Our very own chapter focus! :>

[Arkangilos]

Imagine playing the night time scenario that gives the same benefit. Night missions are twice as effective for you all!

[Amayasu]

Well, email is sent. A TFC is much smaller, though arguably louder, than a Dreadnought, so I would hope they get my point, which is a yes will sell more TFCs.

 

You're emailing GW to ask about stuff that hasn't even been released yet... and is probably answered in-print when you get it?

 

This is why real customer support emails take a while.

[NiceGuyAdi]

I purchased a Stormtalon yesterday before getting far enough into the thread to realise it wasn't going to benefit from Chapter Tactics. Bum.

 

Never mind, I've wanted to make one for ages, anyway.

[duz_]

Stormtalons are awesome either way. :)

[Mr. Poe]

I just read through the White Scars teaser....damn they got some awesome rules too. It seem like we can expect really strong (and fluffy) chapter tactics / strategems for every chapter.

[duz_]

TBH I went through the others, I think ours are probably second best after UM's from a "power" perspective.

Although I think ours are the best outright for power / fluff ;)

 

The others were eh... Glad to be RG ;) :D

[SkimaskMohawk]

If Raptors still use the RG tactics then they take way more advantage of them than this weird pseudo combat push that the warlord trait, relic and shrike give

[Claws and Effect]

Korvydae body + some cool lightning claws = count-as Shrike.

 

This is exciting!

 

Like....this?

 

[Biscuittzz]

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

[Amayasu]

The rest of them are here;

http://i.imgur.com/a4xySq7.jpg

 

They're all quite strong, but very fluffy. 

 

 

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

 

My thoughts precisely. It's nice that it'll protect devastators and the like, but I'm more excited to play a full Jump army, with half on at the start and stalking the lines. This CT is perfect for RG imho.

[Claws and Effect]

Just noticed something.

 

Why is GWs Shrike model still painted as though he is 3rd Company Captain? As the Master of Shadows he shouldn't have the red trim on his right pad anymore.

[MajorNese]

The rest of them are here;

http://i.imgur.com/a4xySq7.jpg

 

They're all quite strong, but very fluffy.

Yep. Salamanders are damn good, making the most out of special/heavy weapons in a squad, and boosting literally any unit. None of the rules just work for infantry, they work for every <chapter> unit or model. Looks like the Keyword replaces the old Chapter Tactics rule, and indeed all our units benefit from it. Which is nice, screwing over all those ranged armies in one sentence. The others are quite strong too (Salamanders - reroll hit/wound with vehicle weaponry, IH - everything gets 6+ FnP), so I guess they are rather balanced.

 

As for Raptors, let's hope they get the same rule as RG. It would be both fluffy and super useful, making things like long ranged sternguard/intercessors/snipers/airforce viable. RG should benefit from it too, not just by covering their assault units during the approach, but forcing the enemy to move units closer in a few instances. There's a choice - get closer and shoot properly but get charged, or try to evade a charge but messing up one's shooting.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

The Imperial Fists CT just seems bad.  The Salamanders seem incredible.  Unending rerolls for each unit for shooting/melee, all game, every game.  Salamander lascannons and meltas are going to be fierce :<

[duz_]

I wouldn't get your hopes up about CTs affecting everything. They said multiple times on the stream last week it was infantry, bikes and dreads, which all have keywords too.

 

The additional wording before the CTs could clarify that instead of repeating it in each CT rule.

 

It also keeps referring to tactic so they could add an addition key worst to specific models too.

 

If that's not the case when the book is released than awesome. However you might want to temper expectations for now.

Edited July 18, 2017 by duz_

[SkimaskMohawk]

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

Because if you're going for a full assault list , you're going to alpha strike key units and tie others up to prevent them from shooting; you're going to load up on things that can deepstrike in addition to our stratagem that lets you deploy 9" away from models (unlike the normal pseudo infiltrate that's from deployment zone). You don't need the -1 to advance up the board, because you're already up the board; you're charging turn 1 from at most 9" away, very probably with rerolls in one form or another.

[Beaky Brigade]

Just noticed something.

 

Why is GWs Shrike model still painted as though he is 3rd Company Captain? As the Master of Shadows he shouldn't have the red trim on his right pad anymore.

 

The photo is set before his elevation to chapter master, he's using codex recommended marking variations to confuse the enemy, he's hiding the death of the chapter master. Or GW don't usually update 'eavy metal models. Take your pick :D

[Alcyon]

 

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

Because if you're going for a full assault list , you're going to alpha strike key units and tie others up to prevent them from shooting; you're going to load up on things that can deepstrike in addition to our stratagem that lets you deploy 9" away from models (unlike the normal pseudo infiltrate that's from deployment zone). You don't need the -1 to advance up the board, because you're already up the board; you're charging turn 1 from at most 9" away, very probably with rerolls in one form or another.

