[HH1.0] White Scars Tactica

[Charlo]

Especially when all the outriders then start the game 12" closer than expected with rapid fire plasma.

[GreyCrow]

Out of curiosity, I have trouble understanding the first rule of the Scars, can you guys help me ? How can infantry move more than 6" in the movement phase, and how a bike can move more than 12" in the movement phase ? (Vehicles I can get :p )

 

Does that mean that 6 full" is enough (or 12 in the case of bikes) ? Does every model have to move that, or is it the general position of the unit ?

 

Finally, when they mean reroll 1s to Wound for "all" attacks, does that mean both shooting and melee ? Or all melee attacks ?

 

Cheers !

[Slips]

Every Model in the unit has to move its full distance to get the buff and it has to be in a single continuous direction ie: you can't move forward 3" then back 3" for the buff; its 6" forward, sideways, backwards, etc.

 

The "More than" bit is probably just preventative/inclusive wording in the event that they get something like 40k Ad Mech's Dune Strider which adds 3" to Move, Run and Charge or whatever it actually does.

 

Re-roll 1's is for Shooting and CC, yes.

[GreyCrow]

Thanks !

 

That is a bit of a weird rule with a lot of funky abuse haha Picture this, a Rhino want to get into a specific spot that is 3" away to lost sight off a heavy support squad and get a 4+ cover save against something else.

So, typically you move 6" forward then Flat Out backwards ? There is gonna be some freaky dancing happening in WS armies.

 

EDIT : By the way, what vehicles have the LA special rules ? (Because the WS rule mentions vehicles, but I don't recall any vehicle with the LA rule ever).

Edited April 3, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Ironwithout]

Ignore the vehicles bit. It should never have been put in. No vehicles have the legion astartes special rules so it is not relevant.

[GreyCrow]

Even then, it's still a strange rule. What if the optimal firing position for the Jetbike squad is 10" ?

[Ironwithout]

Then they lose the re roll of a 1 to wound. The intention behind it is that they move as fast as possible at all times. Forever redeploying. You have to make the choice every turn, do you get into a safe position and lose the benefits or do you move towards the enemy guns blazing. Remember it all roles to wound though even in combat.

 

For example

 

If you move 12" in the movement phase then until your following turn you can re roll 1's. This is shooting, combat and even over watch.

 

If you move 10" then you don't get the benefit in the shooting phase but if you move 10" and then charge 2" you are at the 12" threshhold so you would gain the benefit from your assault phase until your next turn.

 

So the benefits roll over in to your opponents turn

 

Edited for being a dumb ass

Edited April 3, 2016 by Ironwithout

[GreyCrow]

Then they lose the re roll of a 1 to wound. The intention behind it id that they move as fast as possible at all times. Forever redeploying. You have to make the choice every turn, do you get into a safe position and lose the benefits or do you move towards the enemy guns blazing. Remember it all roles to wound though even in combat.

 

For example

 

If you move 12" in the movement phase then for the rest of the game turn you can re roll 1's. This is shooting combat and even over watch.

 

If you move 10" then you don't get the benefit in the shooting phase but if you move 10" and then charge 2" you are at the 12" threshhold so tou would gain the benefit from your assault phase for the rest of the game turn.

 

I'm not sure it's beneficiary to always move at full distance. If you manage to set up your entire movement plan for several turns then yes. I know moving fast is a good tool in battle, but moving fast for moving fast is a waste of energy :p

 

To get the bonus from a unit in reserve for example, you can only being it in a line formation according the limitations.

 

Regarding your charge example, no you wouldn't get the benefit, because you would have to end the movement phase at 12" and the 2 extra " you get when charging are in the assault phase.

So, technically, you would need to start your movement more than 12" away from the enemy in order to get that bonus. Even more, you would have to start more than 12" + their own movement.

 

It's a very very strange rule. It would be extremely awesome if it was the total movement during the turn, it would make some pretty cool runs and turbo boosts, but the fact that it's limited to the movement phase is weird.

