The Return of Celestine

[tvih]

As far as not using her against someone like Abaddon on the tabletop... Well, at least Abaddon wouldn't be wrecking the rest of the arny, even if the same can then be said of Celestine herself. Soooo... Situational :P

[A.T.]

Didn't Saint Sabbat have a running with Gaunt's Ghosts?

 

Sabbat predates the sororitas though.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Didn't Saint Sabbat have a running with Gaunt's Ghosts?

 

Sabbat predates the sororitas though.

 

 

Who cares. She reincarnated in 773.M41 and helped the Ghosts. They might as well make a conversion based on the Celestine model and use her rules to represent Saint Sabbat.

[A.T.]

Who cares. She reincarnated in 773.M41 and helped the Ghosts. They might as well make a conversion based on the Celestine model and use her rules to represent Saint Sabbat.

 

I just mean in the sense that it's logical that Sabbat would be running around with non-sororitas forces.

[Frater Cornelius]

 

Who cares. She reincarnated in 773.M41 and helped the Ghosts. They might as well make a conversion based on the Celestine model and use her rules to represent Saint Sabbat.

 

I just mean in the sense that it's logical that Sabbat would be running around with non-sororitas forces.

 

 

Yeah, definitely. Imperial Guard in general are a good pick, so I hope they have access to Celestine to represent Sabbat ;)

[Servant of Dante]

*nod* well, yeah. Actually, it's kinda cool that Celestine is comparable to Dante at this point :D and yeah. The Samguinor is not easy to use, mostly because he refuses to be an Independent Character for some reason so he has to run around by himself.

 

I like having units do cool stuff, but I like to have 1 or 2 centerpiece modes in the army that are individually scary to most things, and new Celestine is certainly sounding more scary than she ever has before :P

 

As to Saint Sabaat, the only fluff I've seen about her is from the Liber Sororitas. There might be more that I'm unaware of. (Pause to make sure people heard that)

 

Anyway, from that, Sabaat could easily have been a Celestine like character, or a normal person, or she could have not existed at all and the stories about her came from who knows where. But like I said, there might be newer fluff on her, and what I've read certainly includes the possibility of Sabaat being basically Celestine.

 

Oh yeah I wouldn't begrudge the IG using Celestine. I will shake my head if she starts running around with Deathwatch or Dark Angels or whatever, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

[ERJAK]

 

 

Well, Dante is I 6 with Hit and Run, so there's already that opportunity, and with him being S6 AP 2 and hitting at initiative (for just a few more points than Celestine+friends apparently)

He's a few points more with ~4 wounds on the charge against T4 2+, has a melta pistol, 4 wounds of eternal warrior, some other odds and ends. Hits a little softer against low toughness 3+ or worse saves but harder against big targets like wraightknights and magnus.

Though probably better off assaulting from deepstrike with his golden host formation than hanging out with a deathstar - there are always white scars for hit and run.

 

If i'm not mistaken Celestine is now the same cost as the Sanguinor? Another AP3 sword user.

Actually GW faq-ed it that CT get shut off by ANY marine force joining their unit other than their own. That's why people use Celestine and Sammael instead of Khan.

[Plasmablasts]

*nod* well, yeah. Actually, it's kinda cool that Celestine is comparable to Dante at this point :D and yeah. The Samguinor is not easy to use, mostly because he refuses to be an Independent Character for some reason so he has to run around by himself.

 

I like having units do cool stuff, but I like to have 1 or 2 centerpiece modes in the army that are individually scary to most things, and new Celestine is certainly sounding more scary than she ever has before :P

 

As to Saint Sabaat, the only fluff I've seen about her is from the Liber Sororitas. There might be more that I'm unaware of. (Pause to make sure people heard that)

 

Anyway, from that, Sabaat could easily have been a Celestine like character, or a normal person, or she could have not existed at all and the stories about her came from who knows where. But like I said, there might be newer fluff on her, and what I've read certainly includes the possibility of Sabaat being basically Celestine.

