Unit of the Week: Dreadnoughts

[Prot]

I've been posting about most of my games in the UM forum, but I did put a few i this Astartes forum from the Konor Campaign. I've played about 6 games with my 2 Redemptors and had some high hopes for them. I think after the first game I wasn't too hot on them but they did decent against horde Orks but they are built for that.

 

Other games I really just missed my Kheres Contemptor. The extra wounds are not really big to me. When someone focuses them, they are gone like any other Dread, however unlike the Contemptor they have no invulnerable foe some reason.

 

One thing I hate is being forced to take the fairly useless Icarus. Once your damaged, if you move, it's really hard to hit anything.

 

The Macroplasma is 'fun' but completely unreliable, and should definitely been 3 +D3 shots in my opinion. (Unless you're okay chucking out Command points on how many shots you get, but rolling no a 1 or 2 makes this weapon feel overpriced).

 

I've used 1, and then 2 Techmarines but it became rediculously expensive.

 

These are fun dreads but not optimal nor would I recommend these at their current cost over the other Dread options. Plus you can't beat2 lascannons compared to the plethora of S5 weapons that the Primaris options are overloaded on.

[Firepower]

 

Don't forget the points you need for a delivery system as well, Idaho. You can't just waddle those guys all the way up the board and expect them to succeed. They won't even catch some armies

Stormraven with Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multimelta, and 2 Hurricane Bolters carrying 5 Hammernators, a Chaplain, Apothecary, and an Ironclad Dreadnought FTW!

 

 

:glances wearily at his next project, the enormous pile of gray plastic on his desk that is a Raven still on its sprue:

 

...ugh.

 

Prot, in regards to the big plasma boomstick, after 3 games with my Vindicators I am of the mind that any gun which only gets D3 or D6 shots can go hang. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Firepower

[Captain Idaho]

Redemptor has 8".

The Redemptor hits on a 4+ with its best weapon systems if it moves.

 

Also it isn't any better in close combat than any other Dreads. In fact it hits on a 3+ vs 2+ for the Contemptor and Venerable so is actually worse. After all, S14 is not much better that S12 against most targets.

[Prot]

 

Redemptor has 8".

The Redemptor hits on a 4+ with its best weapon systems if it moves.

Also it isn't any better in close combat than any other Dreads. In fact it hits on a 3+ vs 2+ for the Contemptor and Venerable so is actually worse. After all, S14 is not much better that S12 against most targets.

Especially if you don't hit as often. I think overall GW was way too conservative with all the new units. Hang on to your Contemptors and ven dreads, they are flat put superior.

[Frater Cornelius]

Fair enough. I suppose my argument is that I only own a Redemptor. I sold off everything else :D

 

I disagree on the Ven Dread though. It may hit better, but the Redemptor can function as a decent gun platform when needed without sacrificing melee power. I think such multi-purpose units are underrated, because they can adapt instead being wasted points in certain match-ups. 3+ also benefits more from Guilliman and Chapter Masters, if you would be running this constellation regardless.

 

S14 wounds T7, which is most vehicles and walkers and plenty of monsters, on a 2+. If a Ven Dread hits on 2+ and wounds on a 3+ and the Redemptor hits on a 3+ and wounds on a 2+ they are identical. Niche application, but you have plenty of dakka with the Redemptor to deal with lower toughness. The Redemptor also does D6 damage, which can deal more damage to bigger targets than flat 3, the latter being more reliable though.

 

Still, it could use a 5++, I wholly agree.

 

Edit: Looking at the numbers, a Ven Dread with Stormbolter and Assault Cannon costs 153, whereas a full dakka Redemptor costs 202. The Ven Dreads hit better at range, but will always have less shots than the Redemptor, making the latter a better gun platform against infantry (the Ven has the advantage against tanks at range though). In melee the Ven is better against smaller models, whereas the Redemptor has the potential to outdamage the Ven against bigger stuff. Is it worth the 49 extra points? Tough to say. The Ven is a better allrounder without any serve limitations whereas the Redemptor can do one role potentially better at the cost of the other, but can adjust in game depending on the situation. Similar things go for the regular Contemptor (not looking at FW, because I do not have the rules and I consider them poison for balance in 8th, but that is another story).

