The Black Legion

[HeritorA]

 

If I'm not wrong the Indomitus Crusade moves the setting up by 100 years but Guilliman's discovery of the flaws in the Imperial dating system means it could be anwhere between 101.M41 and 101.M42?

 

If the Gathering Storm narrative occurred in 999.M41, then it's 111.M42 now; the Indomitus Crusade has lasted 112 years, per Guy Haley's Dark Imperium.

 

But Dark Imperium itself has Guilliman musing on how inaccurate the Imperial dating system is, so that's a big if.

 

Yeap - get to Dark Imperium cause I saw that I can't miss it. So - it's M41K. Guilliman explained it pretty solid. Bye Bye W40K

 

As for the 'If the Gathering Storm narrative occurred in 999.M41, then it's 111.M42 now; the Indomitus Crusade has lasted 112 years, per Guy Haley's Dark Imperium.'

 

GS occured in 999.M40, then it's 111.M41 now.

[Loesh]

Considering the implications of the Chronostrife, it could be Warhammer 78k for all we know.

[HeritorA]

Considering the implications of the Chronostrife, it could be Warhammer 78k for all we know.

For me it seems that Chronostrife was included specifically to severe the knot of time/data and chronicles. Not the best I would say.

'What time is it' - asked Guilliman - 'well 999 years and 9000 from the point the Empra was 'stabbed', answered poor Custodes guardian.

'Well - I don't like the number- forget everything, it's unknown time now - cause I say so' - said Guilliman.

[DukeLeto69]

Hmmm two things for me...

 

1. This time shift thingy is a plain weird idea for me. Why not simply advance the timeline and be done with it? Can still be called W40k in the same way 2000AD comic is still called that in 2017 or 20th Century Fox is still the same. Also, what is the "present" for the tabletop game? Is it immediately after The Gathering Storm or at the end of the Indomitus Crusade and the Dark Imperium novel?

 

However, that is a little off topic (so may have to cut n paste that into the thread on Dark Imperium so...

 

2. Really curious what ADB thinks about all this (and he clearly will have known for a while) and whether it changes any of his thinking around the Black Legion series... The setting as was meant (I thought) that the 13th Black Crusade was raging and in the "present time" and therefore nothing is set or concluded... And so the Black Legion series does not have a known outcome which for me at least was a cool concept... Just seeing Abaddon etc evolve and gear up for THAT final showdown.

[cheywood]

Doesn't the series explore the beginning of the Black Crusades and how Abaddon became who he is as opposed to the 13th BC? Maybe there will be a time jump after the second novel?

[DukeLeto69]

Doesn't the series explore the beginning of the Black Crusades and how Abaddon became who he is as opposed to the 13th BC? Maybe there will be a time jump after the second novel?

Yes so far but (and I may have dreamed this) I was under the impression that ADB's ambition is to eventually come right up to the present. I guess I thought (hoped) this would become a long running series (like Gaunt's Ghosts but with time jumps) that would cover origins of Black Legion and also all of Abaddon's black crusades.

 

Again I liked (hoped) that one of ADB's objectives was to change perceptions people have that the first 12 black crusades were failures. I liked the idea that they were actually all part of a deep and darker purpose with linked objectives that is not apparent until you know the pattern.

[cheywood]

Oh you may be entirely right in that case. I'd be up for that. I thought I read it would be a trilogy, but I could've dreamed that myself.

 

Edit: I take back all my words (assuming this is still current)

 

https://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/tag/the-talon-of-horus/

[Marshal Loss]

As, from memory, Black Legion does not show Abaddon attaining Drach'nyen, I would expect that the third novel would not start with a large time jump - it will probably continue reasonably close to after they've broken out of the eye for the first time. Something like book 2 = forming the Legion + Sigismund, book 3 = Black Crusade + Drach'nyen.

 

In other news, I am terribly excited for this. Might have to fork out for express shipping. Guessing it will go up for preorder start of next month

[grailkeeper]

Out of interest does anyone know how many books are planned for the series. The number 13 is floating around my head for some reason.

