The Black Legion

[Sete]

Well I shall be avoiding this thread until I read my book.

[Anthedon]

Ah crap, are the LEs all gone?

[Marshal Rohr]

Went ahead and got it through iBooks. youre the man, ADB. I wasn't gonna wait for this one.

[Kelborn]

Just finished reading it in one sitting. It's very good.

 

The Ezekarion's realisation of the farcically ironic changes in the Imperium whilst they have been in exile was particularly well done. Abaddon's development is also handled well with the loose threads of his image being plucked upon by prophesy and circumstance, starting to make them fray.

 

Khayon is excellent.

 

Sigismund gets a good send-off.

 

Left me wanting more.

 

I'm not interested in all revealing spoilers or something similar but I'm curious about one little thing regarding Sigismund:

 

What happens to him after being defeated? Just want to know if Abaddon is honorable enough to give his body back to the Black Templars / treats him as a worthy & honorable adversary and thus his legacy (geneseed) could still be out there OR quite the opposite?

 

If this turns out to be a mindblowing spoiler...I'm not sure if I want to know it right now. ^^

[Nazguire]

 

Just finished reading it in one sitting. It's very good.

 

The Ezekarion's realisation of the farcically ironic changes in the Imperium whilst they have been in exile was particularly well done. Abaddon's development is also handled well with the loose threads of his image being plucked upon by prophesy and circumstance, starting to make them fray.

 

Khayon is excellent.

 

Sigismund gets a good send-off.

 

Left me wanting more.

 

I'm not interested in all revealing spoilers or something similar but I'm curious about one little thing regarding Sigismund:

 

What happens to him after being defeated? Just want to know if Abaddon is honorable enough to give his body back to the Black Templars / treats him as a worthy & honorable adversary and thus his legacy (geneseed) could still be out there OR quite the opposite?

 

If this turns out to be a mindblowing spoiler...I'm not sure if I want to know it right now. ^^

 

 

 

Spoiler below.

 

Up to you if you wish to read. I personally think it's something you should read yourself as a fantastic end note for a great story, but ask and you shall receive I guess.

 

Sigismund's body is sent to Terra in a Black Templars' ship called the Valorous Vow. His body is shown respect, for the most part, and Abaddon personally attends to Sigismund's body by cleaning Sigismund's face of blood.  The Black Sword is engraved by Khayon with three words.

 

'We Are Returned'.

[Kelborn]

Thanks.

 

Knowing this will not ruin the end for me. I assumed something like this and nor I'm more eager to read it. Can't wait until it's released in my country. :D

[Nazguire]

Do we want to discuss spoilers yet, or give people a couple days to read and digest? It's a really entertaining book.

[Forward Assist]

Kroeger - Lheor has a few good moments but, as a warlord of the Ezekarion in his own right, isn't with Khayon as much as he was in Talon. The pair have some quite good banter in one of the closing chapters.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Do we want to discuss spoilers yet, or give people a couple days to read and digest? It's a really entertaining book.

 

As long as it's wrapped in Spoiler quotes, nobody can cry foul.

[Marshal Rohr]

What was the name they used for psychic assassins? There was a special name with a DnD styling.

[HeritorA]

And purchased - I wish I knew how the Black Library release schedule worked. I know GW does it Saturday releases at 10am and FW on Fridays at 9am, but this seemed a little random.

 

Anyway, LE ordered and another for the signing pile when A-D-B gets back to the UK...

 

That's the first time in my life - I WAS INFORMED I WOULD BE ABLE TO ORDER THE PRE-ORDER.

 

Whole week since July 31st it was 'This title will be available to order on the 5th of August as an eBook, Hardback and MP3.)'

 

Guess what I/you/them/it saw on August 5th? 'This is a pre-order title, available to download from 12 Aug 2017.'

This time even the cheeriest and happiest of you wouldn't be able to cover for their :cuss up with excuses.

 

No pun intended for A D-B.

It's almost the same merchandising :cuss up they did with the release of Resurrection and Shroud of Night in one day, instead of releasing them separately with the 7 days threshold between them.

 

Now I'm not sure that I would be able to read Lucius on the 19th?

'This title will be available to order on the 19th of August as an eBook and Hardback.'

