charlo]

Breachers seem like they could be unlikely winners in the list. If you go all out with them and devote a bit of kit into they they become a scary proposition to shift outside of a LOL TYPHON.

 

Attach a forge Lord with blade of Perdition and rad nades and an apothecary with whatever you desire and your unit now wounds most HH opponents on a 2+

 

Couple this with defensive grenades, FNP and invuln saves and this unit is tough to shift. The FL can even duel most other characters fairly well due to a 3++ and double wounds from the sword, that spill into the unit no less from a challenge :D

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Attach a forge Lord with blade of Perdition and rad nades and an apothecary with whatever you desire and your unit now wounds most HH opponents on a 2+

 

 

Pretty neat line of thought actually, but depending on the loadout one of these units will run at approx. 480 to 500 pts.  

 

They will dispense utter pain in melee yeah, but big scary templates (available much cheaper) will still be their undoing.

[Charlo]

Go big or go home :D

 

Just gotta have the counter measures like Leviathans and such in play.

 

They probably do well in a Spartan.

[Theredknight]

Or a kharbydis if you run the ba row. That actually seems like a good unit to trial out actually. Christ. 66 bodies in your face t1 potentially with dread support is.. Pretty terrifying! Sure youl lose some to attrition but..even a typhon could only remove one unit approx 280-300pts. Still leaves 45 in combat t2. Ouch..

I might see about knocking a list up including them actually.

[Flint13]

^That "all in your face" gambit could go spectacularly well or poorly depending on who you're across from. 

 

From just personal experience on the one hand, it'd be super hectic and scary for my Solar Auxilia to deal with.

 

On the other, I couldn't ask for a better gift with a bow for my World Eaters Berzerker Assault.  

[Terminus]

Like I was trying to say before, I don't think BA are in a position to be forcing engagements against combat specialists (and WE are a prime example who got even more brutal), and current list design should emphasize vehicles and big guns like a generic Legion list would. Sure, make that one unit of assault veterans who wound on 2+ with a Billy badass Praetor leading them, but otherwise I'd keep infantry purchases down to the essentials.

 

The assault rite won't be workable until assault marines are improved and/or they get a unique JP unit that can be compulsory troops. The defensive rite is just bad.

 

Or you could just run them as Blood Angel Black Shields on a secret mission.

[Charlo]

The great thing about breachers is that no assault bonuses get through thier Shields, plus you can be cheeky and throw a blind grenade apparently :D

 

I agree though, some good armour support is necessary, as well as Quad Mortars and such.