HH to remain using 7th ed rules

[Kol Saresk]

Terminators confirmed as 2W for 40k.

 

Very interesting.

But also confirmed as having special rules to make them hard to kill.

 

So there is going to be a lot going into determining whether or not you can wound something. So it might not be the best idea for 500 IG to go up against a Land Raider after all.

[Charlo]

ID from 2xS (apparently) confirmed as going away too. Which is cool.

[Brofist]

Armour facing is gone. Lots and lots of wound management which is going to be a slog. Overall 8th looks interesting, but if FW decides to go 8th instead of 7.5th the entire game is going to get stood on it's head.

[Baluc]

Armour facing is gone. Lots and lots of wound management which is going to be a slog. Overall 8th looks interesting, but if FW decides to go 8th instead of 7.5th the entire game is going to get stood on it's head.

 

How is that any different than managing wounds and hull points?

[Withershadow]

 

Armour facing is gone. Lots and lots of wound management which is going to be a slog. Overall 8th looks interesting, but if FW decides to go 8th instead of 7.5th the entire game is going to get stood on it's head.

 

How is that any different than managing wounds and hull points?

If anything, it makes things quicker to resolve because you don't have to argue over which side of the vehicle was hit when it's too close to call.

 

Tracking the number of wounds won't be an issue... if you could count to 6 before for super heavies, you can count to 12 or whatever for the new ones.

 

I just hope the whole degradation as wounds are taken doesn't have more than 2 or 3 stages. I can definitely see a lot of unintentional errors cropping up (or a lot of double checking) if each wound lost has some kind of impact. The most I would want to tolerate is something like this

 

10-15HP = full power

5-9HP = one less gun, moves slower

1-4HP = severely reduced shooting, very limited movement

0HP = dead

 

For softer targets, I would prefer they only have "healthy", "wounded", and "dead" status. Should keep mistakes to a minimum.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

I enjoy spending money on rules that get invalidated a couple of months later

 

If you purchased Inferno you had made a mistake before 8th was even announced. 

 

 

True for sure on that one, now we know why the editing was so sloppy lol.  

[Zeratil]

If you paid your £80 for a FW black book for only the rules and not the lore and artwork that takes up far more of the book your mistake was made long before anything to with edition numbers was decided.

[Withershadow]

^ This.

 

Even redbook purchases shouldn't be regretted, since you still will get a good long use out of them. It will take FW a WHILE to update everything.

 

I am actually curious what this does to Angelus, I really hope FW completes the project as originally intended, so we have a full set of Legion rules for the 7th edition ruleset.  Scrapping everything now for an 8th edition system seems like a monumental task for them, and unlike the main studio, I don't think they have the manpower (or time) to playtest every single unit.

[Sol_Invictus]

If you paid your £80 for a FW black book for only the rules and not the lore and artwork that takes up far more of the book your mistake was made long before anything to with edition numbers was decided.

Don't get me wrong, I'm completely satisfied with my purchase but if they are going to offer a voucher just because I purchased within the last 8 weeks then it would be dumb of me not to get one and I can certainly think of some things I could use it on.

[Kol Saresk]

^ This.

 

Even redbook purchases shouldn't be regretted, since you still will get a good long use out of them. It will take FW a WHILE to update everything.

 

I am actually curious what this does to Angelus, I really hope FW completes the project as originally intended, so we have a full set of Legion rules for the 7th edition ruleset. Scrapping everything now for an 8th edition system seems like a monumental task for them, and unlike the main studio, I don't think they have the manpower (or time) to playtest every single unit.

I'm still convinced this is why 30K is being left alone for the interim. So they can go ahead and finish this last batch of rules and then work on updating everything at once.

[Brofist]

How is that any different than managing wounds and hull points?

Besides having double or triple the volume? This:

 

I just hope the whole degradation as wounds are taken doesn't have more than 2 or 3 stages. I can definitely see a lot of unintentional errors cropping up (or a lot of double checking) if each wound lost has some kind of impact. The most I would want to tolerate is something like this

Tracking a model with 12 wounds with different stages that impact your basic stats (especially if they are unique to each unit) will be confusing and tedious. We still don't know what they are exactly doing, but in this situation it would be worse than what they had before.