[A D-B]

2. Really curious what ADB thinks about all this (and he clearly will have known for a while) and whether it changes any of his thinking around the Black Legion series... The setting as was meant (I thought) that the 13th Black Crusade was raging and in the "present time" and therefore nothing is set or concluded... And so the Black Legion series does not have a known outcome which for me at least was a cool concept... Just seeing Abaddon etc evolve and gear up for THAT final showdown.

 

I did know for a while, yeah. Right now so much is up in the air at HQ, lore-wise, and I'm still deep in my Space Marine novel, so it's hard to get a solid reading on where Abaddon is from say, 6, 12, or 18 months ago when I last touched base each time.

 

To be entirely candid, I don't know whether the series will continue. That's not an indictment of current or future lore, so I'd implore people not to take it in a negative way, but it gets very, very wearying having several novels in a row have their fundamental IP cores shifted in mid-writing. That's a danger of IP work, and no one's fault, but those truths don't make it any less tiring. My Abaddon (and all my Chaos lore) is pretty much based on Andy Chambers' work from 2nd Edition and from discussions with insiders either from that era or who love that stuff best. That doesn't mean I dislike anything new, but it informs the vibe and the theme. It also means it comes with a risk of Things Changing. Less of a risk before, obviously, but with 8th Edition, nothing's nailed down any more.

 

If there are fundamental shifts in Abaddon's character, then yeah, I'll need to rethink the series and probably abandon it. Not out of spite or even irritation, but I signed up to illustrate X, and if it's now Y, I'd rather devote my time elsewhere. For example, one of the core tenets of Abaddon's existence is that he's strong where Horus was weak - he's refused to commit to the Chaos Gods where Horus was duped by them. If that's changed (as a wild example for the sake of this explanation, not as a hint of what's to come) then I'd have no interest in continuing to illustrate the character or his Legion. One of the most interesting things about Chaos characters is, of course, how they're deceived, duped, and naive in their progress along the Path to Glory, so to speak. And that's cool! But resisting that was Abaddon's defining trait for most of his existence, so a change that severe - or of a similar vibe - would mean rethinking the plan.

 

Again, just a wild example. Not speculation or a hint.

 

Times they are a-changin'. A lot of it is awesome, but there's plenty of stuff I don't want to write about, too.

 

 

 

Doesn't the series explore the beginning of the Black Crusades and how Abaddon became who he is as opposed to the 13th BC? Maybe there will be a time jump after the second novel?

Yes so far but (and I may have dreamed this) I was under the impression that ADB's ambition is to eventually come right up to the present. I guess I thought (hoped) this would become a long running series (like Gaunt's Ghosts but with time jumps) that would cover origins of Black Legion and also all of Abaddon's black crusades.

 

Again I liked (hoped) that one of ADB's objectives was to change perceptions people have that the first 12 black crusades were failures. I liked the idea that they were actually all part of a deep and darker purpose with linked objectives that is not apparent until you know the pattern.

 

 

It was supposed to be a long-running series, yeah. I'm not going to write it if it opposes other sources going forward, though. As an example, I was told from several levels of IP management not to reference the Legion organisation and the characters/events mentioned in the Black Legion supplement going forward if I didn't want to, for various reasons I won't bring up here. All good. That's IP work for you. But then Gathering Storm came out and reinforced all of that stuff. You could then say "Well, 'The Studio' (as if such a monolithic entity really exists) says that's what the Black Legion is, after all." Except, realistically, I know from behind the scenes that it was written freelance by X who went with what references he had, was done like that for reasons Y and Z, and so on. Not to intentionally contradict me, but equally not wanting to name my characters in any sourcebook without knowing my future plans for them. So it's not as cut and dried right now as saying "We're going to keep disagreeing, so I'm done here."

