Slaaneshi Daemons in 8th

[WarriorFish]

I've managed to spend a little bit of time reading through the Daemons stuff - though by no means all of it. For Daemonettes the bonus for being 20+ models is a bit disappointing because while the bonus itself is rather nice fielding a large squad and keeping it that way doesn't sound too practical especially on a T3 6+ unit. The Daemonic Icon sounds like a way of mitigating this however - certainly better than nothing, but I'm not expecting to get much use from that extra attack even if you do roll well on it (it's 25pts too).

 

Daemonttes do hit quite well though so that attack would really help fishing for those 6s to pass right through all but the best armour. At 9pts a model they seem ok for price? Seekers seem to be quite nice for 19pts each, being quick with 14" and being able to advance and charge? That comes across as lightning quick and as ever it looks like Daemonettes want to be in combat as soon as possible so this could be a great play early game. 2 Wounds too, maybe I should have got more than 10 when I had the chance!

 

I have no real interest or knowledge on the chariots, though they seem ok to me? Heralds and DPs for more psychic powers appears useful too, and Fiends while more expensive having the ability to prevent falling back should be a great trick. They also hit pretty hard and mess with enemy psykers This is all conjecture of course, and could be deeper as there does appear to be a bit of a shortage on higher Strength attacks.

 

What do others think, especially compared to experiences in 7th?

[bozo69pd]

I think you have to plan to deep strike a full unit in and charge a unit that is already locked in combat (therefore no overwatch). You can place them wherever you want so 9.01 inches away then charge. Instruments add +1 to charge rolls so you average 8 for charge range. I didn't see fleet on them unfortunately, and we know quicksilver makes them always strike first even when charged.

[Sersi]

Graceful Killers:

 

I wouldn't take 30 Daemonettes in one unit for the Plus +1 attack bonus. That's a false hope they won't make it to combat at full strength with just a 5+ save if their forced to run up the board.  As they'll make have the saves they did in the 7th.  Even with the 5+ invulnerable you were counting on re-rolls from the locus of beguilement and +1S/AP2 Etherblades on the Herald and Champion to do the damage, and the rest were ablative wounds and occasionally contributed rends.  Worse your unlikely to roll high enough to summon that many either.

 

Piercing Claws:

 

Daemonettes damage potential is better now with the constant AP-1 and AP-4 on 6" to wound. You still only wound T4-5 on a  5+, but marines are always saving on a 4+, and terminators on a 3+ or worse.  Better to take 2 units of twenty within 6" of a herald for the +1S. That allows you to wound T4 on 4+.

 

Daemonic Ritual:

 

Daemonic ritual isn't as flexible as being able to deep strike any unit. Your summoner can't move, the summoned unit has to manifest within 12" of the summoner, and they can take anywhere from 1-3 mortal wounds if you roll poorly.  But....on average you'll roll 10.5 you can pull down a unit of 20X daemonettes.  The problem is the Summoner can't move and it only has a 12" range.The solution run a tide list. Fast units, your winged Princes, Seekers, Fiends and various chariots run up the board. Start them 12" outside of the enemies deployment, then move 12-14". Seekers advance and attempt charges if possible to lock shooting units. Your character either makes it to combat and then summons reinforcements next turn. Or skips its movement phase and summons reinforcements for a combo charge that turn.  then sit still and get shot, then maybe summon turn 2.

 

Even then it would work better with obliterators and/or combi-weapon terminators coming in out of tactical reserves to apply pressure to the enemy. There Slaaneshi CSM characters characters can summon and they have more wounds to mitigate the risk.  Come out of tactical reserves turn 1 in the enemy backfield shoot something and charge in. Next turn summons reinforcements. Wow we're back to 3.5.

[WarriorFish]

Good points both, some food for thought! It does seem to me like striking them down and hoping to bundle right in might be the best way to run them. Chances are they'll be in support of my CSM so should work nicely there.

 

With the loss of buying CCWs for CSM I'm thinking of a few BP/CCW CSM squads to advance up the field quickly (probably in Rhinos?), so they might work well as the anvil in this arrangement. Or potentially my 10 Seekers could perform the same role?

[bozo69pd]

Don't forget the Herald of Slaanesh gives +1 S to nearby daemonettes. That helps alot for fighting marines. She is probably going to be the one summoning, so stick her on a steed to give her a greatly increased range of movement. Keeper of Secrets is infinitely improved as well looking at a possible turn 1 charge and killing a whole unit a turn if you are lucky.

 

I forgot that they can only be summoned in though which is a big bummer. We all know how not popular summoning is in AoS because of how it works.

[WarriorFish]

Waiting/hoping on a new KoS model like the recent big bird ;) Heralds do sound like a good idea, I was only planning one originally but I do have a couple models spare (42 total)! Seems like characters are vital for support in 8th which is quite nice.

