[HH1.0] White Scars Tactica

[Ironwithout]

 

 

 

 

Here's something I was discussing with Hesh that might be useful:

 

"Also, Dreadclaws are god tier for WS. It's an assault transport, but also gets +1 to cover save (read 3+ jink) when moving more than 12". It doesn't even specify that it has to be during the movement phase! Oh, and to top the cake, it gets rerolls of 1's to wound with the flame attack.

 

Oh, did I mention it's a fast attack slot...so that means you satisfy your 1 FA before HS usage for your LA rules?"

It would if it had the Legions Astartes special rule which is a real shame. Saying that your point does stand it is incredibly useful for WS just doesnt have all the benefits you listed

Maybe I misread the rumors, but I thought vehicles also get rerolls of 1's to wound and +1 to cover saves if they moved 12"?

 

As for the 3+ save, you get a 5+ jink (which is a cover save), +1 for flat out, +1 for LA:WS.

Just checked to make sure. It does specify vehicles but it still says with the LA:WS. Im assuming they put that in so we had no debate about whether Land Speeders got the benefit

 

Could you imagine if it was right though. Fire Raptors with 3+jink re rolling 1s to wound. Ouch

Lol a vehicle, but with LA:WS? That doesn't make sense :D

 

Care to explain?

Exactly. Wasn't really any reason for them to put vehicle in the rule. The swift action rule which gives +1 to cover and re roll 1s to wound comes under the rules for the legiones astartes White Scars rules. So a unit must have the legiones astartes rule in the first place to gain the Swift Action rule.

 

Doesn that make sense? Not sure I explained that too well lol

[Hesh Kadesh]

Why does it read 3+ jink? A jink save isn't a cover save? Just to clarify for me please so I can understand

There's no such thing as a Jink Save. There is a Jink special rule which grants a 4+ Cover Save.

 

The rumours specifically call out vehicles getting benefits from the LA, which means if you have the ability to move 12" during the movement phase (i.e, Fast vehicles, Sicarans, yeah?)

 

Just double checked though, the +1 Cover Save from the WS doesn't get Boosted by Skilled Rider (boo!). The reroll 1's is to wound is with shooting and CC, and in the same manner as the recent discussion in regards to the various Sabotage rules, it's not explicitly a Shooting or CC attack, so no rerolls. Not that anyone really bothered with using the Heat Blast except as an opportunity Hull point stripper. 

 

I think what Irnwithout is trying to say is that the bonus to Cover Saves is tied to the Legiones Astartes (White Scars) special rule, which explicitly replaces the Legiones Astartes special rule on all models within the Legiones Astartes Crusade Army List. If they don't have it, they don't get the benefits of the Legiones Astartes (White Scars) special rule, which includes vehicles. Essentially, it's saying that only vehicles with the Legiones Astartes (White Scars) special rule gets the ability to have a +1 to Cover when they meet the criteria. The only issue is that there's no model with that rule.

 

To put it another way, All models with Special Rule X get Special Rule Y, including unit types a, b and c. The only issue is that no model with unit c has special rule X so cannot get special rule y. It's the issue with FW's insistence on nested abilities but then cutting out the nesting parent ability.

 

Imagine a World Eaters list which granted all models with Furious Charge the Rage ability, including vehicles, but there are no vehicles with Furious Charge.

 

In talks of the Rite of War though, that Warlord on a Bike has well and slightly screwed up one of my favourite ideas for a list to date. mainly because I've got to make a new model for it.

 

However, slight rework;

 

Praetor; Paragon, Bike, Boarding Shield, Digi Weapons, Meltabombs, Cyber Eagle

ML2 Biomancy Librarian, Force Staff, Glaive, Bike, Artificer, Refractor, Meltabombs

Master of Signal, Artificer, Void Shield Harness if available

 

Outrider Squad, Glaive on Sergeant, Power Swords

[Compulsory Unit]

Plasma Support Squad x9

 

Dreadclaw

 

Allied SoH Forge Lord, Bike Rad Nades, Nuncio

 

It's not as elegant as it was meant to be (Pod comes down on FL Nuncio, Plasma and MoS bug out one way, use Eagle to splat a unit from the flank, while the foot Praetor and Foot Libby charge into things and repeatedly Hit and Run, and has just devolved into a generic Bikerstar with a super effective Plasma Squad, but that's more of a first world problem. I'm more annoyed I cannot use my Coteaz Weapon Swap as my White Scars.