 

I don't - at this moment - know much at all. No one does right now. I'm sure I'll sit down with peeps at HQ to discuss Abaddon and the Black Legion in the near future, which'll be all good. (The series has made them a lot of bank, so I suspect they'd like it to continue.) If they're taking him in a different direction that I'm not interested in writing about, that's all good, too. No harm, no foul.

 

 

As, from memory, Black Legion does not show Abaddon attaining Drach'nyen, I would expect that the third novel would not start with a large time jump - it will probably continue reasonably close to after they've broken out of the eye for the first time. Something like book 2 = forming the Legion + Sigismund, book 3 = Black Crusade + Drach'nyen.

 

I imagine Book 3 starting a few years into the grinding deadlock of the First Black Crusade, with Khayon in a severely bad mood. He's not a fan of the whole Drach'nyen thing. I don't know for certain if he'd try to stop Abaddon's claim, but he's very much not on board with it, either.

 

 

Out of interest does anyone know how many books are planned for the series. The number 13 is floating around my head for some reason.

 

Originally, BL mentioned it running as long as I wanted, a la Gaunt's Ghosts.

[Marshal Loss]

Oh, :cuss. I'd be absolutely devastated if the series was brought to an abrupt halt. It has been immense for me (and so many of us, frankly, judging from what I see on the forums), and the second book isn't even out yet. I really, really hope that doesn't eventuate, even if the reasoning behind any potential decision sounds very justified.

[Celtic_cauldron]

Oh, . I'd be absolutely devastated if the series was brought to an abrupt halt. It has been immense for me (and so many of us, frankly, judging from what I see on the forums), and the second book isn't even out yet. I really, really hope that doesn't eventuate, even if the reasoning behind any potential decision sounds very justified.

 

+1

 

Even though your reasons would be more than understandable, that would be a shame, especially because you capitalized on 2nd Ed. lore about Abbadon to make him a so much more interesting character.

 

In my opinion the way you describe your characters' psychology is just excellent: Khârn, Talos, Abbadon... All of them are  more than simple Evil Guys , which is often the way they are described in the Codex (at least for Abbadon and Khârn). That's of great added value.

 

Celtic_Cauldron

[1ncarnadine]

I don't - at this moment - know much at all. No one does right now. I'm sure I'll sit down with peeps at HQ to discuss Abaddon and the Black Legion in the near future, which'll be all good. (The series has made them a lot of bank, so I suspect they'd like it to continue.) If they're taking him in a different direction that I'm not interested in writing about, that's all good, too. No harm, no foul.

 

 

Soooooooo. You wouldn't happen to have any interest in being on the writing staff of whatever form of Black Legion codex or campaign book might come out in the future, eh? Or does codex writing for "the studio" imply a step up to salary and more intimate work at HQ or something? It doesn't really sound like it, but it's hard to tell from outside sometimes. Would they offer this kind of writing position, or have they? Would you even want to, if it's considerably model-driven and you get little freedom to write?

 

We'll fight them if it sounds like this series will die. Seriously. Maybe one person will show up with a sign for a little bit outside a GW store (somewhere), and there will be angry e-mails and tweets. We may even say mean things on their Facebook page for a few weeks.

[DukeLeto69]

ADB - I get where you are coming from but like others I would be most disappointed for the Black Legion series to not continue. So much lost potential.

 

Hopefully any discussions with Black Library and GW Studio regarding Abaddon are all good and support your (informed by 2nd Ed) views on Abaddon.

 

At the VERY LEAST I would hope you make it a trilogy and we get to read about the 1st Black Crusade and securing THAT sword (whose name I cannot spell).

[Loesh]

 

 

Originally, BL mentioned it running as long as I wanted, a la Gaunt's Ghosts.

 

 

I'd absolutely love that. Originally when I came to the board years ago I was a strict Emperor's Children fan, but with Nick Kymes Perfection and Reynolds Primogenitor i'v increasingly become a fan of the much more common mixed warbands in the 41st millennium and the dynamic that brings, ironically just as legion rules became a thing again.