 

All I am saying is that I perceive neither as strictly better and both have a place with a certain purpose in mind.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Frater Cornelius

[Captain Idaho]

A flat 3 damage is much better when you only have 4 attacks in my mind. You won't hit Ork Nobz or Primaris or Terminators etc and fail to wound because you rolled a 1 (or 2 in the case of Nobz) to wound. Working with averages sucks, because the dice care not for what you statistically should roll.

 

The Redemptor is a weapons platform that happens to be reasonable in close combat. It is already a niche in that it's best against infantry by a long way and shouldn't move around much.

 

The Venerable, particularly with a Lascannon and missile launcher, is amazing against vehicles and importantly flyers. It can move and fire well. It's cheaper too.

 

My issue with the Redemptor is its role is in hot competition with other units, particularly our bread and butter units we have to take in most armies.

 

Examples are Primaris and Tactical Marines. These bad boys are boltering infantry. They're move mobile doing it and you're saving points because you have to buy 3 Tactical squads for a Battalion. They are taking 3 separate objectives.

 

I don't think Redemptors are particularly bad in a Primaris only army, mainly because you haven't got any other choices, but 2 Redemptors is 400 odd points whereas 2 Contemptors is 330pts - a saving of 70pts that can attack objectives and opponents.

[Frater Cornelius]

If I wanted anti-tank I would not look towards Ven Dreads but Quad Las Preds instead. The only Dread that Vanilla Marines can field and I consider potentially superior to any variant mentioned is the Ironclad. Though I still see no reason the Ven is strictly better than the Redemptor, but that is okay. We all have our opinions ;)

[Brother Captain Sirus]

The Ven Dread with twin lascannon and ML is also a great anti air unit, a 3+ to hit flyers at 48" shouldnt be overlooked when looking for a flexible unit, that can bring high str with good AP to the table.

 

Personally i'd consider this dread in any army but thats just my thoughts on it.

[Captain Idaho]

If I wanted anti-tank I would not look towards Ven Dreads but Quad Las Preds instead. The only Dread that Vanilla Marines can field and I consider potentially superior to any variant mentioned is the Ironclad. Though I still see no reason the Ven is strictly better than the Redemptor, but that is okay. We all have our opinions ;)

The problem with a Predator Annihilator is it can't move and fire without losing out, it costs more, has pathetic close combat ability and degrades with damage.

 

The Venerable can move and fire effectively, can still hit opponents with 4 S6 attacks on a 2+, can target air units effectively if standing still, has only 2 wounds less yet ignores damage on a 6+ PER WOUND and can benefit from Chapter Tactics. It never degrades.

 

Ultramarines Venerables can leave combat and still shoot on a 4+ compared to the Redemptor that only hits on a 5+ and no shooting at all do a Predator.

 

The Strategums benefit Venerables more than Predators unless you have 3 of them.

 

Venerable take up an Elites slot which in a Battalion (most common detachment for Marines) has 6 slots whereas a Predator is Heavy Suport (3).

 

All for cheaper!

 

Venerables outclass Predators hands down in my eyes.

[Frater Cornelius]

But you can stuff Chronus inside a Predator :P (not applicable if you are not Spiritual Liege-y enough)

[Captain Idaho]

Chronus does make a Predator very nice. Sure it boost costs of the vehicle but it does save points in the HQ section.

 

However, Chronus is a niche. If you need a Captain and Lieutenants, Chronus isn't saving you anything.

 

Which brings me back to Dreadnoughts. Redemptors require babysitting and can't move and contribute much to the battle. They cost more and their weapons aren't doing much that the rest of the army's firepower isn't already doing.