 

Oh yeah I wouldn't begrudge the IG using Celestine. I will shake my head if she starts running around with Deathwatch or Dark Angels or whatever, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter.

St Sabbat originally emerged in Abnett's Gaunt's Ghosts series. The whole series is set during the campaign to retake the Sabbat Worlds that she previously conquered but had subsequently fallen to The Archenemy. She has a background presence through much of the series but more so in books 4-7, Honour Guard through to Sabbat Martyr, the last of which is particularly focussed on her.

[Servant of Dante]

Thanks!

[BlackScorpion22]

Monday morning and still no shaky cellphone pics, how can this be?

 

Edit: I am having trouble finding the appropriate posts, what was the reasoning by which we determined that Celestine acts as an indepedent character despite being joined by the two gemini? If it is just that "Independent Character" is listed under her special rules then I don't think that is good enough, but if the gemini are explained as working like Tau drones or Space Wolves fenrisian wolves then that would be more legitimate.

[dracpanzer]

We haven't seen anything about it yet, but that was the claim by several.  I'm still in a wait and see mode.

[Banjulhu]

So Greyfax it seems is an ex-Sororitas that does not believe in saints. I wonder if she was kicked out of the church.

 

Also if she was brought up in a Schola and then a temple I wonder if she herself will be an unsanctioned psyker.

[Montford]

I saw the video for Greyfax this morning and I am now very much looking forward to getting the Triumverate. Hopefully they will post a video about Celestine soon!

[Servant of Dante]

So Greyfax it seems is an ex-Sororitas that does not believe in saints. I wonder if she was kicked out of the church.

 

Also if she was brought up in a Schola and then a temple I wonder if she herself will be an unsanctioned psyker.

ugh. Well, if she was a Sororitas, she was raised in a Schola Progenium. However, there's no way (imo) that a psyker would get into the Sisterhood, latent or otherwise. They would be found through genetic testing and sent off to the Adeptus Astra Telepathica I'd think. The not believing in Saints thing would probably have developed after she left the Schola (if she did go to one) since as far as I know they are pretty good at indoctrinating kids in the Imperial Cult.

[Servant of Dante]

Not going to touch that Fall of Cadia thread with a comment like this, but assuming Greyfax was a Sister, am I seriously the only one bothered that she somehow, as an extremely powerful psyker (by loyalist human standards, and compared to many Librarians) was somehow raised from infancy in a Schola then went through a Novitiate for the Sisterhood, and no one ran a single genetic test on her? *sigh* well, I'm cutting myself off right there. :)

 

Hum maybe she could have been a Sister on San Leor pre-reign of blood? But that would beg the question how she got into space and became an Inquisitor. And though she could have joined it when it was founded, the Ordo Hereticus didn't exist till the Reformation

[Banjulhu]

I have less issue with her being a psyker, a lot of the dark heresy fluff that goes much deeper into the non-military side of the Imperium's workings suggests that it is quite easy for psykers to fall through the cracks and if she is a latent psyker which is a possibility she would not have anything to be detected to begin with when going through schola.

[Isolia]

Sometimes, throughout history, people have been raised in / to orders or societies they were supposed to be banned from in order to watch them, protect them, hide them. So there could be a narrative arc too about her being on the sisterhood to prevent her from learning her power, or to hide her from someone or something. Then it all went breastplates-up when she 'awakened' to her capabilities, or was discovered, or through other schemes.

 

Might be an explanation

[Banjulhu]

Willingness to defend aspects of the background of Greyfax aside I still think she one of the dumbest and ill thought through characters GW have come up with for a good long while.

I may even have to take away Draigo's worst concept ever trophy.

