8th Edition: Zeal Rising

[BitsHammer]

I do not like that chainsword special rule.

 

I understand why it is there, but it feels like shoe-horning to me to maintain the number of attacks from the previous edition. Also, it will play against some models. I'm thinking that ministorum priests for instance had "a laspistol and CCW" so if you used a model with a chainsword you get an extra attack, if you used a model with, say, a (non-power) hammer, you don't.

 

I fear the same problem will come for SPace Wolves grey hunters. You could have them equiped with a bolter and for +1 pt give them an extra CCW... So if you build them using the regular SW box they have knives, if you use the prospero box they have a chainsword, instant win.

 

Unless further down the line they make any basic CCW +1 attack, which seems unlikely.

Chainswords are now quantity, and power weapons are quality. Depending on the foe (or just your local meta) will determine which works better for you.

[Sete]

Now we just need to know our chapter specific rules.

 

This edition mihht shape nicely for us.

 

I have been thinking why did Pete Foley asked on Twitter which Sucessor chapter was a fan favourite...

 

Also IF and BT were missing on their WW display cases.

 

The plot thickens...

[Marshal Wolfhart]

Besides the chainsword goodness, what do the brothers think of power weapons? I guess i'll stick with mostly swords for aesthetic reason, albeit the axe might be superior against any MEQ, as 3+ wounds is better than a -1 better rend

(quick mathhammer says: 1/2*1/2*5/6=5/24=0,20 wounds per attack for the sword, 1/2*2/3*2/3=4/18=0,22 wounds per attack for the axe. against anything t6-8 or below 4 the sword pulls ahead though. Might do a proper assessment against any combination of t and sv for every power weapon :D i like my statistics)

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Power Weapons are currently cool... one of the things I like most in playing games is having the dilemma of choice...

if all the choices are enticing and hard to make, the better challenge it is for the player...

 

Having Power Swords, Power Mauls and Power Axes each with their own different perk when dealing damage and even the chainsword has now become a viable choice for a Sergeant or Sword Brother...

 

But you know what's missing?

 

 

 

Power Lances...

[Acebaur]

Vehicles may be tougher but shooting is also a hell of a lot stronger and given GWs history of assigning points to tanks I am as yet unconvinced the LRC will be points effecient enough to survive the firepower that can be bought for points it will cost given that even non specialised shooting units (tatical marines etc) can spit their fire fully to pick on each guns optimal target.

Weapons are also a lot more expensive now too. The multi melta went up by 17 points. So while yes shooting is more powerful, vehicles are waaaay more durable and good shooting is more costly

[TheOneTrueZon]

 

But you know what's missing?

 

 

 

Power Lances...

 

hnnnnnggggg, you're so right. I hope they don't nix them completely. I want my biker charge to be glorious! Those poor Brettonians who lost all their arms, FOR WHAT!?!?

[Acebaur]

They might still exist, we haven't see everything yet. Also if they don't just use them as whatever you want.

[Marshal Arthur]

I'm excited to see how our own rules and stratagems may stack with melee but to be honest I was underwhelmed today. The chainsword is effectively the same as it is now, but to make it unique they weakened all other melee weapons by stripping them of an extra attack. There's still a lot we don't know so I'm staying positive but an initiate with a power weapon currently only gets one attack which is less than he has now.

 

That said I think MSU crusader squads could work nicely with a LRC. Imagine two or three small squads charging out, protected from overwatch by the LRC and overwhelming a target unit since they all attack first. Then they can consolidate into adjacent units and tie up several units all at once while maximizing the number of power weapons and special weapons.

[BitsHammer]

I'm excited to see how our own rules and stratagems may stack with melee but to be honest I was underwhelmed today. The chainsword is effectively the same as it is now, but to make it unique they weakened all other melee weapons by stripping them of an extra attack. There's still a lot we don't know so I'm staying positive but an initiate with a power weapon currently only gets one attack which is less than he has now.

 

That said I think MSU crusader squads could work nicely with a LRC. Imagine two or three small squads charging out, protected from overwatch by the LRC and overwhelming a target unit since they all attack first. Then they can consolidate into adjacent units and tie up several units all at once while maximizing the number of power weapons and special weapons.