 

Also how are they going to balance tanks with high front AV with low rear AV? Seems like vehicles will be less unique from one another.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

The 30K community still can't handle elements of the FAQ like meltabombs, they are not ready for 8th despite the latter already sounding like a better game.

 

I think I agree somewhat. Portions of this community are here because HH feels like 3rd or 4th edition. The rules are just as poor as its base game, there is just less running through the machine so the breaks in the mechanics are less obvious. 

 

I'm actually looking forward to 8th edition and hope that it is fully adopted by FW for the fall. 

 

 

It is more a case of the 30k player base has played a long time and knows the rules well going back several editions. The FAQ for grenades made no sense and probably was intended to protect sales of the company's ever precious gargantuans and super heavies.

[Baluc]

 

How is that any different than managing wounds and hull points?

Besides having double or triple the volume? This:

 

I just hope the whole degradation as wounds are taken doesn't have more than 2 or 3 stages. I can definitely see a lot of unintentional errors cropping up (or a lot of double checking) if each wound lost has some kind of impact. The most I would want to tolerate is something like this

Tracking a model with 12 wounds with different stages that impact your basic stats (especially if they are unique to each unit) will be confusing and tedious. We still don't know what they are exactly doing, but in this situation it would be worse than what they had before.

 

Also how are they going to balance tanks with high front AV with low rear AV? Seems like vehicles will be less unique from one another.

That is pretty weak man.

 

Choose unit you are going to shoot/move

 

Look at wound counter.

Incedently I always have counted up.

 

Look at chart measure and plan your turn.

 

Its all know information when you start your turn. No need to constantly check books. Check when you make your plans.

 

It be like going to the store to pick up some plastic mk 4 and not knowing how much money you actually have. I'm putting that on you not the system.

 

As to differentiating vehicles the game is an abstraction outside of that scale. Or do we also want to go back to the days of storm shields only working against attacks from the front?

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

^ This.

 

Even redbook purchases shouldn't be regretted, since you still will get a good long use out of them. It will take FW a WHILE to update everything.

 

I am actually curious what this does to Angelus, I really hope FW completes the project as originally intended, so we have a full set of Legion rules for the 7th edition ruleset. Scrapping everything now for an 8th edition system seems like a monumental task for them, and unlike the main studio, I don't think they have the manpower (or time) to playtest every single unit.

I'm still convinced this is why 30K is being left alone for the interim. So they can go ahead and finish this last batch of rules and then work on updating everything at once.

 

 

If they intend to go over to 8th edition this makes absolutely no sense at all. Just look how long it took for Inferno to release... it will never happen.

[Brofist]

That is pretty weak man.

Choose unit you are going to shoot/move

Look at wound counter.

Incedently I always have counted up.

Look at chart measure and plan your turn.

Its all know information when you start your turn. No need to constantly check books. Check when you make your plans.

It be like going to the store to pick up some plastic mk 4 and not knowing how much money you actually have. I'm putting that on you not the system.

As to differentiating vehicles the game is an abstraction outside of that scale. Or do we also want to go back to the days of storm shields only working against attacks from the front?

Have you played games like WMH where you track lots of wounds? If you liked it, cool, but I didn’t like the amount of housekeeping. 1D6 for your tanks and a few characters is not the same as multiple dice for half your army.

With big models where you have dozens of wounds and each unique unit has a unique damage chart with different states… it’s more work than the current system. Sure it’s on the player to memorize this, but if the goal was to streamline stuff while keeping the depth that’s not the result. AV did it better.

This is all speculation at this point anyway

[Kol Saresk]

Oh my frikkin goodness it took a whole year to publish a book. It's like we're back to the very beginning of the Horus Heresy when there was a year between Betrayal and Massacre. Geez, we get books 3-5 6 months apart each and all of a sudden everyone thinks a year long wait is torture or something.

 

Forgeworld will get the job done. They've shown that by publishing seven books that are each loaded with a crap ton of lore and rules in four years and six months. They will get the job done, irregardless of how they go about doing it.