 

 

I think this will be tougher than it seems (which I think is a good thing, frankly alpha strikes are probably not fun for most victims.) For one, chance of a 9" charge is <50% and only gets marginally more likely with a re-roll. People are going to set up their armies so you can't tie everything up with a first turn charge, either (horde infantry is pretty cheap) and also to deny deep strike near vulnerable units. Any assault list is going to have to shred bubblewrap turn 1 and survive an enemy shooting phase with the 40-50% of units that don't make it into combat. The -1 to hit is a major boon for those units.

 

8th edition I think really encourages you to build a balanced force with a mix of assault and shooting, and I for one like that non-Shrike, non-VV lists may indeed be viable thanks to this survivability buff. I wonder how it stacks up mathematically vs. the IH 6+ FNP and how the differences affect what units each army is optimized for running. 

[Amayasu]

 

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

Because if you're going for a full assault list , you're going to alpha strike key units and tie others up to prevent them from shooting; you're going to load up on things that can deepstrike in addition to our stratagem that lets you deploy 9" away from models (unlike the normal pseudo infiltrate that's from deployment zone). You don't need the -1 to advance up the board, because you're already up the board; you're charging turn 1 from at most 9" away, very probably with rerolls in one form or another.

 

 

That's a tad short-sighted don't you think? Jump assault units make excellent Relic carries and objective grabbers. And yes, while playing an assault army you're going to pick out key targets and try for an alpha strike, you need to be able to weather the effects of a universal retreat rule that exposes your guys to shooting. Anything over 12" away is having a harder time.

 

This is a massive boon for the Raven Guard style of play.

[Kua]

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

It still does on the second glance because it doesn’t matter what GW envisaged, only what they wrote into the book.

And according to this, there is no point giving up your advantage on range if you can just… not do so.

 

Don’t take this literally, there are ofc. situations, but from an army building perspective…

[Biscuittzz]

 

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

It still does on the second glance because it doesn’t matter what GW envisaged, only what they wrote into the book.

And according to this, there is no point giving up your advantage on range if you can just… not do so.

 

Don’t take this literally, there are ofc. situations, but from an army building perspective…

 

 

You're looking at it too black and white imo. You don't give up the advantage if you are manouvering effectively to strike at targets. Nothing will change from an army building perspective and if you think the RG will become a gunline or more shooting orientated army is wide of the mark.

 

Raven Guard have never been the most shooty or assault orientated. However what we have is the ability to CONTROL what our opponents do, and imo no other Chapter has that ability. Can we make an absurd alpha strike list? Yes, and an opponent will possibly prepare for such. When we deepstrike absolutely nothing and control the board because your opponent castled up in preparation is where this control comes in.

 

The other CT's seem to require a set way of playing and having a distinct army list.

 

WS - bikes all day everyday

Sal - focused on special/heavy/ special melee weapons

BT - all out assault

IF - gunline

 

Only RG and UM have the ability to play to their advantage without having a pidgeon-holed army list and react accordingly during games. Control is the name of the game.

[Biscuittzz]

 

 

 

 how the differences affect what units each army is optimized for running. 

 

 

IMO this is the best thing about RG CT's - it won't optimise anything as much as say WS and bikes for example. Diversity is key.

[SyNidus]

 

We'll just have to wait and see when the codex drops. For my part, it's quite clear from the screenshot of the Raven Guard chapter tactics that it says "Raven Guard units". If that is the case, then any unit with the Raven Guard faction will receive the bonus. Just like other bonuses that already exist and say "<Chapter> Units".

 

Again, barring some other rule which specifies which units gain the benefit or which ones do not, then this is how it would likely work.

The screenshot speaks of “Raven Guard units with this tactic”, same as the Ultramarines screenshot from 2 days ago. I’m pretty sure that another passage will state something like “If [conditions], all infantry, bike and dreadnought units in this detachment gain the rule [CT name]”.

I stand corrected.

 

I just noticed that the rule in question is called Shadow Masters, so i imagine it's quite likely that they'd have a page for each, similar to the current index books, complete with which units receive the Shadow Masters rule and which don't, along with the stratagem, relic and warlord trait.

 

Aside from that, i agree with what Biscuit has said. The RG way has also been about more than just shooty or choppy.

[SkimaskMohawk]

 

 

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

Because if you're going for a full assault list , you're going to alpha strike key units and tie others up to prevent them from shooting; you're going to load up on things that can deepstrike in addition to our stratagem that lets you deploy 9" away from models (unlike the normal pseudo infiltrate that's from deployment zone). You don't need the -1 to advance up the board, because you're already up the board; you're charging turn 1 from at most 9" away, very probably with rerolls in one form or another.

 

 

I think this will be tougher than it seems (which I think is a good thing, frankly alpha strikes are probably not fun for most victims.) For one, chance of a 9" charge is <50% and only gets marginally more likely with a re-roll. People are going to set up their armies so you can't tie everything up with a first turn charge, either (horde infantry is pretty cheap) and also to deny deep strike near vulnerable units. Any assault list is going to have to shred bubblewrap turn 1 and survive an enemy shooting phase with the 40-50% of units that don't make it into combat. The -1 to hit is a major boon for those units.