[BlackScorpion22]

This whole Greyfax conversation is pretty tangential to the point of this thread (dare I say it borders off-topic material?), but ya her back-story and feelings about Celestine seem to have been shoehorned in. I wonder if GW wanted to introduce a low-value character ahead of release of any Loyalist Primarchs to test-write the reaction that pre-heresy characters would feel towards the modern Imperium? I am likely giving them too much credit as that would require quite a bit of foresight, and it is more likely that they wanted to introduce some cheesy soap opera drama between the main Imperial figures of the Fall of Cadia. Along similar lines I think that Trazyn zipping around dropping in Imperial troops is 50% Deus Ex Machina and 50% a clumsy set-up for releasing a primarch from his stasis collection.

[ERJAK]

This whole Greyfax conversation is pretty tangential to the point of this thread (dare I say it borders off-topic material?), but ya her back-story and feelings about Celestine seem to have been shoehorned in. I wonder if GW wanted to introduce a low-value character ahead of release of any Loyalist Primarchs to test-write the reaction that pre-heresy characters would feel towards the modern Imperium? I am likely giving them too much credit as that would require quite a bit of foresight, and it is more likely that they wanted to introduce some cheesy soap opera drama between the main Imperial figures of the Fall of Cadia. Along similar lines I think that Trazyn zipping around dropping in Imperial troops is 50% Deus Ex Machina and 50% a clumsy set-up for releasing a primarch from his stasis collection.

Personally, based on the a few passages from the leaked fluff, I think she exists to be someone who Celestine can win over to prove she is genuinely good.(if not straight up 'will they, won't they?')

[Servant of Dante]

This whole Greyfax conversation is pretty tangential to the point of this thread (dare I say it borders off-topic material?), but ya her back-story and feelings about Celestine seem to have been shoehorned in. I wonder if GW wanted to introduce a low-value character ahead of release of any Loyalist Primarchs to test-write the reaction that pre-heresy characters would feel towards the modern Imperium? I am likely giving them too much credit as that would require quite a bit of foresight, and it is more likely that they wanted to introduce some cheesy soap opera drama between the main Imperial figures of the Fall of Cadia. Along similar lines I think that Trazyn zipping around dropping in Imperial troops is 50% Deus Ex Machina and 50% a clumsy set-up for releasing a primarch from his stasis collection.

My existence on this forum is making at-best-tangentially on-topic posts but point taken/ However, Greyfax seems to be pretty ties to Celestine, and I really don't know it merits its own thread, but at the end of the day I'm not a Mod, so it's not my decision to make

Well, I'm still not buying Greyfax, but that's OK, I've already decided I dislike the Fall of Cadia fluff I'll just laugh at her.

Willingness to defend aspects of the background of Greyfax aside I still think she one of the dumbest and ill thought through characters GW have come up with for a good long while.

I may even have to take away Draigo's worst concept ever trophy.

Of course, if people like Greyfax, that's fine, but with Sisters being trained at exactly 2 places in the galaxy (the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum), there are hardly many cracks to fall through. And I don't see any reason for the Sisters to harbor a witch.

Part of me likes Drago, but that part of me also sees him as he appears in TTS (completely insane but unstoppable)

[Plasmablasts]

Greyfax believing in the concept of saints and yet being reluctant to accept Celestine at face-value is quite compatible with both human nature in general and with her status as an Inquisitor.

 

An Inquisitor's first question is never "Could they be lying?"; it's "Why are they lying?"

[Banjulhu]

Of course, if people like Greyfax, that's fine, but with Sisters being trained at exactly 2 places in the galaxy (the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum), there are hardly many cracks to fall through. And I don't see any reason for the Sisters to harbor a witch.

 

Although the six major orders of the battle sisters have their HQs on either Terra or Opheilia VII they are a lot more split up and training and deployment happens in much smaller garrisons/temples spread out over the Imperium so that does leave more wiggle room.

 

My thinking on Greyfax is getting worse. The more I think about it the more I really think there is a possible background for her that would make a lot of sense and would actually make her a fantastic kind of character to have in a Dark Heresy game if GW actually spent time on explaining it.