[Slips]

It might not always be beneficiary to move full distance but the White Scars care not for your petty mortal concerns. They were:

 

And will go fast all the time. And its not a waste of energy when your vehicle +/- has unlimited fuel and your a Space Marine in Power Armor.

 

Its playing to their fluff.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Slipstreams

[GreyCrow]

Don't take me by my feelings with that video ! :p

 

I know it's playing to their fluff but it has deeper tactical implications : the only time where I would see it 100% useful if when playing only with super feints by voluntarily positioning your units in a position of weakness when you have the first turn to provoke a response from the enemy, so that you know you will reposition in a better position.

 

Picture this : you throw your Jetbikes completely on the open field, at least 12" and at most 36" from a position of safety. The opponent will counter deploy to take advantage of the weak deployment, then you move 12" into that direction and turbo boost to get to the point you want. Against terrain with 5+ cover, you can get a total of 3+ with Skilled Rider and the bonus from moving.

 

I understand the general idea of the Scars is about feints and counters, but this is taking it a bit to the extreme :p

[Ironwithout]

 

 

Then they lose the re roll of a 1 to wound. The intention behind it id that they move as fast as possible at all times. Forever redeploying. You have to make the choice every turn, do you get into a safe position and lose the benefits or do you move towards the enemy guns blazing. Remember it all roles to wound though even in combat.

 

For example

 

If you move 12" in the movement phase then for the rest of the game turn you can re roll 1's. This is shooting combat and even over watch.

 

If you move 10" then you don't get the benefit in the shooting phase but if you move 10" and then charge 2" you are at the 12" threshhold so tou would gain the benefit from your assault phase for the rest of the game turn.

I'm not sure it's beneficiary to always move at full distance. If you manage to set up your entire movement plan for several turns then yes. I know moving fast is a good tool in battle, but moving fast for moving fast is a waste of energy :p

 

To get the bonus from a unit in reserve for example, you can only being it in a line formation according the limitations.

 

Regarding your charge example, no you wouldn't get the benefit, because you would have to end the movement phase at 12" and the 2 extra " you get when charging are in the assault phase.

So, technically, you would need to start your movement more than 12" away from the enemy in order to get that bonus. Even more, you would have to start more than 12" + their own movement.

 

It's a very very strange rule. It would be extremely awesome if it was the total movement during the turn, it would make some pretty cool runs and turbo boosts, but the fact that it's limited to the movement phase is weird.

The second part of the rule includes the assault phase so it would count. I cant post the exact wording as per forum rules but the second part states movement/ assault phase.

 

I understand what your saying about the wording being a bit off and its not just the Scars rules that are like that. But personally I dont see the problem. The rules reflect the flavour of the legion and to change it could make them better then they already are and I am fed up aleeady of people telling me the army I have been waiting for for years is OP.

 

I do agree its not always beneficial to move flat out. That choice comes in the game

Edited April 3, 2016 by Ironwithout

[Slips]

Dont forget that jetbikes still have a 2+ Armor Save so unless Ap2 is flying your way, you dont need to jink.

 

The Scars are ALL about speed, the hunt and going to the extreme for the thrill and challenge.

 

Thats kinda the point.

 

So what you're talking about is totally in character so far. You might have a hard time getting behind them if you cant accept that this is how the Vth Legion plays :p

 

Think of it this way: You will More or less always have a speed advantage over your opponent using Chogorian Brotherhood. That means if you have to deploy first (you'll usually want to go 2nd with Scars, I feel, depending on mission), you deploy further back and see what your opponent does. On your turn, move 12" and Shoot with Re-rolls To-Wound where applicable.

 

If you're going 2nd you have a LOT of leeway in how you counterdeploy thanks to speed that doesnt sacrifice any of your shooting.

 

You also have Hit & Run Bikes meaning you can just slingshot freely across the board.