 

We've been told Forgeworld will update eventually. It's just a matter of when and how. Whether that means they print Angelus first and then update, or update first and then redo Angelus from the ground up, it will happen. So stop saying it won't just because nobody here has patience.

[Luna707]

Did they comment about how the 8th will affect the Horus Heresy in the video that was posted on GW's Facebook? Or are we still in a bit of limbo?

[Plaguecaster]

Did they comment about how the 8th will affect the Horus Heresy in the video that was posted on GW's Facebook? Or are we still in a bit of limbo?

Same as the FAQ it won't affect 30k at this stage unless FW decide to change this later down the track though they are probably more interested in updating their 40k stuff to 8th first

[Hesh Kadesh]

Am I only the only one worried about the scale creep? While scale has gradually increased over the years (Metal Terminators on 25mm round bases for example being much smaller than the plastics), the new plastics are much nearer truescale by the current look, using larger 50mm (?) round bases. And then you've got vehicle issues coming from that. Already a Rhino cannot hold a 

 

Which calls into question what FW are going to do - not only with their tanks, but also with their models. Yes, yes, you've got rules complaints, but I can always stick with 7th edition in my gaming group if needs must, and my gaming group is likely to do the same - we did that with 8th edition Warhammer after all. However, the issue is that the hobby won't be supported - our models will be vastly different sizes and scales, and aren't going to be further supported. FW aren't going to supplement a dead ruleset.

 

I've not supported the hobby for the last year or so while I've been travelling, but I'm not going to lie - I think it might be time to finally say "Goodbye" to Games Workshop, and enjoy the happy memories. GW really know how to :cuss things up for people.

[Fangbanger]

Really? your going to quit because your marines might be a different size as you think new ones will be on 50mm? I think that's a bit ridiculous.

I mean you can't actually fit 25 men in a spartan anyway, even the resin ones so.. maybe some role play stuff will be better suited if you want something that logisticly makes sense...

That is pretty weak man.

Choose unit you are going to shoot/move

Look at wound counter.

Incedently I always have counted up.

Look at chart measure and plan your turn.

Its all know information when you start your turn. No need to constantly check books. Check when you make your plans.

It be like going to the store to pick up some plastic mk 4 and not knowing how much money you actually have. I'm putting that on you not the system.

As to differentiating vehicles the game is an abstraction outside of that scale. Or do we also want to go back to the days of storm shields only working against attacks from the front?

Have you played games like WMH where you track lots of wounds? If you liked it, cool, but I didn’t like the amount of housekeeping. 1D6 for your tanks and a few characters is not the same as multiple dice for half your army.

With big models where you have dozens of wounds and each unique unit has a unique damage chart with different states… it’s more work than the current system. Sure it’s on the player to memorize this, but if the goal was to streamline stuff while keeping the depth that’s not the result. AV did it better.

This is all speculation at this point anyway

Um, you do realise that super heavies have 12 hull points yes?

[Gorgoff]

Oh myyyy, just put a D12 besides your 12 wounds tank and count wounds down with that.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Really? your going to quit because your marines might be a different size as you think new ones will be on 50mm? I think that's a bit ridiculous.

 

I mean you can't actually fit 25 men in a spartan anyway, even the resin ones so.. maybe some role play stuff will be better suited if you want something that logisticly makes sense... 

 

 

Considering that I have a collection from 15 years of gaming, and had a regular gaming group of ~16-20 people, yes. That group of people is going to leave the hobby. Their collections they now cannot add to without vastly different models or vastly more expensive plastic kits from resellers who cash in on people wanting a vaguely homogenous unit size. This isn't like where you can maybe pass off an old vehicle model as a different mark - it simply just does not fit within the aesthetic of the armies we have been building for several years.  That is the straw that breaks the camels back for me. I can still pick up a few Warhammer Fantasy Models, and just buy different bases for them and rank them up. FW aren't going to continue to support "old-scale" marines for much longer, so there's only so much that can be picked up. The target audience of 8th edition aren't going to want to pick up a new scale of models that are smaller than the ones in their current collection.