[DraneceusRex]

 

I forgot that they can only be summoned in though which is a big bummer. We all know how not popular summoning is in AoS because of how it works.

Where are you seeing this? Every single Daemon Datasheet has Daemonic Ritual as a rule, so how could you run a pure Daemon army if this is the case?

 

You set aside your Reinforcement Points and then summon up to the limits of that pool. So we have it nice in that we can summon any unit we need rather than having to decide beforehand. I am not seeing anything stating Daemons cannot begin the game on the board.

[WarriorFish]

I think he means that you can't deep strike them normally Draneceus, if they're come from reserves to land on the table it needs to be via the Daemonic Ritual?

[undeadcat]

Mass seeker along with herald on steed are very good combo, threat range 14 + 3d6 + 3 (27.5) ,it reminds me my 7th edition dog list(8*5 hounds ,knight , fate weaver)

[WarriorFish]

I only have 10 Seekers sadly, but as a unit should be able to hit quickly and hard enough right?

 

Does anyone have particular thoughts on Daemon Princes? I still want to get one and mod it a little bit, I think the sword looks cool - would a flying DP be a good option?

[Scion]

I am also getting confused around this new daemonic ritual. It states that you roll 3D6 and have to equal or beat the power rating.

 

So its almost impossible to summon a bloodthirster with power rating 17?! You will have to start these on the table, right? But then this is the other thing the Thirster still has the daeonic ritual special rule. Does this mean they can summon other units? Or can you really try to summon one? You would have to roll 3x 6s to summon it and your chaos character will likely be dying in the process! Really confusing me..

Summoning smaller units will be fine I guess, but why would they put this total randomness into summoning while you can just bring in any other reserve unit (deep strike, teleport) at your own pleasure.
 

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Because special rules we dont have yet. 

Maybe Word Bearer will have a bonus for the 3D6 invocation dices.
Maybe Khorn Daemon army will have bonus depending on unit killed since the begining of the game on this 3D6

Maybe a full Chaos army will have Stratagem/relics to spend for a bonus on those dice. 

 

You have to read all the index to get what this "pre"V8 is about. Yes i said preV8 because it is. 

We just have the rules to continue playing while GW release the different codex. So right now everyone emphasis of their army "special flavor" lost in their respective index. 

Space marine lost their chapter tactic (listen to a Black Templar player), i heard SoB player says full Inquisition army is not a thing anymore, Chaos Space Marine player lost their Traitor Legion specific rules (few month only after getting them back) etc... etc...

 

So maybee GW want the Bloodthirster to be summon only by Khorn only army, World Eater and/or Word Bearer. Other Khorn character can only have small daemons. 

 

Let's have hope, the game released in 2 weeks isn't the V8. It's the beta-test or whatever. V8 will be when all codex are to be released. 

 

Does anyone have particular thoughts on Daemon Princes? I still want to get one and mod it a little bit, I think the sword looks cool - would a flying DP be a good option?

 

 

I'm not sure wings are as good as in V7 now. I think V7 flying DP are the Helldrake jobs now.

In V8 Flying DP are getting shot at full BS (not 6+ as in V7, nor BS-1 are other flyers) so you want those wings only for the mouvement speed and the ability to charge flyers (which will get faster than a flying DP unless <50% Hp).

 

I'm not sure a solitary DP with wings is a thing, unless you take those wings to follow a unit of seeker or other fast unit. 

[bozo69pd]

I think he means that you can't deep strike them normally Draneceus, if they're come from reserves to land on the table it needs to be via the Daemonic Ritual?

Correct.

 

 

I am also getting confused around this new daemonic ritual. It states that you roll 3D6 and have to equal or beat the power rating.

 

So its almost impossible to summon a bloodthirster with power rating 17?! You will have to start these on the table, right? But then this is the other thing the Thirster still has the daeonic ritual special rule. Does this mean they can summon other units? Or can you really try to summon one? You would have to roll 3x 6s to summon it and your chaos character will likely be dying in the process! Really confusing me..

 

Summoning smaller units will be fine I guess, but why would they put this total randomness into summoning while you can just bring in any other reserve unit (deep strike, teleport) at your own pleasure.

 

I know some units like Magnus get +x to their casting rolls.

 

 

 

 

I'm not sure a solitary DP with wings is a thing, unless you take those wings to follow a unit of seeker or other fast unit. 

I think in the points cost leak it seemed wings were much cheaper points than before, probably because they are purely for movement speed and flying over enemny models now.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

Wings are now 24 points (and i just realise that both version of the DP, Heretic Astartes or Daemon cost the same despite having different stats and rules). 

 

So wing are not bad, especially on the Chaos daemon version of DP (because of the >9HP rules), but i think the "Prince of Chaos" rule need to be used in order to make full profits of a DP. 