[Ironwithout]

Thanks Hesh! Thats exactly what I was trying to say. While we are discussing what bother us. In all the rules it merely states "Skyhunters" or "Jetbikes" but when it says the Praeter must be mounted on a bike or Jetbike it actually states Scimiter pattern jetbike. So much for me convertine my Bullock pattern for my Praetor Edited February 14, 2016 by Ironwithout

[depthcharge12]

 

 

 

 

 

Here's something I was discussing with Hesh that might be useful:

 

"Also, Dreadclaws are god tier for WS. It's an assault transport, but also gets +1 to cover save (read 3+ jink) when moving more than 12". It doesn't even specify that it has to be during the movement phase! Oh, and to top the cake, it gets rerolls of 1's to wound with the flame attack.

 

Oh, did I mention it's a fast attack slot...so that means you satisfy your 1 FA before HS usage for your LA rules?"

It would if it had the Legions Astartes special rule which is a real shame. Saying that your point does stand it is incredibly useful for WS just doesnt have all the benefits you listed

Maybe I misread the rumors, but I thought vehicles also get rerolls of 1's to wound and +1 to cover saves if they moved 12"?

 

As for the 3+ save, you get a 5+ jink (which is a cover save), +1 for flat out, +1 for LA:WS.

Just checked to make sure. It does specify vehicles but it still says with the LA:WS. Im assuming they put that in so we had no debate about whether Land Speeders got the benefit

 

Could you imagine if it was right though. Fire Raptors with 3+jink re rolling 1s to wound. Ouch

Lol a vehicle, but with LA:WS? That doesn't make sense :D

 

Care to explain?

Exactly. Wasn't really any reason for them to put vehicle in the rule. The swift action rule which gives +1 to cover and re roll 1s to wound comes under the rules for the legiones astartes White Scars rules. So a unit must have the legiones astartes rule in the first place to gain the Swift Action rule.

 

Doesn that make sense? Not sure I explained that too well lol

Ok it makes sense now, but I think that it still extends to vehicles that are in a White Scars primary detachment no? They explicitly call it out.

 

I just think for brevity and ease of use they included that vehicle clause under the Legion Astartes rule.

[Ironwithout]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here's something I was discussing with Hesh that might be useful:

 

"Also, Dreadclaws are god tier for WS. It's an assault transport, but also gets +1 to cover save (read 3+ jink) when moving more than 12". It doesn't even specify that it has to be during the movement phase! Oh, and to top the cake, it gets rerolls of 1's to wound with the flame attack.

 

Oh, did I mention it's a fast attack slot...so that means you satisfy your 1 FA before HS usage for your LA rules?"

It would if it had the Legions Astartes special rule which is a real shame. Saying that your point does stand it is incredibly useful for WS just doesnt have all the benefits you listed

Maybe I misread the rumors, but I thought vehicles also get rerolls of 1's to wound and +1 to cover saves if they moved 12"?

 

As for the 3+ save, you get a 5+ jink (which is a cover save), +1 for flat out, +1 for LA:WS.

Just checked to make sure. It does specify vehicles but it still says with the LA:WS. Im assuming they put that in so we had no debate about whether Land Speeders got the benefit

 

Could you imagine if it was right though. Fire Raptors with 3+jink re rolling 1s to wound. Ouch

Lol a vehicle, but with LA:WS? That doesn't make sense :D

 

Care to explain?

Exactly. Wasn't really any reason for them to put vehicle in the rule. The swift action rule which gives +1 to cover and re roll 1s to wound comes under the rules for the legiones astartes White Scars rules. So a unit must have the legiones astartes rule in the first place to gain the Swift Action rule.

 

Doesn that make sense? Not sure I explained that too well lol

Ok it makes sense now, but I think that it still extends to vehicles that are in a White Scars primary detachment no? They explicitly call it out.