I doubt they changed the rules for extra attacks solely to buff the chainsword. I think they decided to change it due to some changes to how melee works (and how there are several weapons that do extra damage per hit) and leaving the extra attacks in leaned the game too far towards assault.

 

I can't imagine that this change was done quickly either, but after a lot of playtesting on trying to balance how deadly melee was, especially when compared to how much a unit pays to deal more damage.

[Marshal Laeroth]

I think it's important to note, that while we do essentially lose one attack in combat from the rules change to pistols (2x close combat weapons)...we GAIN shooting in locked combat, something we didn't have before. It's not one or the other, so shoot with those pistols and then use your close combat attacks. So really, we stay close to even. And we dont know if we gain an attack for charging yet either.

[Kastor Krieg]

Imagine two or three small squads charging out, protected from overwatch by the LRC and overwhelming a target unit since they all attack first. Then they can consolidate into adjacent units and tie up several units all at once while maximizing the number of power weapons and special weapons.

How does an LRC protect you from overwatch?

[Marshal Arthur]

 

 

Imagine two or three small squads charging out, protected from overwatch by the LRC and overwhelming a target unit since they all attack first. Then they can consolidate into adjacent units and tie up several units all at once while maximizing the number of power weapons and special weapons.

How does an LRC protect you from overwatch?

It can charge into combat first and tank the overwatch, then you can charge your squad while the target is busy getting squished by a metal box. And in response to everyone else's replies those are good points. Assault's weakness in the current edition was always getting to combat which seems to be fixed in 8th. Naturally something needs to be done to keep it from being overpowered and reducing attacks while giving each weapon a distinct purpose is a good way to do that. I can't wait to see how our crusader squads, HQs, and stratagems will apply to combat.

[balordazul]

Is anyone else shocked that the highest Toughness is only T8 that we have seen so far?  It seems they are compensating with wounds and saves.  I really thought the knight would have been T12 or T14 and the Russ T10 after seeing the Morkonut at T8.  

 

It was interesting that they said "Trygons, which can severely damage or destroy Knights in a single lucky round of combat." I will agree that vehicles are not going to be one shot from a melta now but I still feel that they will be going down fast.

 

S4 v T7 you will see dreads and light transports still die fast, especially under 24".  I think the heavy bolters are really going to shine for all forms of SM at S5 will be wounds all those T8 models on a 5+.  

 

This is going to be a really interesting edition as a twin linked heavy bolters may now have a priority over the twin linked assault cannon if the point scaling is the same.  

 

The MM point change is justified and I think we will see more of them even at the newer price.  They work with drop pods and only a minus 1 to hit if they moved.  Again really interesting but we still are missing a lot of details.

 

Unless standard dreads are going to be getting interesting CC rules like flamer in CC or a minor stomp to a lesser degree than a knight we are going to see the return of the rifleman dread.  Eight S7 shots and being able to keep distance to avoid the death by 1000 cuts.  

 

Very interesting times for 40k.

[balordazul]

 

 

Imagine two or three small squads charging out, protected from overwatch by the LRC and overwhelming a target unit since they all attack first. Then they can consolidate into adjacent units and tie up several units all at once while maximizing the number of power weapons and special weapons.

How does an LRC protect you from overwatch?

It can charge into combat first and tank the overwatch, then you can charge your squad while the target is busy getting squished by a metal box. And in response to everyone else's replies those are good points. Assault's weakness in the current edition was always getting to combat which seems to be fixed in 8th. Naturally something needs to be done to keep it from being overpowered and reducing attacks while giving each weapon a distinct purpose is a good way to do that. I can't wait to see how our crusader squads, HQs, and stratagems will apply to combat.

 

There is a chance that disembarking a unit will not allow a transport charge into combat but this is the issue of not having all the rules and I would be shocked if this was not noticed via testing.

[BitsHammer]

 

Imagine two or three small squads charging out, protected from overwatch by the LRC and overwhelming a target unit since they all attack first. Then they can consolidate into adjacent units and tie up several units all at once while maximizing the number of power weapons and special weapons.

How does an LRC protect you from overwatch?