[bozo69pd]

Also I think I saw that DP is a character, which means that it cannot be shot at if there are closer models to the enemy :)

[Sersi]

Also I think I saw that DP is a character, which means that it cannot be shot at if there are closer models to the enemy

 

Sadly the rule only applies to the Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince which has 8 wounds. The Chaos Daemon version has 10 wounds so they are target-able regardless which unit is closest. 10 wounds is the cutoff for characters hiding.

[Sersi]

So, anyone else thinking the Daemonic Icons are a waste of points? 35 pts to on average once per game roll D6 to boost the unit by 3 daemonettes? Yeah the math works out but why not just bu 3 more daemonttes to begin with. Instruments are useful every turn though, and at only 10 pts you should always take them.

[WarriorFish]

They do seem a bit lacklustre for the cost, I was going to convert a musician and had nothing for icons so I'm not too fussed about this :P I expect it will change when GW gets round to the update, even if it's just a points drop.

[Knight of the Raven]

Sadly the rule only applies to the Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince which has 8 wounds. The Chaos Daemon version has 10 wounds so they are target-able regardless which unit is closest. 10 wounds is the cutoff for characters hiding.

Doesn't Warhammer Community's focus on characters state "a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less" for the inability to target characters? Unless I'm getting a critical understanding failure, that means 11 Wounds is the threshold for targeting them.

[Lagrath]

Slaanesh is now by far the strongest. I came up with a 2k list that is totally terrifying. I'm tempted to build it.

[themortalgod]

 

Sadly the rule only applies to the Heretic Astartes Daemon Prince which has 8 wounds. The Chaos Daemon version has 10 wounds so they are target-able regardless which unit is closest. 10 wounds is the cutoff for characters hiding.

Doesn't Warhammer Community's focus on characters state "a Wounds characteristic of 10 or less" for the inability to target characters? Unless I'm getting a critical understanding failure, that means 11 Wounds is the threshold for targeting them.

 

 

The rulebook states "10 or more" 

 

On topic, imo Slaanesh is going to be pretty decent. At first glance I remember thinking damn they are similar to before so prob still pretty bad but then I realized since most everyone else's models got more expensive and our Daemonettes stayed at 9ppm it was actually a really nice efficiency boost. I think a horde of Daemonettes is going to be a lot harder to shoot off the table before they get in combat than they were last edition simply due to the opponent having less guns for the same pts. (plus lack of templates means densely clumped units won't get erased anymore.

 

I think it still suffers from the one issue of being very much a 1 trick pony but such is life, it alway has been. (aka just book it at the opponent full speed and charge asap with fragile units that hit hard)

[WarriorFish]

I don't have any experience with Daemons yet, but I didn't think things were that rosy? Good enough yes, but I'm not sure if I'd say out there better? Or is it a case of benefiting most from the 8th changes?

[themortalgod]

I don't have any experience with Daemons yet, but I didn't think things were that rosy? Good enough yes, but I'm not sure if I'd say out there better? Or is it a case of benefiting most from the 8th changes?

 

I think its more a shift. I don't expect Daemons as a whole to be as "top tier" as they have enjoyed in 7th but that was never a Slaanesh thing. It was Tzeentch armies and Khorne armies that made 7th ed daemons so powerful. Slaanesh was the red headed step child that kinda sucked. I feel in 8th Tz and Kh took a big hit and are probably now mid pack in terms of power level while Slaanesh got a hefty buff in relative power so is also probably now mid pack. (Which is a lot better than 7th where pure Slaanesh was at the bottom of the barrel when it came to competitiveness)

 

So on short, my feeling is:

 

7th ed:

Tz and Kh: top 20%

Slaanesh: bottom 10%

 

8th ed:

Tz and Kh: top 50%

Slaanesh: top 50%

 

And nurgle, idk, haven't really looked at their rules enough hahah, never been a fan of nurgle daemons. 

[bozo69pd]

Nurgle has always been about playing for the long win. I destroyed with them back in 6th with flying circus. 7th I fought hard and usually couldn't get tabled, but the hard thing was the games wouldn't last long enough. Running out of time on turn 3 was a joke, a lot of times my forces wouldn't even get into cc until turn 3 or 4. Now that people are saying these games play much faster I may just have a chance to pull the win for a turn 6 or 7 game.

 

Nurgle in AoS I feel suffered greatly for not having the toughness stat. I know the idea was that they had more wounds, but it was a joke that 20 lucky chosen could instagib a GUO. I AM SO EXCITED THAT STR / TOUGHNESS STAYED FOR 8TH. In fact I hope it does so well here they add it to AoS v2.0

[Lagrath]

Nurgle is not outstanding because they are not good in shooting, mobility, or assault which is where other factions shine. But you can come up with some creative lists and I have something I can't wait to try.