 

They're designed for Primaris Marines. Armies that want just the new Cawl creations will want 2 Redemptors alongside probably 2 Repulsors for target saturation and army flexibility.

 

Mixed Marine forces really don't need Redemptors. Which is a shame for me because I want a giant Dreadnought :(

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

Don't forget the points you need for a delivery system as well, Idaho. You can't just waddle those guys all the way up the board and expect them to succeed. They won't even catch some armies

Stormraven with Twin Assault Cannon, Twin Multimelta, and 2 Hurricane Bolters carrying 5 Hammernators, a Chaplain, Apothecary, and an Ironclad Dreadnought FTW!

:glances wearily at his next project, the enormous pile of gray plastic on his desk that is a Raven still on its sprue:

 

...ugh.

 

Prot, in regards to the big plasma boomstick, after 3 games with my Vindicators I am of the mind that any gun which only gets D3 or D6 shots can go hang.

In the same boat with the Stormraven, but it'll stay on the sprues until they start allowing Primaris in em lol

 

Redemptors seem pretty decent for RG and would really require less babysitting.

 

And of course GW was super conservative with the new units - imagine the hate mail if they were better in any way.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Lemondish

[Captain Idaho]

The fact we're having this discussion shows us GW did it right. If there was a clear winner regardless of army composition then it wouldn't be fun. Oh and balanced ;)

[Firepower]

The fact we're having this discussion shows us GW did it right. If there was a clear winner regardless of army composition then it wouldn't be fun. Oh and balanced

 

Agreed.  Marines are spoiled for choice with many great units...for shooting.

 

And I give GW good credit for making sure the Primaris didn't just outshine Marines flat out to push the new line.  They're more or less on par with the rest of the book, but a different style.  As time goes on, we'll see, but it's all good out of the gate...with shooting.  

 

I dunno whether to feel happy that the Hurricanes for my Ironclads were worth building because they suddenly became good, or sad that the Ironclad needs to be able to shoot to reliably get at least something done.  Unless you pay out the nose for a Storm Raven to get a single one into guaranteed charge range.  

 

:goes back to looking up magnetization guides for the recently trimmed Raven bits on his desk: 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Firepower

[Frater Cornelius]

What benefit other than style does an Ironclad get with double melee compared to Hurricanes? I do not believe there are any, which is a bit silly and skews the balance towards the shooty option, even if you want to melee.

[Firepower]

The option for a second Heavy Flamer comes with the second fist.  Unfortunately, it has an 8 inch range, while a Drop Pod has to plop the Ironclad down 9 inches away. :(

Edited August 14, 2017 by Firepower

[Freman Bloodglaive]

What benefit other than style does an Ironclad get with double melee compared to Hurricanes? I do not believe there are any, which is a bit silly and skews the balance towards the shooty option, even if you want to melee.

 

If a Ironclad has two melee weapons it gets to re-roll 1s to wound vehicles IIRC. It's niche, but it is there.

[Firepower]

 

What benefit other than style does an Ironclad get with double melee compared to Hurricanes? I do not believe there are any, which is a bit silly and skews the balance towards the shooty option, even if you want to melee.

 

If a Ironclad has two melee weapons it gets to re-roll 1s to wound vehicles IIRC. It's niche, but it is there.

 

 

Not that I can find, but you re-roll all 1's to hit, and can take another Heavy Flamer or Melta.  It's a useful option.

 

If only you still got an extra attack.  4 swings can cause a lot of pain, but it's designed to crush elite units, not hordes.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Firepower

[Frater Cornelius]

Another reason the Hurricane might be superior. It covers for his weakness, if your army does not.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah I would like it if a Dreadnought had a crush attack (or the spin from DoW) that was say basic strength, AP -1/0 and did say 2D6 hits.

 

Alas, we'll just have to Bolter infantry before squashing them.

 

Still, characters do not like fighting a Dreadnought.