 

 

 

 

 

Imagine two or three small squads charging out, protected from overwatch by the LRC and overwhelming a target unit since they all attack first. Then they can consolidate into adjacent units and tie up several units all at once while maximizing the number of power weapons and special weapons.

How does an LRC protect you from overwatch?

It can charge into combat first and tank the overwatch, then you can charge your squad while the target is busy getting squished by a metal box. And in response to everyone else's replies those are good points. Assault's weakness in the current edition was always getting to combat which seems to be fixed in 8th. Naturally something needs to be done to keep it from being overpowered and reducing attacks while giving each weapon a distinct purpose is a good way to do that. I can't wait to see how our crusader squads, HQs, and stratagems will apply to combat.

 

There is a chance that disembarking a unit will not allow a transport charge into combat but this is the issue of not having all the rules and I would be shocked if this was not noticed via testing.

 

Land Raiders are assault vehicles. I'd be shocked if they took that away from it. Open-topped will likely still allow assaults as well (you know, if you want to let your unsupervised Neophytes run around in a Land Speeder Storm).

[balordazul]

No I'm sorry I was saying the Transport might not be able to take the overwatch as there could be a rule if they drop troops off that turn they may not charge.

[balordazul]

I was thinking of a very costly unit but Assault Centurions inside a LCR along with a smaller crusader squad would be very interesting.  Most likely to points heavy to be worth it.  

 

LRC moves into range deploys three assault centurions with hurricane bolters.  The Centurions will provide 32 S4 shots and 6D6 S4 flamer shots to clear the way or weaken units as you can split the firing choices you can weaken the different targets.  You also have the LRC supporting and the Crusader Squad to also weaken the enemy and then charge both with the Centurions to take the overwatch and then the crusaders to add weight of attacks.  

[BitsHammer]

No I'm sorry I was saying the Transport might not be able to take the overwatch as there could be a rule if they drop troops off that turn they may not charge.

We'll have to wait for the transport article. My hope is that if you charge with a transport the unit inside can "pile in" to the combat from the access points.

[Kastor Krieg]

You would be shocked, eh? Rhino.

[BitsHammer]

You would be shocked, eh? Rhino.

Being able to join combat by charging out of your engaged vehicle would put the "shock" into "tank shock".

[AndrewChristlieb]

Charging LRCs (or any transport) into the middle of a horde and having Marines piling out into the combat is very cinematic and I would love to see it.

 

As for toughness... The T8 /24 wound knight errant they posted is only 13/12/12 now with 6 wounds. The Lemon Rust is currently 14/13/10 with 3 wounds and in 8th is T8 with 12 wounds. I'd like to hope 14/14/14 with 4 wounds would end up tougher, at least T10 with 16 wounds

[balordazul]

Charging LRCs (or any transport) into the middle of a horde and having Marines piling out into the combat is very cinematic and I would love to see it.

 

As for toughness... The T8 /24 wound knight errant they posted is only 13/12/12 now with 6 wounds. The Lemon Rust is currently 14/13/10 with 3 wounds and in 8th is T8 with 12 wounds. I'd like to hope 14/14/14 with 4 wounds would end up tougher, at least T10 with 16 wounds

Thanks for the break down.

[Ciler]

I think it's important to note, that while we do essentially lose one attack in combat from the rules change to pistols (2x close combat weapons)...we GAIN shooting in locked combat, something we didn't have before. It's not one or the other, so shoot with those pistols and then use your close combat attacks. So really, we stay close to even. And we dont know if we gain an attack for charging yet either.

True, but as I was saying before, this only applies to models with a chainsword. Anything else loses out.

 

That's not a huge thing for our templar blobs because the default weapon is the chainsword, but that weapon isn't so ubiquitous for other chapters/armies (see my wolves example prior).

[Sete]

Well a LRC can now take 3 5 man crusader squads with the old chaplain.

So you approach the enemy gun line shoot the hurricane and assault canon twinlinked!

Then you can charge up to 4 different targets.

Make this X3 full LRC.

 

Hnnngggghhh...

[Sete]

Btw there is a Photoshopped Primaris Marine with BT colours in the Last Wall FB page.

I'm on my phone I can't share.