 

Hell even the fluff for my primary warband is mixed now, with an axe wielding Sorcerer who used to be part of Eidolons detachment to fight the Scars, trying to master Maru Skara to model himself after the Auric Hammer which makes him look good in the eyes of the Third Legionnaires but like a complete tool to the collection of Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Black Legionnaires tagging along who never much liked Eidolon during the Great Crusade. Even the other Chaos Legion guys in my gaming group joke with me about it, i'd like to see more teeth clenched teamwork between the Legions like that present in 40k instead of the single god/Primarch genesource we usually get and the Black Legions one of the few things in 40k where it's a deliberate mix of several Primarchs. 

[Vesper]

Oh Aaron, giving us the feels again.

 

I'd mourn that series sincerly if it was to end, and to be fair it's the one big thing keeping me in 40k these days so I pray the studio keeps writing on Guiliman forever while forgetting there is a galaxy around him.

 

You're the man, dude.

[Scribe]

No harm no foul he says right after laying the path for how the series could go poof. :p

 

I despise, desperately, the idea of this settings lore being up in the air.

 

Nothing remains for me in 40k but the lore....

[HeritorA]

A D-B thank you for the insight. As usual it is much appreciated.

As for the Black Legion running for awhile - we are all for it. A lot of stories to tell. From 1 to 13 Black Crusade and then up to the Imperium Nihilis. Plus I do believe you could make it work with the new Dark Imperium. Plus GW should see thet the serie could be a golden mine for old and new players/readers uniting a lot of dots.

 

Also - in case of 'fundamental shifts in Abaddon's character' - even if where would be a lot - you of all persons should be able to do justice by him. I still think that  resisting the Chaos domination is one of the Abaddon's defining traits. And probably it wouldn't be changed on grandeur scope.

 

A question through - with all the changes, retconnes and updates - Khayon fate is at the fore. He is at the hand of the Inquistion, but what era is this? Is this pre-Imperium Nihilis? Or during/post the events of the Gathering Storm. In that case is that possible that Guilliman himself interogated him?

[Marshal Loss]

Page for the Limited Edition and standard was just updated:

 

 

This title will be available to order on the 12th of August.

 

Mildly annoyed, as for other titles we've been able to order a month prior to release. Oh well, at least we have a date.

 

You can find an extract here.

 

And coolest of all, Thagus Daravek appears to have been of the Death Guard. As if I could get any more excited!

[Vesper]

The page you linked is about the standard version of the book. We might be able to pre-order the First Edition.

 

Edit : just saw the FE page got updated, as you said.

 

[Marshal Loss]

The page you linked is about the standard version of the book. We might be able to pre-order the First Edition.

 

Edit : just saw the FE page got updated, as you said.

 

 

I linked the standard version because it has an extract available, while the limited edition does not.

 

edit: anyway, the extract is brilliant. This feels like a real treat for me - Death Guard feature! Niiiiiice.

[Vesper]

Extract was amazing. Death Guard and Daravek are awesome. Life in the Eye is still the greatest thing to read in 40k since Talon of Horus and Primogenitor.

[Marshal Loss]

Introducing Iskandar Khayon, sass-king of Chaos:

 

 

 

It was my duty as Abaddon’s silent blade that brought me to the fortress of Thagus Daravek, Warlord of This, Master of That, Butcher of Them and a dozen other titles that I refuse to consign to parchment even all these millennia later.

[Sandlemad]

The shade he throws at Ahriman for his "habit for blending humility with arrogance", dang.

 

I like how ADB complicates what could be a simple bit of fanservice over ranking the greatest psykers into something more interesting. Ahirman sez this but he's a manipulative creep. Khayon can't resist a minor humblebrag over killing his rivals or returning to his low opinion of precognition. Either way it's down to reputation.

 

Yep, still jazzed for this.

[Sete]

Still interested in reading about Sigismund last stand.

 

The Eternal Crusader needs to reap a tally tho.