 

We are stuck playing the same rules we're currently have, unless 7th edition is adopted as a specific 30K ruleset (which FW have basically stated that they're not doing despite the thread title), and even if they do, the hobby will be split between those who can actually wrap their heads around the apparently oh-so difficult 7th edition rules, and those who are stuck playing the scrubs-lite version of what 8th edition is turning out to be (seriously, play Age of Sigmar, and understand actually how :cuss the game mechanics are for someone wanting to play Warhammer - it's like someone asking to play a game like Total War, and being recommended to play either Age of Empires or Crusader Kings, or the transition from Dawn of War 1 to 2 or 3 basically only being games that share a similar concept art) catering to people who only want to play with big powerful, expensive models rather than having large armies.

 

GW business ethos is completely antithetic to what I, and the people who I game with enjoy spending a few nights a week doing, and I see no purpose in further supplying Games Workshops with money, which they will siphon off from supporting gameplay I enjoy, and use it to support a style of game which I don't want to play. And admittedly, don't want to enjoy. So, I'm voting for my wallet. Yes, I am bitter, and no I don't wish GW well about it. This is a bad break-up, in a hobby where I've supported for quite possibly as much as ten of thousands of pounds over the last 15 years between books, models, paints, magazines, organizing and participating in events (and the costs such as tickets, fuel, hotels and food etc) to go learn about it, and be a part of that community, and GW either didn't learn the lessons from the backlash of Age of Sigmar, or rather are content to sacrifice the income of people like myself in order to bring a new blood who'll drop £500 over a christmas period, and then drop the next summer, in order to appeal to the next group of gullible middle income families providing their child with a hobby.

 

I'll have good memories, and existing rules, but the gaming group that I've spent a good amount of time curating, managing, organizing, and writing FAQ's for, as well as the online community revolving around tactics (in a largely homogenised ruleset that honestly hasn't changed much since 3rd edition), will break apart. The lifeblood of the hobby is the new models and the rules that come with those. If the rules are not compatible with how we enjoy playing, and the models are now no longer going to be of the correct scale for our armies, what point is there in carrying on?

 

I think it's more ridiculous to throw money at a business that I don't like, simply because I used to like them 5 years ago. 

[Purge the Daemon]

 

 

Really? your going to quit because your marines might be a different size as you think new ones will be on 50mm? I think that's a bit ridiculous.

 

I mean you can't actually fit 25 men in a spartan anyway, even the resin ones so.. maybe some role play stuff will be better suited if you want something that logisticly makes sense...

 

Considering that I have a collection from 15 years of gaming, and had a regular gaming group of ~16-20 people, yes. That group of people is going to leave the hobby. Their collections they now cannot add to without vastly different models or vastly more expensive plastic kits from resellers who cash in on people wanting a vaguely homogenous unit size. This isn't like where you can maybe pass off an old vehicle model as a different mark - it simply just does not fit within the aesthetic of the armies we have been building for several years. That is the straw that breaks the camels back for me. I can still pick up a few Warhammer Fantasy Models, and just buy different bases for them and rank them up. FW aren't going to continue to support "old-scale" marines for much longer, so there's only so much that can be picked up. The target audience of 8th edition aren't going to want to pick up a new scale of models that are smaller than the ones in their current collection.

 

We are stuck playing the same rules we're currently have, unless 7th edition is adopted as a specific 30K ruleset (which FW have basically stated that they're not doing despite the thread title), and even if they do, the hobby will be split between those who can actually wrap their heads around the apparently oh-so difficult 7th edition rules, and those who are stuck playing the scrubs-lite version of what 8th edition is turning out to be (seriously, play Age of Sigmar, and understand actually how :cuss the game mechanics are for someone wanting to play Warhammer - it's like someone asking to play a game like Total War, and being recommended to play either Age of Empires or Crusader Kings, or the transition from Dawn of War 1 to 2 or 3 basically only being games that share a similar concept art) catering to people who only want to play with big powerful, expensive models rather than having large armies.