 

The shame about it is that it is the journey for her would be a hell of a lot more interesting than the destination she reached.

 

She would be actually be endearing if we got to see some of the internal conflict between her extreme puritan beliefs that have been taught to her throughout her time with the Sororitas and her being a full on unsanctioned psyker that gets away with it because she is an asset of the Inquisition and so above the rules.

 

From there you can start to introduce how the puritan Ordo Hereticus members veiw her as unclean and a threat, let readers see how the very people Greyfax agrees and shares common ground with are her greatest detractors and enemies. And then once you get people to understand what Greyfax is and soul crushing life she has lived then you introduce her to Celestine, a being with unearthly powers far beyond even her own, one that does not suffer any of the perils of being a psyker but seemingly gains even more benefit and most importantly how Celestine is a person who is loved for it by the people around her.

 

Show people a little of Greyfax's humanity and suddenly she becomes a lot more understandable.

 

But that is not going to happen. All we are going to get is an extreme Puritan that barks and curses at the "Witch" at every opertunity without real explanation.

[Gothical]

 

She would be actually be endearing if we got to see some of the internal conflict between her extreme puritan beliefs that have been taught to her throughout her time with the Sororitas and her being a full on unsanctioned psyker that gets away with it because she is an asset of the Inquisition and so above the rules.

 

I take a small issue with this bit - all psykers that are in Imperial employ are sanctioned. Greyfax can only be an Inquisitor with psychic powers because she has been assessed and sanctioned by other Imperial authorities.

 

"For a man to wield the powers of the Warp he must first have been tested and tried, and branded worthy to do so by the agents of the Emperor. Any man who has not been so approved is an unclean witch and will be purged by the Inquisitor's own Emperor-bestowed powers lest the beasts of the Warp enslave his soul." (Codex: Witch Hunters, Ordo Hereticus Psychic Powers, Hammer of the Witches)

 

It's one of the key points of background (and hypocrisy of) that there is a difference between sanctioned psykers and unsanctioned psykers (witches), and between psychic ability and sorcery (witchcraft).

 

Now, how this interacts with her Sororitas background I am not sure, and that is an interesting subject of discussion. Out of interest, where is this detail mentioned, for I have been back through the promo/leaked images and Warhammer Community video and can't find any mention - is it in the latest White Dwarf?

[Banjulhu]

 

 

She would be actually be endearing if we got to see some of the internal conflict between her extreme puritan beliefs that have been taught to her throughout her time with the Sororitas and her being a full on unsanctioned psyker that gets away with it because she is an asset of the Inquisition and so above the rules.

 

I take a small issue with this bit - all psykers that are in Imperial employ are sanctioned. Greyfax can only be an Inquisitor with psychic powers because she has been assessed and sanctioned by other Imperial authorities.

 

"For a man to wield the powers of the Warp he must first have been tested and tried, and branded worthy to do so by the agents of the Emperor. Any man who has not been so approved is an unclean witch and will be purged by the Inquisitor's own Emperor-bestowed powers lest the beasts of the Warp enslave his soul." (Codex: Witch Hunters, Ordo Hereticus Psychic Powers, Hammer of the Witches)

 

It's one of the key points of background (and hypocrisy of) that there is a difference between sanctioned psykers and unsanctioned psykers (witches), and between psychic ability and sorcery (witchcraft).

 

Now, how this interacts with her Sororitas background I am not sure, and that is an interesting subject of discussion. Out of interest, where is this detail mentioned, for I have been back through the promo/leaked images and Warhammer Community video and can't find any mention - is it in the latest White Dwarf?

 

 

The expanded background in the Dark Heresy books has unsanctioned psykers as part of the Inquisition, it is even part of possible character advances in the later game. The reasoning is that the Inquisitorial Mandate like the Rogue Traders Warrent of Trade allows the bearer to speak with the voice of the Emperor and superceed the laws of the Imperium. So whilst the rules say this must be done the Inquisition can quietly go "No Thanks".