 

I just think for brevity and ease of use they included that vehicle clause under the Legion Astartes rule.

I dunno it seems a bit over the top. Do Sicarans or Raptors need to be even better? Raptors with a 3+ jink and re rolling 1s to wound. Sicarans with a dozer blade moving max out into a ruin now has potentially a 3+ cover and re rolling 1s. Seems a bit much. It could be argued as they ment vehicles with the Legion Astartes rule. As far as i am aware its only land speeders that have it. None the less thats still a vehicle.

Edited February 14, 2016 by Ironwithout

[depthcharge12]

I think they tried to balance that with the fast attack before heavy support clause, which is a small tax, but a tax nonetheless :)

 

Take into account that those vehicles doing flat out will be snap firing or whatnot. Plus there's limited directions for tanks and such to move, so it means they'll be closer to you in assault :devil: where they don't get cover saves or the wound modifiers.

[Ironwithout]

Dunno. May be worth putting it up in the rukes thread to see what people think

[Hesh Kadesh]

Thanks Hesh! Thats exactly what I was trying to say. While we are discussing what bother us. In all the rules it merely states "Skyhunters" or "Jetbikes" but when it says the Praeter must be mounted on a bike or Jetbike it actually states Scimiter pattern jetbike. So much for me convertine my Bullock pattern for my Praetor

FW's overspecificity is it's own downfall when at other's it's not. It's that same overspecificity which sees an agent of the emperor (Garro) unable to ride in the same transport vehicle as the guys he is a Sworn Brother to, because some spoon decided to clarify that Agents were sworn brothers on the same page that they banned Sworn Brothers from riding in allied transports.Applying that same level means that Garro cannot Deep Strike when attached to a squad, because despite being given the green light to deep strike, even when attached to a squad, he doesn't have the Deep Strike rule. While it's not basic, it literally involves writing a rule, loading up a PDF version of the rules, and "CTRL+F" until you find what bits you need. 

 

They do try though, and for all our RAEG we do actually know what they mean, pat them on the head, give them a £70 sweet/candy and tell them to sit in the corner while we ignore what they've written and play what we think it says anyway.

 

Raptors kill MEQ's and light vehicles. They can't do much more. Sicarans gib light vehicles and MEQ's in a pinch. Rerolling ones for them when they already have a 2+ to wound doesn't make a huge amount of difference, and their AP isn't low enough nor do they get rerolls to Pens to make it worth it. Reroll to 1's makes a Sicaran have a better chance at Rending, sure, but you don't get a reroll on a 2-5, so their overall kill rate isn't much better comparatively. A Nipple Sicaran though, as it might be targeting MC's of T9 or greater as the AdMech and Daemons start rolling out. 

[Caillum]

I reckon the reference to Vehicles with 'Legiones Astartes (White Scars)' might be a hint at things to come. 40k Space Marine Dreadnoughts got 'Chapter Tactics', and some Heresy ones, i.e. Cassian Dracos Reborn, gained Legiones Astartes.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah made no sense to me that dreads didn't get LA.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Let's not give Iron Hands Leviathans even more goodies, please.

[1ncarnadine]

It would sure help make up the crazy 40 point gap between Cortus and regular Contemptors now. And it'd make sense if the Cortus or even Leviathans didn't get it because of the nature of their sketchy interments.

 

Some LA rules would require clarifications for how the rules interact with Dreadnoughts/vehicles though, which would probably require a whole FAQ and... yeah, you know where I'm going.

Edited February 14, 2016 by LetsYouDown

[Slips]

I'd really prefer not to have Infiltrating Alpha Legion Dreadnoughts.

[Hesh Kadesh]

I'd really prefer not to have Infiltrating Alpha Legion Dreadnoughts.

How did I not think about Infiltrating Gravnaughts? Who cares about Pods when SURPRISE

[Slips]

Or, yknow, the possibility of Infiltrating Leviathans.

 

 

But about those White Scars?