 

GW business ethos is completely antithetic to what I, and the people who I game with enjoy spending a few nights a week doing, and I see no purpose in further supplying Games Workshops with money, which they will siphon off from supporting gameplay I enjoy, and use it to support a style of game which I don't want to play. And admittedly, don't want to enjoy. So, I'm voting for my wallet. Yes, I am bitter, and no I don't wish GW well about it. This is a bad break-up, in a hobby where I've supported for quite possibly as much as ten of thousands of pounds over the last 15 years between books, models, paints, magazines, organizing and participating in events (and the costs such as tickets, fuel, hotels and food etc) to go learn about it, and be a part of that community, and GW either didn't learn the lessons from the backlash of Age of Sigmar, or rather are content to sacrifice the income of people like myself in order to bring a new blood who'll drop £500 over a christmas period, and then drop the next summer, in order to appeal to the next group of gullible middle income families providing their child with a hobby.

 

I'll have good memories, and existing rules, but the gaming group that I've spent a good amount of time curating, managing, organizing, and writing FAQ's for, as well as the online community revolving around tactics (in a largely homogenised ruleset that honestly hasn't changed much since 3rd edition), will break apart. The lifeblood of the hobby is the new models and the rules that come with those. If the rules are not compatible with how we enjoy playing, and the models are now no longer going to be of the correct scale for our armies, what point is there in carrying on?

 

I think it's more ridiculous to throw money at a business that I don't like, simply because I used to like them 5 years ago.

Now I don't want to bash on your thoughts here so I won't but here's a fee things.

 

AOS after the generals handbook has become such a popular game in many stores I have been to in Ontario where 40k used to be 9/10 games a year ago now 2/3 if not more of all games is aos. My local store has a 40k and aos group the aos group has twice the members.

 

It's really not a bad game it's also not hero hammer at all. There are elite armies and there are horde armies one of the strongest armies for a while was the savage ork kunning ruk which involved running up to 200 models. Currently some of the elite armies are more popular simply because they also got newer battle tomes such as stormcasts beadtclaw and daemons. That is always how warhammer of either sort has worked the new updated books are almost always the most popular.

 

And in terms of scale GW models have gradually increased in size over the years. Games workshop has also received tons of replies over the years asking to make marines bigger than guardsmen. But even then it seems likely these larger marines are the guilliman special hybrids and not a full line replacement. While it's possible they are it seems highly unlikely as it would probably hurt sales more for them to replace all marines (50% of all codexes curently) with larger scales for evrything.

 

Also there is literally 0 way they change the scale of the game. They have no incentive to decrease scale in fact they have been ramping up the scale for years. They also mentioned in the livestream that your current formations you have collected will be able to be used in varying ways in the new system. Also some of the foc charts are quite clearly large and you actually gain benefits from taking tons of units in the form of command points.

 

Command points add something that's actually incredibly interesting to the system which is a list building aspect beyond just showing up but allowing for greater on the fly tactical decisions which is honestly a step in the right direction.

 

Best of all they are building a changing rule book which has been okay tested more than any other thing they have ever published. This means you don't have 4 years where monstours creatures make dreadnought useless. You don't have d spam being the bane of all armies. This is the best direction they could take because it shows they actually want feedback they want to build a better system.

 

The three ways to okay also seem to indicate it's not aos. Way one is the same as aos narrative play which is fine that's always existed in 40k it's called building your own scenarios. Way 2 is like aos matched okay and more akin to how fantasy used to work were things are less individualized and purchased in blocks. The 3rd way involves more min maxing and just as much tactical decision on the model by model basis as the game we know and love.

 

I just can't see what there is to complain about as of current. They are introducing a new rule set the same complaints cone up everytime. If you've been playing for 15 years you should recall the change from 4th to 5th and 5th to 6th. The game changed hugely in those editions nevermind entire model ranges were invalidated and yet everyone seems to have kept playing in fact it's only grown larger since then.

[Fangbanger]

I think it's just crazy to think something should stay the same as it looked 15 years ago... Times change and evolve

 

Do our cars look the same? No

 

Do our houses look the same? No

 

Does TV look the same? No

 

The moan that a company keeps updating its product over 15 year is just rubbish

[Hesh Kadesh]

I think it's just crazy to think something should stay the same as it looked 15 years ago... Times change and evolve

 

Do our cars look the same? No

 

Do our houses look the same? No

 

Does TV look the same? No

 

The moan that a company keeps updating its product over 15 year is just rubbish

It is. Which is why no-one made that complaint. Stop strawmanning.