With what happened to BL I could deduce that it will be available to order the pre-order

[cheywood]

 

 

And purchased - I wish I knew how the Black Library release schedule worked. I know GW does it Saturday releases at 10am and FW on Fridays at 9am, but this seemed a little random.

 

Anyway, LE ordered and another for the signing pile when A-D-B gets back to the UK...

That's the first time in my life - I WAS INFORMED I WOULD BE ABLE TO ORDER THE PRE-ORDER.

 

Whole week since July 31st it was 'This title will be available to order on the 5th of August as an eBook, Hardback and MP3.)'

 

Guess what I/you/them/it saw on August 5th? '

This is a pre-order title, available to download from 12 Aug 2017.'

This time even the cheeriest and happiest of you wouldn't be able to cover for their :cuss up with excuses.

 

No pun intended for A D-B.

It's almost the same merchandising :cuss up they did with the release of Resurrection and Shroud of Night in one day, instead of releasing them separately with the 7 days threshold between them.

 

Now I'm not sure that I would be able to read Lucius on the 19th?

'This title will be available to order on the 19th of August as an eBook and Hardback.'

With what happened to BL I could deduce that it will be available to order the pre-order

It's really not that big of a deal. BL switched to a different preorder system and didn't clarify it as well as they could have. It's unfortunate it happened with such an anticipated release, but now we know what they mean by 'available to order'. The book's still coming, and having to wait a week won't affect its quality one bit.

[Sandlemad]

Yep, this was good. Freighted with a lot of expectations but still delivered. There were a surprising amount of 'firsts' in it for the second book in the series, which I suppose should've been expected.

 

Khayon was great. Without spoiling any details, he's evolved and changed quite a bit. It's not as though his character development ceases now he's a privileged member of the Ezekarion. To a degree he's got what he was after in ToH - purpose and brotherhood - but he's not 'safe' or content, so to speak. It's a great look at how it's not a given that he'll retain the favour of Abaddon

 

Some rambling and too-lengthy thoughts on a few minor surprises and interesting points (spoilers abound):

- The appearance of the Warp Ghosts. Not a huge subject but this was fascinating, both for taking a pretty standard CSM renegades faction and making them interesting and for the time-warpery shenanigans. Made me think of the Blind Oracle from John French's Ahriman books; not 'just' astartes but not on the typical champion's path to daemonhood. 

Something weird, certainly not human anymore, and not easily reducible to a set of keywords and special rules. Expanding the range of weirdness and unknowability that chaos offers. It's compelling in a mythical way, as Charon-esque ferrymen and gives them more depth than simply johnny-come-lately raiders when set against the heresy veterans.

 

- Having Vortigern, a Fallen DA, as one of Abaddon's earliest lieutenants was a nice touch. Shame that Valicar and Ceraxia took a bit of back seat - would’ve liked to know more about how they lost Gallium and joined up - but it’s a big cast and we have a while. It’s kind of lampshaded by ADB when Khayon says that his account will gain nothing by relating every tale of a warband bending the knee or being crushed as they’re largely the same.

 

- Relationships between the Ezekarion. Khayon isn’t exactly secure in his role. I liked how he could consciously know of the importance of his role as psyker-assassin and executioner but can still feel sidelined, in turn causing Lheor to stare at him and remind him that some of them actually have to lead armies of berzerkers and fight for a living.

Lheor’s matured well. Still the same old brash arsehole but wearing the mantle of command pretty well, certainly better than Telemachon.

 

It was fascinating to see how Telemachon and Khayon are at a strange intermediary stage. Cool with each other, the events of ToH more or less forgiven, but Telemachon still idly backstabbing and bristling at Khayon’s standing with Abaddon. We knew that they end up trying to kill each other multiple times but now we know that this was closer to a full-scale civil war in the legion. Will be interesting to see their not-friendship sour, probably over Nefertari.

The other members were fairly lightly sketched in but Amurael was a decent straight man for the others to bounce off of.

 

- Morianna is suitably dislikeable. Already you can see the factionalism that she introduces or embodies. Shades of Morgana or maybe Nimue in Cornwall’s Arthur books.

 

- If the last book was a detailed look at life in the Eye for warbands, this is a detailed look at how the Black Legion functions or does not function. How it holds together, what warlords are rewarded, how it fights for territory, how resources are gathered. Felt like it was worn more lightly than before though. ToH really had to ram home the important point that the SoH are not the Black Legion, for example, and there’s none of that here.

 

- A portrait in failure. It’s a brave choice to make your POV character genuinely screw up multiple times and have his friends and allies actually call him out on it and even question his worth. It’s that theme of failure, rather than betrayal, that’s picked up here but also appeared strongly in The First Heretic and the Master of Mankind. It’s a tenuous position Khayon’s in; if he’s shown himself to be useless, he’s not just vulnerable to others of the Ezekarion putting him down, he’s vulnerable to Abaddon shrugging and having his throat slit. It’s a far cry from all the talk of brotherhood in ToH but it feels realistic. He’s a lord of the legion but his closeness to Abaddon won’t save him if he can’t justify himself.

 

He’s lost his drive too. Now that he has his brotherhood and his purposeful role in the legion, well… he’s not got the same push or ambition or burning hatred driving him on that Abaddon has. He’s not coasting but his heart’s not in it until Abaddon really starts forcing him.

You see it as well in his duel with Daravek’s champion, where he is acknowledged as a pretty poor warrior in single combat. 

 

- Sigismund. As good as hoped, a well-drawn fight that didn’t linger too much over the individual blade strokes. I liked the line about how age had only brought him from a superfluously skilled warrior down to the level of the greatest champions of chaos. Some cunning toying around with fan-service, pulling our viewpoint away at the moment of the final blow, only to return to it later as a flashback. Makes you wonder if Sigismund’s body ever found its way back to the Black Templars fleets or if the High Lords ‘lost’ it or if he’s got a grand tomb on Terra.

 

- Some good thoughts on the difference between being a skilled 1-1 fighter versus… everything else. Abaddon is strong, a breaker of shieldwalls and a king of battle, crashing into enemy lines like a terminator-clad juggernaut, but Khayon admits that Telemachon or Vortigern, the fallen DA warrior, could comfortably beat him in a duel. All this is before Drach’nyen of course, but it was still interesting. 

 

Khayon can unmake someone with sorcery but in a plain contest of swords, he’s not typically going to win. Can’t help wonder if this to some degree a response to criticism of him being such a powerful psyker in ToH, feels like balancing the character a little. He certainly takes his lumps in this book.

 

- The scene where Khayon out and out asks Abaddon if he’s Horus’s clone or clone-son or something Bile created. True to form, Abaddon just laughs regally and asks if it really changes anything.

 

- The whole book has an even longer perspective than ToH. ToH had that with glimpses of the then-future fight with SIgismund and mention of Lheor eventually dying on Mackan but it was weighted towards the end of the book and there’s more reflection here.

Khayon’s dread of Drach’nyen, seeing the talon of Horus as a precursor of sorts, and the division that Moriana sows concerning the will of the gods as a precursor of the disagreements that the sword will foster amongst the Ezekarion. Flashs forwards to what Abaddon will eventually be, surrounded by choirs of daemons, impossible to look at without causing psykers pain.

 

- I get the impression that this is the Abaddon book ADB wanted to write, the fruition of a lot of the stuff he’s said on his blog and in interviews and on the B&C. ToH was the story to get us here, the background setting and the character setup.

This has less… lore, if that’s the right word, than others. Less metaphysics of the warp than ToH, less exploration of the different angles of a single character than Master of Mankind. Khayon has his very Tizcan little lectures to his listerners but it’s more obviously a second book in that it’s more obviously driven by plot and stuff happening. 

Normally that’s not what I’m after but it also felt more ‘mature’, I guess, in its writing? More technically confident, more natural in its flow, less stopping to explain this bit of character background or this aspect of the background.

More writerly tricks, like delving into Khayon semi-possessing other characters (ADB’s definitely done this type of thing before, thinking of the montage in Helsreach), more jumping back and forward in time and how Khayon’s narration is situated, more willingness to leave gaps for the reader to fill in, more confidence that readers have a good handle on the ambiguity of the setting and how different characters can have different perspectives on events that they were both at. It’s good stuff.

 

 

- That little line about Abaddon finally tiring of Cadia and wiping it off the galactic map like excrement off his boot was delightfully arrogant but also felt like something slotted in neatly and perfunctorily later in the writing process to fit with 8th ed. I’m probably wrong, seeing as everything has been in development for so long, but it stood out a little.

[HeritorA]

 

Yep, this was good. Freighted with a lot of expectations but still delivered. There were a surprising amount of 'firsts' in it for the second book in the series, which I suppose should've been expected.

 

Khayon was great. Without spoiling any details, he's evolved and changed quite a bit. It's not as though his character development ceases now he's a privileged member of the Ezekarion. To a degree he's got what he was after in ToH - purpose and brotherhood - but he's not 'safe' or content, so to speak. It's a great look at how it's not a given that he'll retain the favour of Abaddon

 

Some rambling and too-lengthy thoughts on a few minor surprises and interesting points (spoilers abound):

- The appearance of the Warp Ghosts. Not a huge subject but this was fascinating, both for taking a pretty standard CSM renegades faction and making them interesting and for the time-warpery shenanigans. Made me think of the Blind Oracle from John French's Ahriman books; not 'just' astartes but not on the typical champion's path to daemonhood. 

Something weird, certainly not human anymore, and not easily reducible to a set of keywords and special rules. Expanding the range of weirdness and unknowability that chaos offers. It's compelling in a mythical way, as Charon-esque ferrymen and gives them more depth than simply johnny-come-lately raiders when set against the heresy veterans.

 

- Having Vortigern, a Fallen DA, as one of Abaddon's earliest lieutenants was a nice touch. Shame that Valicar and Ceraxia took a bit of back seat - would’ve liked to know more about how they lost Gallium and joined up - but it’s a big cast and we have a while. It’s kind of lampshaded by ADB when Khayon says that his account will gain nothing by relating every tale of a warband bending the knee or being crushed as they’re largely the same.

 

- Relationships between the Ezekarion. Khayon isn’t exactly secure in his role. I liked how he could consciously know of the importance of his role as psyker-assassin and executioner but can still feel sidelined, in turn causing Lheor to stare at him and remind him that some of them actually have to lead armies of berzerkers and fight for a living.

Lheor’s matured well. Still the same old brash arsehole but wearing the mantle of command pretty well, certainly better than Telemachon.

 

It was fascinating to see how Telemachon and Khayon are at a strange intermediary stage. Cool with each other, the events of ToH more or less forgiven, but Telemachon still idly backstabbing and bristling at Khayon’s standing with Abaddon. We knew that they end up trying to kill each other multiple times but now we know that this was closer to a full-scale civil war in the legion. Will be interesting to see their not-friendship sour, probably over Nefertari.

The other members were fairly lightly sketched in but Amurael was a decent straight man for the others to bounce off of.

 

- Morianna is suitably dislikeable. Already you can see the factionalism that she introduces or embodies. Shades of Morgana or maybe Nimue in Cornwall’s Arthur books.

 

- If the last book was a detailed look at life in the Eye for warbands, this is a detailed look at how the Black Legion functions or does not function. How it holds together, what warlords are rewarded, how it fights for territory, how resources are gathered. Felt like it was worn more lightly than before though. ToH really had to ram home the important point that the SoH are not the Black Legion, for example, and there’s none of that here.

 

- A portrait in failure. It’s a brave choice to make your POV character genuinely screw up multiple times and have his friends and allies actually call him out on it and even question his worth. It’s that theme of failure, rather than betrayal, that’s picked up here but also appeared strongly in The First Heretic and the Master of Mankind. It’s a tenuous position Khayon’s in; if he’s shown himself to be useless, he’s not just vulnerable to others of the Ezekarion putting him down, he’s vulnerable to Abaddon shrugging and having his throat slit. It’s a far cry from all the talk of brotherhood in ToH but it feels realistic. He’s a lord of the legion but his closeness to Abaddon won’t save him if he can’t justify himself.

 

He’s lost his drive too. Now that he has his brotherhood and his purposeful role in the legion, well… he’s not got the same push or ambition or burning hatred driving him on that Abaddon has. He’s not coasting but his heart’s not in it until Abaddon really starts forcing him.

You see it as well in his duel with Daravek’s champion, where he is acknowledged as a pretty poor warrior in single combat. 

 

- Sigismund. As good as hoped, a well-drawn fight that didn’t linger too much over the individual blade strokes. I liked the line about how age had only brought him from a superfluously skilled warrior down to the level of the greatest champions of chaos. Some cunning toying around with fan-service, pulling our viewpoint away at the moment of the final blow, only to return to it later as a flashback. Makes you wonder if Sigismund’s body ever found its way back to the Black Templars fleets or if the High Lords ‘lost’ it or if he’s got a grand tomb on Terra.

 

- Some good thoughts on the difference between being a skilled 1-1 fighter versus… everything else. Abaddon is strong, a breaker of shieldwalls and a king of battle, crashing into enemy lines like a terminator-clad juggernaut, but Khayon admits that Telemachon or Vortigern, the fallen DA warrior, could comfortably beat him in a duel. All this is before Drach’nyen of course, but it was still interesting. 

 

Khayon can unmake someone with sorcery but in a plain contest of swords, he’s not typically going to win. Can’t help wonder if this to some degree a response to criticism of him being such a powerful psyker in ToH, feels like balancing the character a little. He certainly takes his lumps in this book.

 

- The scene where Khayon out and out asks Abaddon if he’s Horus’s clone or clone-son or something Bile created. True to form, Abaddon just laughs regally and asks if it really changes anything.

 

- The whole book has an even longer perspective than ToH. ToH had that with glimpses of the then-future fight with SIgismund and mention of Lheor eventually dying on Mackan but it was weighted towards the end of the book and there’s more reflection here.

Khayon’s dread of Drach’nyen, seeing the talon of Horus as a precursor of sorts, and the division that Moriana sows concerning the will of the gods as a precursor of the disagreements that the sword will foster amongst the Ezekarion. Flashs forwards to what Abaddon will eventually be, surrounded by choirs of daemons, impossible to look at without causing psykers pain.

 

- I get the impression that this is the Abaddon book ADB wanted to write, the fruition of a lot of the stuff he’s said on his blog and in interviews and on the B&C. ToH was the story to get us here, the background setting and the character setup.

This has less… lore, if that’s the right word, than others. Less metaphysics of the warp than ToH, less exploration of the different angles of a single character than Master of Mankind. Khayon has his very Tizcan little lectures to his listerners but it’s more obviously a second book in that it’s more obviously driven by plot and stuff happening. 

Normally that’s not what I’m after but it also felt more ‘mature’, I guess, in its writing? More technically confident, more natural in its flow, less stopping to explain this bit of character background or this aspect of the background.

More writerly tricks, like delving into Khayon semi-possessing other characters (ADB’s definitely done this type of thing before, thinking of the montage in Helsreach), more jumping back and forward in time and how Khayon’s narration is situated, more willingness to leave gaps for the reader to fill in, more confidence that readers have a good handle on the ambiguity of the setting and how different characters can have different perspectives on events that they were both at. It’s good stuff.

 

 

- That little line about Abaddon finally tiring of Cadia and wiping it off the galactic map like excrement off his boot was delightfully arrogant but also felt like something slotted in neatly and perfunctorily later in the writing process to fit with 8th ed. I’m probably wrong, seeing as everything has been in development for so long, but it stood out a little.

 

 

Sandlemad Just several questions:

-are LE was so quick in delivery? Or are you living near the warehouse? (Cause in any other case I can't deduce how did you read it so first on the day of release - while we all 'poor peasants' outside UK would be waiting several weeks for LE delivery or download on the 12th for ebook).

-Morianna is suitably dislikeable - how so?

-War in space- is it good? Or swamped quickly?

[Kelborn]

As it seems, the ebook version is already available via ibooks as far as I've understood it. That's why some are already finished.

 

May I suggest that if you're referring to spoiler information, you're putting your questions, etc. in spoiler tags as well?

 

Can only speak for myself but I haven't read Sandlemads spoilers for reasons. I would be grateful if we can keep those discussions in spoiler tags as the book's not even "really" released by now. Thanks! :) <3

[HeritorA]

As it seems, the ebook version is already available via ibooks as far as I've understood it. That's why some are already finished.

 

May I suggest that if you're referring to spoiler information, you're putting your questions, etc. in spoiler tags as well?

 

Can only speak for myself but I haven't read Sandlemads spoilers for reasons. I would be grateful if we can keep those discussions in spoiler tags as the book's not even "really" released by now. Thanks! <3

 

Sure, I always use spoilers if they are needed. Here there is nothing to cover. That Morianna would be in the novel everyone knew. Bowden said that a long time ago.

 

I'm curious how the :cuss that :cuss up happened  - if 'the ebook version is already available via ibooks', but not from BL.

golly gee is going on with the release and 'extensions' schedule?

[Kelborn]

Just wanted to remind everyone in here before it MIGHT be forgotten. :)

[Vesper]

Just wanted to remind everyone in here before it MIGHT be forgotten.

Indeed. Better safe than sorry.

[Sandlemad]

The ibooks thing is quite the goof on BL's part. Or Apple's? I can't be too mad personally, as I was in a better position to read it this weekend than next. It led to a frustrating hour trying to convert it to an epub before giving up and reading a whole dang novel on my screen.

 

I second the appeal for proper spoiler management but it's worth mentioning that this isn't Praetorian of Dorn or Betrayer, there aren't any huge lore shocks or sudden plot twists that would have reddit contorting in half-understood fury. Most spoilers will probably relate to the 'usual' run of character changes and content of particular scenes, like in any novel. If you're avoiding spoilers, this should be an easier week than after your typical heresy novel.

 

Spoilers:

Morianna is unlikeable because we see her through Khayon's jealous eyes, as a smug mortal who just showed up and is already very close to Abaddon. That's on a personal level but she also talks a lot about Abaddon's fate and destiny, which Khayon hates regardless of whether it comes from Ashur-Kai or Sargon or Morianna.

The space battles are decent. Nothing as good as in the Night Lords trilogy but Ultio and the Vengeful Spirit get a good showing towards the end.

[Karthak]

There's just one thing I need to know. Years ago, ADB posted the following: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297022-the-ragged-knight-spoilers/?do=findComment&comment=3814531

 

"Who are these black-clad, angrier Imperial Fists who are so great at one-on-one duels and why are they beating our heads in? It's like Sigismund's elite warriors became a whole Chapt-- Oh." 

 

"How come the Ultramarines are predicting every move we make and reacting almost as swiftly as we act? Did they finish that book they were writi-- Oh."

 

"Holy Balls, who are these psychic knightly fellows armoured in silver and carrying force halberds who are literally deleting all our summoned daemons?"

 

"Jesus, who are these Blood Angels in black who keep eating our faces and shouting that they're Sanguinius?"

 

"What have all you guys been drinking while we were in the Eye?"

 

Are the Black Templars as kick-ass as was promised?

[1ncarnadine]

Picked up the eBook copy last night and finished it just now. I want to say it's very good, that it's a worthy sequel in what I hope will be a long-running series or at least a sweet trilogy chronicling the genesis of the Black Legion. I want to say how happy I am to see more Death Guard characters, a Fallen Angel, and to see some of the cool Warp Ghosts lore from IA13 expanded upon.

 

But I'm afraid I'm going to have to rate it a 0/10, as it doesn't advance the plot of the Horus Heresy.

[Marshal Rohr]

Just finished it as well. Will post more thoughts later.

[HeritorA]

Picked up the eBook copy last night and finished it just now. I want to say it's very good, that it's a worthy sequel in what I hope will be a long-running series or at least a sweet trilogy chronicling the genesis of the Black Legion. I want to say how happy I am to see more Death Guard characters, a Fallen Angel, and to see some of the cool Warp Ghosts lore from IA13 expanded upon.

 

But I'm afraid I'm going to have to rate it a 0/10, as it doesn't advance the plot of the Horus Heresy.

 

Can't see the good humor in your sarcastic joke. There is a difference between being funny and being a nonchalant bastard.

 

Sandlemad

From what you mentioned it's mostly deal with the 'character/Legion' building. Also it seems I would go to Apple for this one (a lot of people already read it due to ibooks being asynchronised with BL release lol)

[Knockagh]

Ah crap, are the LEs all gone?

Nope they are back on sale today. Someone messed up over the weekend.

[Anthedon]

 

Ah crap, are the LEs all gone?

Nope they are back on sale today. Someone messed up over the weekend.

 

 

Phew, just placed my order. Looks like there are still some left.