[Firepower]

It's dealer's choice, I think, though I feel a lot of it does depend on the delivery system.  The 9" deployment rule of deep striking really demands a Hurricane and Storm Bolter or Melta, because otherwise there's a chance he will accomplish absolutely nothing by being out of range with Heavy Flamers and failing a charge.

 

However, if you drop him from a Raven at point blank range, two Heavy Flamers and re-rolls in melee are arguably much better.  The catch is that you need a Raven (which lots of folks are taking regardless because they're awesome) and that the Heavy Flamer is more expensive than a Hurricane.

 

If only it could take two Meltas, you'd have a real elite/monster/tank bashing beast to drop on the baddies!

 

Oh, speaking of, something I keep forgetting- Hunter Killer missiles.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Firepower

[Freman Bloodglaive]

 

 

What benefit other than style does an Ironclad get with double melee compared to Hurricanes? I do not believe there are any, which is a bit silly and skews the balance towards the shooty option, even if you want to melee.

 

If a Ironclad has two melee weapons it gets to re-roll 1s to wound vehicles IIRC. It's niche, but it is there.

 

 

Not that I can find, but you re-roll all 1's to hit, and can take another Heavy Flamer or Melta.  It's a useful option.

 

If only you still got an extra attack.  4 swings can cause a lot of pain, but it's designed to crush elite units, not hordes.

 

 

Thanks. Obviously I recalled incorrectly.

[Timur]

I have given Venerable autocannon dreads a shot, and boy am I impressed.

 

After playing with the Index, the wrong points values, and now with the codex in hand and everything correct, I can say the following:

 

1# Contemptor w/ Kheres is simply amazing.   If he wasn't so pokey and prone to break, I'd snuggle with it as I sleep.

That stat line, Invun, speed.  For the price it's my favorite unit in the new edition.  I take it every game.

 

2# Ironclad w/ Hurricane bolters is a fun unit.  It's cheap (well, 2 pts. over a SB CC arm).   It's tanky with a techmarine.

I dunno why with 2 CC arms you get to re-roll ones, instead of +1 A and re-roll wds.?  I guess GW wanted to sell bolter arms cause they made Hurricane bolters a no brainer.  Some shooting to thin out mobs that otherwise bug or stall his rampage.  Yes please.

 

Also, I don't know what happens in your games, but all my units gets shot at.  I would rather make my opponent wanna shoot the Ironclad running at him, rather than say, my devs. in the back or my min sized tacs.  How often do you lose an IC before it gets to swing?  And how much firepower has gone into him not something else?

 

Both of them running up to charge/take charges works great with the rest of my army.

 

3# Ven dreads have become great units too.  BS 2 means saving a strat, to relentless another dread or assaultback for me.  2x6+ can be cute.

 

I like the dual autocannon Ven dread the best.  8 autocannon shots are very usefull for anything short of a huge mob or T8 11Wd. model.  Even then it still doesn't suck.

 

4#  The Redemptor.  I've played with it's points wrong until recently, so it's gotten more expensive=)  It's a good platform.  Lots of dice, but you pay for it. 

I like the giant plasma over the big cannon, because my local meta is shifting heavier.   I really hate rolling for shots though, Just another opportunity for dice to screw me in a turn=(.

 

It just isn't as points efficient to me as the 3 dreads I listed above.

 

It is also nice to see it get a model I actually want to buy, Instead of looking derpy and cartoony like a lot of GW's design of late.

[Jacques Corbin]

Or, being deployed in a counter assault role, 2 Heavy Flamers are quite the deterrent. Again, I think the teardrop template got more models in a horde than a d6 or two ever could, but it is still not something you want to walk into.

 

@Firepower, you are a knight, imagine the Ironclad as a big, scary dragon guarding a castle.

[Firepower]

@Firepower, you are a knight, imagine the Ironclad as a big, scary dragon guarding a castle.

 

But we always end up kicking the Salamanders out...

 

:teehee: