Chaos codex release date 8/5/17

[GenerationTerrorist]

So wait, does this new World Eaters stratagem imply that Khârn/Berzerkers are losing the "May fight for a second time in that fight phase" that was in the Index:Chaos?

[Khornestar]

No, because Blood for the Blood God is a special rule in their unit entries that gives them the ability to pile in/fight twice.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Juggernut

[Azekai]

None of the armies I've run in 8e so far would get anything out of that, and I'm having a hard time thinking of one that would.  But I like the rumored stratagem, and there's still room for the warlord trait and artifact to pick up the slack.

 

I don't understand this. Being able to advance while shooting means you are faster than the other guy, sometimes significantly so. You can get to objectives to seize them first, or kite backwards while still being able to pour it on. It is a great tactic and I am not sure why anyone would dislike it.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

None of the armies I've run in 8e so far would get anything out of that, and I'm having a hard time thinking of one that would.  But I like the rumored stratagem, and there's still room for the warlord trait and artifact to pick up the slack.

 

I don't understand this. Being able to advance while shooting means you are faster than the other guy, sometimes significantly so. You can get to objectives to seize them first, or kite backwards while still being able to pour it on. It is a great tactic and I am not sure why anyone would dislike it.

 

With the hit penalty it reduces your effectiveness so much its hardly worth doing.

[dark_elf]

sfPanzer,

Yeah I think you're right in that I'm focusing on the EC trait. But is the definitive legion trait ;)

 

Regarding the fiend models those conversions are too small in my opinion. I looked into it a while back.

[Brother Aiwass]

 

 

None of the armies I've run in 8e so far would get anything out of that, and I'm having a hard time thinking of one that would.  But I like the rumored stratagem, and there's still room for the warlord trait and artifact to pick up the slack.

 

I don't understand this. Being able to advance while shooting means you are faster than the other guy, sometimes significantly so. You can get to objectives to seize them first, or kite backwards while still being able to pour it on. It is a great tactic and I am not sure why anyone would dislike it.

 

With the hit penalty it reduces your effectiveness so much its hardly worth doing.

 

Tell that to the Word Bearers :P

 

You lose 16% of effectiveness, yes, but it's a gift, not a curse; nobody's forcing you to advance and fire, and if you need your basic CSM/cultists to run, then they can still do something.

[Prot]

 

I know I keep saying this but I need to see some real changes to Abaddon. I love playing him but he's way over costed. Also the fact he doesn't give extra CP's is just wrong to me (Calgar does). Points at 200 tops should be in order too (even with bonus CP's).

 

Tactics wise I'm kind of scratching my head at advancing and shooting normally? I Just don't really build and play Black Legion lists that would truly benefit from that.

 

I'd settle for a discount to abby. Though, honestly, he doesn't strike me as terrible as is. My main complaint is more narrative - drachnyen should be a single attack dealing a bunch of mortal wounds, not a bunch of attacks dealing regular wounds.

 

I agree on the tactic. None of the armies I've run in 8e so far would get anything out of that, and I'm having a hard time thinking of one that would. But I like the rumored stratagem, and there's still room for the warlord trait and artifact to pick up the slack.

 

In some cases they are mirroring the loyalist traits. In that case I think I'd rather have the Ultramarines retreat and shoot. Also refunding CPs can be fun.

 

The thing with Abe is I see him as the anti Calgar. And Calgar gives 2 CPs and only costs 200 now. Abaddon's sword does need a bit of a rewrite. If it's not going to be more potent, then remove the good ol' chaos backfire element of it. I mean Calgars fists can't suddenly explode in his face.

 

And this is coming from an Ultramarines player too.

 

Abaddon is even more iconic than Calgar. He is a very large part of why things continue to be difficult for the Imperium. I just think he's way overdue.

 

The run 'n' gun trait is okay. I just really don't see it making a marked difference in my games.... except with a meltagun perhaps?

 

Hmmm no news on if they improve oblits?

 

They seems to keep focusing on the same go to units in the articles like YAY termies are awesome!

 

I was hoping for some more info on the different units but maybe they did not update much.

You noticed that too? Lol

 

Hey don't look at those old mutilators over there, just check out what your terminators can do!

 

I was just saying to someone else yesterday when they asked me about why I play Obliterators all the time... it's the old Iron Warrior In me. I used to play them when they had KISS boots and 80's hairband afros. But yea they need a bit of help.

Edited August 3, 2017 by Prot

[Zodd1888]

I don't expect much from Oblits unfortunately. Unless we see a significant point adjustment, movement boost (ie. can advance without penalty each turn) or a new cool rule they, along with Mutilators, will likely not see much time on the table.

[DreamIsCollapsing]

I saw a great alternative model for Slaanesh fiend, not release yet. 

 

With two wounds 3+/5++ for 22 points/models i'm wondering if Possessed are not the best antiFeP cover in the Chaos army ? Quite resilient. 

And if they survive a first turn charge ? Summon herald and cast Hysterical Frenzy : thats 2D3 attack S6 AP-2 on your turn (and yes, all the surviving possessed will attack first if EC)

 

So on average 4 attack per model, thats 0,888Hp on TEQ, 1,18 on MEQ, 2,22 on GEQ.

And i'm not even talking about the obvious lord/Daemon Prince nearby, prescience and DttFE 

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

 

You lose 16% of effectiveness, yes, but it's a gift, not a curse; nobody's forcing you to advance and fire, and if you need your basic CSM/cultists to run, then they can still do something.

 

I take your point, but it's not actually a gift. The comparison shouldn't be having it vs not having it. It is having it vs having a different Legion trait.

[Brother Aiwass]

BL also got a +1Ld, yet WB "only" got a morale re-roll. So the advance & shot ability is a plus.

[Trevak Dal]

I sort of wish that world eaters was +1 attack on charge and +1 strength. Terminators, raptors and such would be meaner than mean.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Is there any chance of a previously unleaked unit, Abaddon model, or kit update with the codex preorder, or would the internet have picked up on that already?

 

If there was, they likely would be promoting it already so that word can get out before the preorder opens on the 5th. So not impossible but unlikely.

[Sception]

Some of the rumored wordings I've seen for the BL trait have you losing a lot more than 16% efficiency.  The worst potential rumor I've seen was "can shoot rapid fire weapons as assault weapons.  This: 1) only applies to bolters and plasmaguns, the latter of which really extra special don't want that hit penalty, and 2) would cost you your second shot in addition to the hit penalty you take on the shot that's left over.

 

More generally though, between deep strike and transports, I have very rarely been in a situation where I've had any reason to advance at all, let alone cared what else I could or couldn't do while doing so.  In fact, I've advanced only twice that I can think of, once with my lord to duck behind line of sight blocking terrain - from which position I would not have been able to shoot anyway - and once with a defiler, which doesn't get legion tactics anyway.  And I can't think of any other times where I would have advanced even if I could still shoot at the same time.

 

A lot depends on the final wording of the ability, and even if it turns out to be all but useless there's still room for good stuff out of the stratagem, warlord trait, and artifact, so I'm not too worried about it.

 

That said, my Black Legion warband is mostly a post heresy CSM group with only a couple heresy vets in it, I suppose I could call them a 'renegade chapter' that is merely aligned with the Black Legion if the Black Legion abilities are super terrible overall.  Frankly, I find advancing and charging, at full power, something you might not even be able to do without advancing, to be a much, much more potent ability than advancing and shooting, something you should already be able to do without advancing, and even with the trait will do more effectively - potentially much more effectively depending on the wording - if you don't advance.

[Sception]

Frankly, I don't know why assault weapons even /have/ a penalty to hit when advancing.  It's the only thing they do this edition - everything else can already shoot and assault, while being much more powerful (heavy weapons), or getting a bunch of other, better bonuses at the same time (double shots for rapid fire, can shoot in melee for pistols).  heck, half the assault weapons seem to be flamer weapons that hit automatically anyway.

 

Eh, whatev's.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Frankly, I don't know why assault weapons even /have/ a penalty to hit when advancing.  It's the only thing they do this edition - everything else can already shoot and assault, while being much more powerful (heavy weapons), or getting a bunch of other, better bonuses at the same time (double shots for rapid fire, can shoot in melee for pistols).  heck, half the assault weapons seem to be flamer weapons that hit automatically anyway.

 

Eh, whatev's.

 

The assault penalty makes sense in the context of weapons like Sonic Blasters, where you can advance and still use them, but there's still an advantage to remaining stationary. Tbh I thought the old system of assault 2 or heavy 3 worked fine.

[Cheex]

Not sure if anyone else saw, but GW confirmed on Facebook today that Exalted Champions will be a thing and they will be conferring some kind of combat bonus. If it's anything like the Crimson Slaughter one, then it'll be a reroll to wound.

 

So, combo those berzerkers with a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champ for some extra bloody fun :)

[Drudge Dreadnought]

Not sure if anyone else saw, but GW confirmed on Facebook today that Exalted Champions will be a thing and they will be conferring some kind of combat bonus. If it's anything like the Crimson Slaughter one, then it'll be a reroll to wound.

 

So, combo those berzerkers with a Dark Apostle and an Exalted Champ for some extra bloody fun

 

Perhaps we'll finally be able to do Lost and the Damned style squads of Marine Champion + Cultists. Although it should really just be an option to buy a CSM champ in a cultist squad and have all those lovely ablative wounds.

[Sception]

Except there isn't a benefit for remaining stationary with sonic blasters, only for refraining from advancing.  Once you're moving, you're moving, imo.

 

I'm going to be blunt about this: The second part of the Black Legion trait is terrible.  It's terrible in general, and it's terrible for Black Legion in particular.  It is The Single Worst Trait out of any Chapter or Legion in either of the first two codeces.  I do not think we'll see a worse subfaction trait... ever.  I can barely even imagine what a worse subfaction trait could be.  The Black Legion trait is basically the Platonic Ideal of Bad Subfaction Rules, and I'm going to go into spoiler tags here, because this rant got a little longer than I intended.

 

First, considering it only on its own merits, and not as it relates to the Black Legion in particular.  It only applies to rapid fire weapons, which is not a long list for Heretic Astartes, consisting only of:

 

Bolters

Twin-linked Bolters / Combi Bolters

Plasmaguns

Combi-plasmaguns

The bolter part of Combi-flamers

The bolter part of Combi-meltaguns

The Talon of Horus's gun

las/autoguns

 

Before we even go any further, lets consider whether the trait is any good even with this small handful of weapons that can use it.  First of all, with combi weapons, you don't take those weapons for the bolters.  If you're firing the bolter end at all, it's because you're firing both ends, in which case you're already taking a -1 to hit with those bolters.  The extra -1 for firing them while advancing renders their output almost entirely negligible.  A single bolter shot at -2 to hit isn't even worth considering.

 

But what about plain old bolters?  If you're using this trait to advance and fire, then you're looking at a single bolter shot (assault weapons don't get x2 shots at half range), with a -1 penalty to hit.  10 Chaos Marines firing bolters while advancing will average less than a single wound against tactical marines in the open.  Against conscripts they average barely two wounds.  These shots simply do not matter, you're rolling dice for the sake of rolling dice, you aren't affecting the game.  Frankly, if my opponent even used this ability against me with bolters, I would consider it rude.  A deliberate waste of game time.

 

When it comes to plasmaguns, a big part of their value comes from the threat of overcharging the shots, especially with all the 2 wound infantry and multi-wound monsters and vehicles going around.  If you're overcharging plasma then hit penalties are the absolute last thing you want.  Even without overcharging, the deadlier your shooting is normally, the more painful any penalties to your accuracy are.  -1 to hit for a bolter is .03 fewer average wounds inflicted against marines per shot.  -1 to hit for a plasma gun is .10 fewer average wounds per shot.  The more you load up your Black Legion squads with deady plasma, the more you're incentivized /not/ to use their legion trait to advance and shoot so that you can instead fire without incurring that penalty to hit.  Basically, the more plasma guns in the unit, the less likely that extra d6" of movement is worth the reduced damage output.

 

And that's when you're at long ranges of 18.01 to 30 inches away and only getting single shots normally!  if you're at 18" away or less - such that your normal movement will get you in half range, then you're comparing each shot at -1 to hit to two shots with no penalty if you don't advance!  The difference becomes overwhelming!  And that already overwhelming difference in damage output becomes even more dramatic as the distance closes and your chance of charging if you don't advance increases!

 

So it's really only ever something to use at all if you're at long range, but how often does that actually happen?  Terminators and jump units deep strike into short range, and can't advance on the turns they do so even if they wanted to, not even with warp time.  Units in transports are also rarely stuck at long range unless their transport gets popped, and a weak consolation prize for your rhino breaking isn't a good legion trait.

 

So basically, if you care about your shooting output, then you basically never want to actually use the ability, even if you have the right guns for it, so it's only something to consider if advancing was more important than shooting, anyway, but if you're carrying plasma guns that shouldn't ever be the case, and if you're carrying bolters the shots you get out of it are so ineffective that you might as well not have shot anyway, and unless you're stuck foot slogging anyway it shouldn't even come up at all!

 

Basically the only unit that it should even be worth considering using with is las/auto gun cultists, but even then....

 

So yeah, the black legion trait is just terrible.  But I could forgive that if it were at least fluffy!  I don't think the night lords trait will prove super effective in most games, but it's at least cool and thematic!  I think the Word Bearers trait is about as bad mechanically as the Black Legions, but it at least feels appropriate in the way it represents their faith in the Word with the same mechanics used to model loyalist marines' faith in the Emperor.  But when it comes to fluff the Black Legion trait fails, if anything, even harder!

 

 

The Black Legion is, in it's core identity, the single most diverse Chaos Legion.  Its warriors don't only hail from the Sons of Horus, but from every legion, and from post-heresy renegades as well.  At the end of the Legion wars the Black Legion had the /fewest/ warriors out of any Legion apart from maybe the Thousand Sons, and now hey are the /most/ populous Chaos Legion, which by necessity means actual Sons of Horus vets are a slim minority of their warriors, the rest coming from a wide variety of backgrounds.  Abaddon, for his part, does not care /how/ his warlords do battle, only that they achieve the missions assigned to them.

 

All together, this means there /is no/ overall Black Legion fighting style.  At best, there are a few units that are commonly mentioned with the Black Legion, so while the Black Legion trait should have been relevant to any unit, it in particular should be applicable to:

 

- Terminators, particularly deep striking with a Termi Lord (more Abaddon's preference than the Legion's as a whole)

- Sorcerers (abaddon makes extensive use of them for planning, and they manage possessions to keep them non-fatal)

- Possessed (common early in their history due to SoH vets emulating Horus, who some believed was possessed)

- Berzerkers (when Abaddon isn't described as teleporting in with terminators, he's described as leading berzerkers)

- Chosen, only because the 6/7e supplements said so, no narrative reason I know of

- Basic Chaos Marines (because they're the cheapest power armored CSM squad, and the BL is the most numerous)

 

Most of those are Abaddon's personal preferences, not the preferences of the Black Legion as a whole.  The whole terminator strike thing was a Sons of Horus deal likely shared by other SoH vet warbands, but as mentioned those should be a slim minority of modern Black Legion warbands.  Out of these units, how many can even make use of the Black Legion trait?

 

Terminators like rapid fire weapons, but the Black Legion likes /deep striking/ their terminators, and deep striking units can't advance the turn they arrive, and after that they're at close range looking to double tap those guns before charging.  The trait is basically useless on them.

 

Sorcerers mostly take pisols.

 

Possessed and Berzerkers don't even get rapid fire weapons.  Black Legion possessed are literally the worst possessed, despite possessed being one of the Black Legion's signature units in the old chapter approved fluff.  Even Word Bearers get a stronger morale boost out of their legion trait.  Black Legion Berzerkers, likewise, are tied with Iron Warriors for the worst Berzerkers (ironically another undivided legion specifically noted for using 'zerks in the chapter approved fluff).  We shouldn't get the best 'zerkers, World Eaters should (and arguably do, though renegade 'zerks give them a run for their money), but we shouldn't get the worst!

 

That leaves Chosen and basic CSMs, both of which like Bolters and Plasmaguns, so those should at least be good fits, right?  Unfortunately, no!  These units are good thematic fits for Black Legion in part because they mirror the Legion's diversity and versatility.  Black Legion don't have a preferred fighting style, their warbands fight according to the preferences of their individual lords.  Maybe garrison.  Maybe seige.  Maybe gunline.  Maybe shock assault.  Maybe hit and run.  Maybe meat grinder hordes.  Maybe elite surgical strikes.  Maybe boots on the ground.  Maybe mechanized mobile armor.  Maybe heavy psyker use.  Maybe a horror show of possessed, spawn, and daemon engines.  Basic CSMs and Chosen fit well with the Black Legion because no matter what the idiosyncrasies of a given Lord, these versatile units can be tailored to it with their wide variety of options.  Maybe you take a bunch of bolters for mid range dakka, maybe you load up on pistols and chainswords for assault.  Maybe you take plasma to crack armor, maybe you load up on flamers to cut through hordes.  Maybe you take a heavy weapon for a long range option.  Maybe you give the champion a combi weapon to help with the shooting, maybe you give him a power fist for some extra punch in close combat.  maybe you take a big infantry squad and hoof it, maybe you take smaller specialized kill teams and pair them up in rhinos to deliver them to their objectives.  Whatever your army likes, you can build them for it, take whatever mark & icon to taste.

 

But all of the diversity in these units' options that so perfectly fits the diversity of the Black Legion's fluff completely falls away if you're trying to build them to take advantage of their legion trait!  Suddenly instead of squads that can be anything, they're foot slogging squads with bolters and plasmaguns and that's it.  Give them anything else and they might as well not even have a legion trait.

 

The Black Legion trait is /so terrible/ for Black Legion that it retroactively makes their fluffiest units /unfluffy/ by either discouraging you from taking them because they can't benefit from the tactic at all, or else it strips from them all the variety and diversity that otherwise characterizes both them and the Legion as a whole.

 

The Black Legion trait is literally the worst.  You can argue that Word Bearers is equally weak, but at least it doesn't discourage their favored units or render them retroactively unfluffy.  It doesn't actively strip character out of their army if you try to use it.

 

 

So if the Black Legion have no singular fighting style for their Legion Trait to model, then what should it have been instead?  Well, Black Legion don't have a singular fighting style, but they do have a singular motivation.  More so than any of the other legions, more so than the rest of them put together, the Black Legion is dedicated to toppling the Imperium and choking the last vestiges of life from the corpse god.  This was the place to put a legion trait that specifically worked on Imperial enemies.  Maybe re-roll a single failed hit or wound roll per unit per phase against Imperial targets?  Maybe Death to the False Emperor on 5+ in combat (with the slaaneshi icon doing something else), and on 6+ with shooting attacks?  Or maybe an FNP save against wounds caused by Imperials, as spite alone keeps them on their feet even after suffering seemingly mortal wounds?

 

I don't know.  There are a dozen ways that dedication to fighting the Imperium could have been modeled that would have resulted a more usable legion trait, and in particular a legion trait that wouldn't, again, actively discourage the use of half their favored units, and render the other half retroactively unfluffy by stripping from them the versatility that made them fluffy choices for the Black Legion in the first place.

 

Alternatively, you could embrace the diversity and varied origins of Black Legion warbands by given them a wildcard legion trait - basically the Black Legion would have their own Warlord Trait, Artifact, and Stratagem, but instead of having their own Legion trait you would pick whichever of the other Legions' traits best matched your army's background and your Warlord's preferred fighting style.

 

Again, there are countless ways to represent the Black Legion well, but the codex writers seem to have found the rule that most uniquely fails at representing the Black Legion at all.

Edited August 4, 2017 by malisteen

[Panzer]

Frankly, I don't know why assault weapons even /have/ a penalty to hit when advancing.  It's the only thing they do this edition - everything else can already shoot and assault, while being much more powerful (heavy weapons), or getting a bunch of other, better bonuses at the same time (double shots for rapid fire, can shoot in melee for pistols).  heck, half the assault weapons seem to be flamer weapons that hit automatically anyway.

 

Eh, whatev's.

It isn't the only thing Assault weapons do. They also let you have your maximum amount of shots at max range while being mobile.

[the jeske]

how often are you moving and require to be at max range at the end of the movment? when you backpadle, it means something deep struck near by and failed charge or something, if it is out of charge range you don't want to be moving to get more shots in/plus at this range assault weapons probably do not have the range to do anything/. It is as GW wanted to punish people for trying to get close with their units armed with assault weapons, unless they are "flamers".

[Panzer]

how often are you moving and require to be at max range at the end of the movment? when you backpadle, it means something deep struck near by and failed charge or something, if it is out of charge range you don't want to be moving to get more shots in/plus at this range assault weapons probably do not have the range to do anything/. It is as GW wanted to punish people for trying to get close with their units armed with assault weapons, unless they are "flamers".

Not often but it's not exactly about max range. Just having your maximum amount of shots without having to be within half range while being able to move without penalty is the important part here obviously.

[the jeske]

But assault weapons have a horrible number of shots. At -1bs they were worse at anti tank/MC then static hvy weapons or even rapid fire weapons, and against softer targets they either do not matter [melting one conscript out of 10 means little] or they have an uncontrolable number of shots which can end up with you failing to charge [because am assuming that we are not trying to get closer to units which are better then csm in melee].

 

 

I mean you can't even do a drop an pop with assault weapons, because flamers will be out of range and melta won't be doing extra dmg, while at the same time plasma can go rapid fire , and with the wait STR vs Wounding works in 8th the difference between the melta and the plasma guns is in favor of the plasma [as more shots> fewer shots].

Edited August 4, 2017 by the jeske

[Sception]

Yeah, assault weapons in general are pretty lackluster.  There are a few I think are ok (sonic blasters, flamers in some situations), but a bolter that's assault instead of rapid fire for a turn isn't going to be one of them, imo.  And almost none of them want to advance and shoot, since they're mostly very short ranged, so if you're shooting with them at all you might as well at least attempt a charge, especially since if you do advance instead of attempting to charge, you'll also suffer a -1 penalty to hit.

Edited August 4, 2017 by malisteen

[Mekhitar]

As a Sisters player, I advance and shoot melta all the time. It's frequently a matter of just getting the gun in 12" of range. Yes, the -1 hurts, but some chance is better than no chance, and melta damage at range - while spiky - is quite good in large enough quantities.

 

I would -love- the ability to advance and rapid fire as Sisters. It's not as good with many chaos armies, but it is still useful. Consider the occasion when your unit starts just over 18" away. A 6" move won't increase the efficacy of your bolters - still 10 shots on a 10 man squad (6.7 hits). What's more, you are still out of charge range. If, however, you can also advance, you are now in double tap range, albeit with -1 to hit. That's 20 shots, or 10 hits, plus the benefit of the extra move.

 

It seems like this trait gives added mobility to "basic" black legion stuff - csms with melta/flame and bolters filling it the squad - things you don't necessarily want charging anyway; cheaper backfield squads that can hop from objective to objective with the enhance depth move, without sacrificing too much firepower to do so. No, it's not a helpful trait on a full plasma squad. But slow moving termies with combi bolters who have already deepstruck in and cleared their local enemies, but now really need to hoof it to lend their support elsewhere? The black legion trait lets you have some of the most adaptable, do-all-things tactical options, as a faster moving fire base, that imo reflects their elite organizational fluff (along with +1 LD) pretty well.

 

I like it more than the EC trait, and I PLAY EC! (Not that the trait would suit EC; it's not useful for noise marines. But I am talking in the general sense.)