[noigrim]

 

 

 

 

 

Here's something I was discussing with Hesh that might be useful:

 

"Also, Dreadclaws are god tier for WS. It's an assault transport, but also gets +1 to cover save (read 3+ jink) when moving more than 12". It doesn't even specify that it has to be during the movement phase! Oh, and to top the cake, it gets rerolls of 1's to wound with the flame attack.

 

Oh, did I mention it's a fast attack slot...so that means you satisfy your 1 FA before HS usage for your LA rules?"

It would if it had the Legions Astartes special rule which is a real shame. Saying that your point does stand it is incredibly useful for WS just doesnt have all the benefits you listed

Maybe I misread the rumors, but I thought vehicles also get rerolls of 1's to wound and +1 to cover saves if they moved 12"?

 

As for the 3+ save, you get a 5+ jink (which is a cover save), +1 for flat out, +1 for LA:WS.

Just checked to make sure. It does specify vehicles but it still says with the LA:WS. Im assuming they put that in so we had no debate about whether Land Speeders got the benefit

 

Could you imagine if it was right though. Fire Raptors with 3+jink re rolling 1s to wound. Ouch

Lol a vehicle, but with LA:WS? That doesn't make sense

 

Care to explain?

Exactly. Wasn't really any reason for them to put vehicle in the rule. The swift action rule which gives +1 to cover and re roll 1s to wound comes under the rules for the legiones astartes White Scars rules. So a unit must have the legiones astartes rule in the first place to gain the Swift Action rule.

 

Doesn that make sense? Not sure I explained that too well lol

 

dreads are a vehicle tough

[Ironwithout]

So as part of the legion RoW. Would that mean assault marines can outflank? They are classed as infantry?

[Hesh Kadesh]

 

I jest, but thata the point. Vehicles with X rule get Y bonus If Z condition is fulfilled. Problem is, there are no vehicles with X rule and if they did, those Dreads in particular would never qualify for condition Z.

 

Edit;

 

Who knows. If you say yes to that, you say yes to infiltrating Raven Guard Dark Fury, though.

Edited February 15, 2016 by Hesh Kadesh

[helterskelter]

Generally it's t2 charge anyway, infiltrate dark furies all you want it makes little difference because no T1 charge.

Same goes for assault marines. Not an idea to get your combat unit charged at. It should be doing the charging

[depthcharge12]

So I think there should be a condition that you can only WS list build when listening to Metallica's "Wherever I may Roam" :P

[Slips]

So I think there should be a condition that you can only WS list build when listening to Metallica's "Wherever I may Roam"

Or: Highway To Hell, Born To Be Wild and a few others in that general theme.

[Brother Pheidias]

 

So I think there should be a condition that you can only WS list build when listening to Metallica's "Wherever I may Roam"

Or: Highway To Hell, Born To Be Wild and a few others in that general theme.

 

"We are the Roadcrew" with Mötörhead?

[stang]

So aside from rock and broken records, how is everyone constructing their lists?

Has anyone developed a preference (for both HQ characters and Troops) for either mount- jetbike/bike over the other?

 

[Slips]

My Personal Preference is:

 

HQ:

 

Preator: Jetbike, Master-Crafted Paragon Blade, Iron Halo, Cyber-Hawk, Melta Bombs + anything else you can fit ie: Digital Weapons, 2nd Specialist Weapon, etc.

• Unlocks the RoW

Primus Medicae: Jetbike, Boarding Shield, Power Glaive, Melta Bombs + whatever else you want/can fit.

 

Forge Lord: Jetbike, Refractor Field, Cyber Familiar (for a flat 4++), Rad Grenades, Power Glaive, Melta Bombs + Whatever Else you can want.

 

Troops:

 

3 Jetbikes, Melta Bombs, 1 Volkite Culverin, Sarge + Power Glaive (Characters go Here)

6 Jetbikes, Melta Bombs, 2 Culverins

3 Plasma Outriders, Power Weapon, Sarge with Glaive

3 Plasma Outriders, Power Weapon, Sarge with Glaive

 

Points being available, this is what I'd go for.

[DietOfLiquor]

Dear god. I always forget about forge lords. Thanks for the heads up slip :P definitely going to add one now to mine!