 

8th edition I think really encourages you to build a balanced force with a mix of assault and shooting, and I for one like that non-Shrike, non-VV lists may indeed be viable thanks to this survivability buff. I wonder how it stacks up mathematically vs. the IH 6+ FNP and how the differences affect what units each army is optimized for running. 

 

 

The thrust of my argument is that you're not going to slowly advance up the field with your assault units when you have all the tools to be assaulting turn 1, and once you're fighting, they're most likely not going to be outside 12". Shadow Masters doesn't synergize with assault units for us, simply because we can bypass a lot of the attrition.

 

8th ed doesn't really reward anything except barrage alpha strike, not a balanced combined-arms approach. 

 

 

 

 

Don't understand why you're so hung up on the combat angle to our tactics. Have you ever considered that GW envisaged the -1 to hit as a survival  bonus to assault units moving in to make charges? 

 

Rather than a straight buff to shooty units further afield, which it would look like at first glance.

 

Because if you're going for a full assault list , you're going to alpha strike key units and tie others up to prevent them from shooting; you're going to load up on things that can deepstrike in addition to our stratagem that lets you deploy 9" away from models (unlike the normal pseudo infiltrate that's from deployment zone). You don't need the -1 to advance up the board, because you're already up the board; you're charging turn 1 from at most 9" away, very probably with rerolls in one form or another.

 

 

That's a tad short-sighted don't you think? Jump assault units make excellent Relic carries and objective grabbers. And yes, while playing an assault army you're going to pick out key targets and try for an alpha strike, you need to be able to weather the effects of a universal retreat rule that exposes your guys to shooting. Anything over 12" away is having a harder time.

 

This is a massive boon for the Raven Guard style of play.

 

 

Not really on the relic thing, since you're limited to 9" a turn, the only advantage is fly vis a vis moving and running; if any jump pack units are being taken its inceptors since their guns can pretty much out damage any melee variant. I assume the objective placement is cynical, as is the deployment, so my opponent wouldn't have spread all over the table; once you're in combat, you're within 12" of most of the shooting.

 

I agree Shadow Masters is a massive boon for Raven Guard, just not an alpha strikey melee variant that can seem very attractive because of other rules.

 

 

You're looking at it too black and white imo. You don't give up the advantage if you are manouvering effectively to strike at targets. Nothing will change from an army building perspective and if you think the RG will become a gunline or more shooting orientated army is wide of the mark.

 

Raven Guard have never been the most shooty or assault orientated. However what we have is the ability to CONTROL what our opponents do, and imo no other Chapter has that ability. Can we make an absurd alpha strike list? Yes, and an opponent will possibly prepare for such. When we deepstrike absolutely nothing and control the board because your opponent castled up in preparation is where this control comes in.

 

The other CT's seem to require a set way of playing and having a distinct army list.

 

WS - bikes all day everyday

Sal - focused on special/heavy/ special melee weapons

BT - all out assault

IF - gunline

 

Only RG and UM have the ability to play to their advantage without having a pidgeon-holed army list and react accordingly during games. Control is the name of the game.

 

 

Maneuvering is incredibly strong, I think we can all agree on that, but thats a terrible example. First of all, objective placement and deployment are a huge factor in the game; you better hope you lost the role off so you can get the majority of the objectives and force them to move. Second, it's not much of a control thing if you don't deepstrike* your units on the back-and-forth deployment; they just see you're deploying units and, worst case for them, just have to move foreward turn 1. Third, now you have assault units not earning their points back, probably getting shot.

 

*If you meant Strike from the Shadows instead of Deepstrike, yeah, much more chance to put them on the back foot in deployment.

 

A better use of reserved units would to be to hold them in reserve for at least a turn or two to keep your opponent in his castle and worried, and not trying to get your objectives you've cynically put all in your DZ, and then use them to basically stall them out for the rest of the game. Or use your Strike from the Shadows idea, but with strong midrange units so you can actually still damage them on turn one, something like plasma command squads or hellblasters or the like.

 

UM and RG are by far the best, with Sallies being the only other good one.

 

-Scars need to be in melee for a full turn and use melee bikes to leverage it. Melee is bad compared to shooting unless it's high impact on a durable unit.

-Cover is terrible this edition and rarely matters so yay fists

-Templars need to charge and do the whole melee thing as space marines

-Iron Hands are...ok? You're more durable than anyone but RG with Shadow Masters, but it drops substantially as soon as multiple damage comes in, which it always does. 

[Race Bannon]

I think the CT was designed to keep a whole army (or even most of it) *from* the Alpha Strike mentality.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

I think the CT was designed to keep a whole army (or even most of it) *from* the Alpha Strike mentality.

Did you mean RG?  If so... uhh?  Easily the most alpha strikey potential with the strategem.