 

If you deploy and move 12" and that leaves you in a bad spot, that means you didn't project/plan far enough ahead.

[GreyCrow]

 

The second part of the rule includes the assault phase so it would count. I cant post the exact wording as per forum rules but the second part states movement/ assault phase.

 

 

 

The rule is "ends the Movement phase at least 6" from the point where it began the phase, in the Movement phase and/or Assault Phase it gains the following benefits until the beginning of its controlling players' turn"

 

Perhaps the rule meant "ends a movement a tleast 6" from the point where it began the Movement or Assault Phase", but then it is poorly written. A friend wrote me the rules, so perhaps he got the wording wrong, if someone could confirm that'd be great. The way I read it is that a unit has to move its maximum distance in the Movement phase (moving in the Assault phase is irrelevant) and only that condition triggers obtaining the benefit from the rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

@Slip : I never looked at the Scars as slowboating their way on the board. But for a Legion that is supposedly the masters of speed, I find it weird that they absolutely have to go full speed to be efficient, mastery implies temperance :p 

 

Agree with deploying second. Armies that are all about power and resilience are best deployed first, armies that are all about mobility and guile are best deployed second. When you have indiscriminate firepower and unlimited (or quasi) reach, you don't really care as much where you deploy but how you deploy. Armies with more tricks or mobility than dakka are much more concerned about knowing where to deploy to not get noped (as a side note, this is how I managed to not get tabled by a beasty Tau build today :D ).

 

I guess that this is a rule that keeps options open. When you can manage to not get shot at, it also means that you won't really get to shoot at much and you don't really need the benefit of the rule. When you commit though, or have no alternative but to get shot at even in cover at least you get some bonuses.

 

The true trick for Scars players would be to know when to pace themselves and think tactically rather than going for the full dakka/cover bonus all the time just because they have the rule :p

[Ironwithout]

 

 

The second part of the rule includes the assault phase so it would count. I cant post the exact wording as per forum rules but the second part states movement/ assault phase.

 

 

 

The rule is "ends the Movement phase at least 6" from the point where it began the phase, in the Movement phase and/or Assault Phase it gains the following benefits until the beginning of its controlling players' turn"

 

Perhaps the rule meant "ends a movement a tleast 6" from the point where it began the Movement or Assault Phase", but then it is poorly written. A friend wrote me the rules, so perhaps he got the wording wrong, if someone could confirm that'd be great. The way I read it is that a unit has to move its maximum distance in the Movement phase (moving in the Assault phase is irrelevant) and only that condition triggers obtaining the benefit from the rule. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

@Slip : I never looked at the Scars as slowboating their way on the board. But for a Legion that is supposedly the masters of speed, I find it weird that they absolutely have to go full speed to be efficient, mastery implies temperance :p

 

Agree with deploying second. Armies that are all about power and resilience are best deployed first, armies that are all about mobility and guile are best deployed second. When you have indiscriminate firepower and unlimited (or quasi) reach, you don't really care as much where you deploy but how you deploy. Armies with more tricks or mobility than dakka are much more concerned about knowing where to deploy to not get noped (as a side note, this is how I managed to not get tabled by a beasty Tau build today :D ).

 

I guess that this is a rule that keeps options open. When you can manage to not get shot at, it also means that you won't really get to shoot at much and you don't really need the benefit of the rule. When you commit though, or have no alternative but to get shot at even in cover at least you get some bonuses.

 

The true trick for Scars players would be to know when to pace themselves and think tactically rather than going for the full dakka/cover bonus all the time just because they have the rule :p

This is where we as players have to interpret the intention of the rules. If we follow your understanding of the rule that means we would only gain the benefit of the re roll to wound inthe movement and assault phase. That in itself would be fair. But it would also mean we would get +1 to cover only in the movement phase and assault which isnt useful at all. I understand where you are coming from but this is a debate we had when the scars rules first came out. And I also had an email from Forgeworld back then aswel. The intention of the rule is if you move 6"/12" in total over your move/ assault phase you gain the benefits until the start of your next turn.

 

Honestly do understand what you are saying but its an old debate that we already cleared up. We had a fair few when the new rules came out

Edited April 3, 2016 by Ironwithout

[GreyCrow]

 

This is where we as players have to interpret the intention of the rules. If we follow your understanding of the rule that means we would only gain the benefit of the re roll to wound inthe movement and assault phase. That in itself would be fair. But it would also mean we would get +1 to cover only in the movement phase and assault which isnt useful at all. I understand where you are coming from but this is a debate we had when the scars rules first came out. And I also had an email from Forgeworld back then aswel. The intention of the rule is if you move 6"/12" in total over your move/ assault phase you gain the benefits until the start of your next turn.

 

Honestly do understand what you are saying but its an old debate that we already cleared up. We had a fair few when the new rules came out

 

 

Definitely, I completely understand the meaning of your interpretation and I understand the necessity of rules as intended ;) When looking at an army list though, I only consider RAW for tabletop application because : 1) The writing is a fact that we can agree on for what it is ; 2) It avoids confusion ; 3) It saves time.

However, I'm all up for discussing out of battle and game the interpretation and come up with commonly accepted conventions ;)

 

______

 

Aside from Outriders, what would you guys consider interesting fire support unit for a White Scars army that uses both Skyhunters and transport mounted Tacticals as part of its line ? (I consider Skyhunters as line units rather than cavalry/fire support simply due to the fact that it has more tank than killing power compared to Outriders with Plasmas for example ;) ).

[Slips]

I'm Curious as to your reasoning behind classifying jetbikes that way.

Compared to Regular Bikes who can all have Twin-Linked Melta Guns and Melta Bombs (for the same cost as Plasma & Melta Bomb Bikes), the Jetbikes can only get 1in3 Multi-Meltas and Melta Bombs.

 

I wouldnt even bother with Mounted Tacticals. Go for mounted Tac Supports, Tac Vets, Terminators more or less anything is more useful than Tac Squads since they aren't a Tax anymore.

 

I'd personally build towards the following:

+++ White Scars (3000pts) +++

 

++ Legiones Astartes: Crusade Army List (Age of Darkness) (3000pts) ++

 

+ HQ (580pts) +

 

Legion Centurion (190pts) [Artificer Armour, Augury Scanner, Cyber-familiar, Legion Scimitar Jetbike with Heavy Bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Glaive, Rad Grenades, Refractor Field]

··Consul [Forge Lord]

 

Legion Centurion (160pts) [Legion Scimitar Jetbike with Heavy Bolter, Melta Bombs, Power Armour, Power Glaive, Refractor Field]

··Consul [Primus Medicae]

 

Legion Praetor (230pts) [Artificer Armour, Digital Lasers, Iron Halo, Legion Scimitar Jetbike with Heavy Bolter, Mastercraft a Single Weapon, Melta Bombs, Paragon Blade]

··Master of the Legion [Chogorian Brotherhood]

 

+ Troops (950pts) +

 

Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (190pts) [Melta Bombs, Multi-Melta, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters]

··Sky Hunter Sergeant [Power Glaive]

 

Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (190pts) [Melta Bombs, Multi-Melta, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters]

··Sky Hunter Sergeant [Power Glaive]

 

Legion Jetbike Sky Hunter Squadron (190pts) [Melta Bombs, Multi-Melta, 3x Space Marine Sky Hunters]

··Sky Hunter Sergeant [Power Glaive]

 

Legion Outrider Squad (190pts) [3x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun]

 

Legion Outrider Squad (190pts) [3x Legion Space Marine Outrider, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon, Twin-linked Plasma Gun]

 

+ Elites (305pts) +

 

Legion Terminator Squad (305pts) [Anvillus Pattern Dreadclaw Drop Pod, Cataphractii Terminator Armour with Combi-bolter and Power Weapon, Chainfist, 4x Legion Terminators, 3x Power Fist]

··Legion Terminator Sergeant [Power Fist]

 

+ Fast Attack (210pts) +

 

Primaris-Lightning Strike Fighter (210pts) [battle Servitor Control, Ground-tracking Auguries, 2x Two Kraken penetrator heavy missiles]

 

+ Heavy Support (955pts) +

 

Legion Fire Raptor Gunship (210pts) [Reaper Autocannon battery]

 

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought Talon (375pts)

··Leviathan Siege Dreadnought [Cyclonic Melta Lance, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, Leviathan Siege Drill, Phosphex Discharger]

 

Leviathan Siege Dreadnought Talon (370pts)

··Leviathan Siege Dreadnought [Grav-flux Bombard, Legion Dreadnought Drop Pod, Phosphex Discharger]

 

+ Legion +

 

Legion Astartes [Loyalist, V: White Scars]

 

1. 5 MSU Scoring Bike Units.
2. Melta Bombs for Days.
3. 2 Leviathans Dropping in T1
4. Forge Lord has a 2+/4++/5+++ to tank stuff in place of the Praetor if required and also brings Rad Grenades
5. Preator also has a 2+/4++/5+++ standard loadout
6. Primus has 2+/5++/5+++ and makes the unit of jetbikes he joins 2+/5+++
7. They're also all T5 so don't get ID'd by S8 or S9
8. Due to the above, in the first round of CC, the Paragon Blade and Glaives in AP2 mode are wounding on 2's Re-Rolling 1's then you hit and run out on their turn if possible and do it all over again.
9. Primaris will drop in to deal with anything heavy left over.
10. Terminator Squad drops in and cleans up. Choice of TDA but when with Cataphractii for the 4++ also provide a 3rd pod for DPA to guarantee both Leviathans dropping in.
11. Took Multi-Meltas on the Jetbikes for an S8 AP1 Hit and chance to blow up heavy stuff but can be swapped to a Culverin instead for Anti-Infantry especially due to Armored Ceramite.
12. Fire Raptor drops in and goes dakka as one does. Can be swapped for a 3 Man Outrider Squad with TL Melta Guns and Melta Bombs; use the remaining points to give combi-weapons to the Terminators.

[GreyCrow]

Pretty simple : in my way to look at units, I classify them as 3 types :

- Line units (Tacticals, Assault, etc, basically the units that provide good survivability for the points. Yes, Assaults provide good survivability due to the ease to hide them but that's another point)

- Line elite

- Cavalry

 

To be considered a cavalry unit, I use 2 criteria :

- Extremely high damage

- Extremely good damage projection (range and mobility)

 

Line elite are any unit that doesn't fit in either line or cavalry. This include most Elite and faction Elite. Usually a Line Elite will be something that is slightly better at something than a typical line unit with a similar engagement profile (Terminators, Dreadnoughts, Mor Deythan, etc). Transports fit in this category. Some units, depending on their loadout, can be either Line Elite or Cavalry. For example, Tactical Support squads with Flamers are more line Elite, but Tactical Support squads with Plasmaguns in a Pod in some ROWs are cavalry due to their high damage and high damage projection. High damage melee units I consider Line Elite because they have very low damage projection (close combat basically). Finally, anything that doesn't have melee capability is neither a line or line elite except if it has a transport capability.

Line and Line Elite I use primarily as board control while Cavalry is pure damage and area denial.

 

For the points, I'm not particularily thrilled by the damage of Skyhunters. However, they do have amazing resilience (T5, 2+, Jink) and mobility. Which makes them excellent board control tools with a more than decent damage output. As such, I don't consider them cavalry, but very good line elite units.

 

Obviously, this framework is purely personal, but I find it elegant to use when building my lists

Edited April 4, 2016 by GreyCrow

[Ironwithout]

This is a link to the thread in the rules section with the origional conversation. Feel free to have a look aswel ☺

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/318939-how-does-swift-action-actually-work/?do=findComment&comment=4333892

 

One of them anyway lol

Edited April 4, 2016 by Ironwithout

[Wolf Lord Loki]

Whats peoples opinion on assault squads?

 

I've tried running 15 as a blob but they tend to suffer from "available target syndrome"

 

Would fielding more help so a squad of 20 or two squads of 10?

 

With their jump packs surely they could be prime candidates for the Scars wound and to hit bonus (from the eagle). Also the 6+ cover save might make them more survivable

[Slips]

20 Assault Marines would be REALLY unwieldy and an even bigger target, tbh.

 

I'd go for 2 10-15 man Squad, as expensive as they may be vs a full 20 man squad, it gives you a bit more flexibility and maneuverability while giving you a bit more in the way of Critical Mass without leaving you with a single unwieldy blob of marines.

 

If you're willing to invest a bit more into this particular route, you can attach a Vigilator to one or both squads to have a Cameleoline (Stealth) and Scout.

 

That mean you can Outflank them if necessary, Scout 12" (or is it 6"?) and get a 5+ Cover Save if you move full distance. If you're using Dreads in Dreadpods in the list, dropping them in between your enemy and the Assault Marines which would give them Shrouded if getting shot at through the Pod. So, All told, you'd have a 3+ Cover Save in the open.

 

It requires a lot of pieces to fall into place and a HEFTY investment but its one way to make assault marines more durable. The only thing about this particular tactic is that pretty much anyone can do it so its no unique in any way and some might be able to do it better like Blood Angels and Death Guard with their RoWs since they give them a 5+ Cover Save to start with meaning that they can get a 2+ Cover Save in the Open when doing this.

 

You can apply the same tactic to bikes, however if you wanted to give it a White Scars Twist. The only problem is that Vigilators can't take Bikes, iirc, so are stuck with Jetpacks which equates to no turbo boosting if you want them to stick together. It means you get a pretty decent Cover Save without having to Jink which means no snap shooting should it come into play.
 

[Wolf Lord Loki]

What about the other Rites of War?

 

Ive been thinking this evening about how the Recon company mashes well with our basic legion rules.

 

It enhanses our already good opportunity to Seize the Initative.

 

Anything scouting gets shrouded so our bikes get a cover save to protect them during the first turn when they are most vunerable.

 

Plus as was said the vigilator can help other units get shrouded too.

 

Heavy support might be an issue but again we can have one unit arrive on a 2+ so back up would be on its way!!

 

Iirc recob squads can take a storm eagle as a dedicated transport so we can bring in aerial support without filling a heavily contested FA slot

[Unknown Legionnaire]

Recon Company is ace when combined with White Scars rules.

It allows for a better utilisation of infantry in a WS list and suddenly makes the inclusion of a Cyber Hawk a really nice prospect.

[Resonance]

And in case anyone is wondering where to get cyber hawk, the WS deathwatch marine has a great little one

[Charlo]

I am a huge fan of the Recon Company RoW.

 

Outriders in it are really sick. Shrouded because they scout is incredible.

 

You can get some Alpha Legion level trickery of +1 AND re-roll to the roll to determine turn order/Seize the Initiative ALSO re-roll first reserve roll of each turn.

 

Seems very powerful in quick strikes with plasma riders that then can tank the incoming fire pretty well.

[depthcharge12]

Has anyone thought about a Praevian with dark fire Castellax?

 

Slap the Parthinian serpent bow on him for long range (it always shoots at full BS, even moving as a heavy weapon :evil:) and extra S6 AP2. Now as long as you move 6" and hit with the bow, you have darkfire arrays rerolling to hit and wound!!!!

 

Muwahahaha!

 

Suck on that non plains dwellers!!!