Cleanse And Purify Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 I'm more concerned by his focus on his characters eyes. Seriously, think about it: Hyperion has surprisingly youthful eyes, Grimaldus has surprisingly kind eyes, as does Argel Tal, and Talos would have handsome eyes if he weren't a transhuman monster with void-hued pits in place of irises. What's it all mean? Well, if memes on the internet have taught me anything, and I like to think they have, it means that Abaddon has no arms, Star Wars is actually pretty lame, and ADB is probably Pappy McPoyle and will be sending his hat bird for our eyes any moment now... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850801 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 sigh ... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850871 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Like I said, I am glad there are some female characters that are on these tales that have meaning to the plot, but my point stands that there is a pattern that is perceivable. I haven't read your new comic either ADB, but I see big tough brute with armor, and plucky female sidekick and I think, hmm, where have I seen this? But that's my point. That's exactly my point. Those male characters you mentioned 'with female sidekicks' are just males who interact with meaningful female characters. (Really, it should be odd if characters in most books *don't* interact with meaningful female characters - 40K's setting isn't sexist, there'd be women all over the place.) Several of these characters also have male "sidekicks" as well, but that isn't as noticeable. But go down the list: Talos is closer to Septimus (male) than he is to Octavia (female) and far more emotional with Septimus, as well as far more tender at times, and far more violent at others. Khayon barely interacts with Nefertari in the text, but even then she points out he has to grow up and stop relying on her if he wants to stay sane; he despises Moriana who equally despises him; and Ultio barely even knows or cares who he is (and when she develops the capacity to engage emotionally, it's with someone else). Hyperion has more important things to do with Inquisitor Bad Dude than with Inquisitor Jarlsdottyr (who doesn't trust him at all; despite him thinking she did). Argel Tal interacts with Cyrene, a confessor for the Legion, who he's genuinely close with, and he fails her when she needs him most. When he tries to redeem his failure, he damns himself in the process and dies. Sevatar has a brief mention of watching over several humans he thinks might be related to him, one of whom is Taya, whom he barely interacts with - and he spends way more time with the Sin Eater, who is a male human. Khârn and Lotara aren't close in any real context; Khârn's significant interaction is with Argel Tal, but even ignoring Space Marines and focusing on humans again, Khârn is no more or less close to Lotara than any other ranking officer / Primarch's adjutant with the flagship's captain would be. Grimaldus has... Zarha? But he also has dozens of other male and female officers/characters he has a similar relationship with. (Also, since you got me talking and I like to be boring, Zarha was a specific thematic opposite (frail, old, female) to him (male, powerful, etc.) as well as foreshadowing the risks of immersing yourself in war and zeal, risking the loss of self-control.) And these aren't the only female characters, by any means. But, um, the only way to avoid this would be to literally not have females ever talk to the protagonist in any meaningful way. Only men. (And, incidentally, other non-Space Marine male characters already do interact with them, loads.) Every single one of those female characters being listed occupies a vastly different role in the story, with completely different relationships to the protagonists. There are no real similarities beyond the shallowest interpretation. Do most of my books have significant female characters? Yeah, of course. And significant male characters, too. There are women there because there *would* be women there, in the setting. Same reason there are men there. But these women occupy vastly different roles in every story, with vastly different relationships to the protagonist. That's... literally as separate as they can be from one another, yet still engage with the protagonist. Some lie to the protagonist, some are heartfelt, some betray them, some are let down and failed, others are exalted, while others conflict or remained allied throughout. And they do all of that while other male characters are doing the same thing. I don't really know how to make this clearer, since I've explained it in exhaustive detail both here and in the post I linked a few posts back. Right now, you can probably imagine my frustration at having something I've paid special attention to, taken extreme care with, and understand (and have explained) in implicit detail, being explained back to me as "No, you're wrong, there's a pattern, I just have a feeling there's a pattern", if you get me. (Insert Monty Python youmakemesad.gif ) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Does this mean we can talk about the fight now? I was going to wait until official release day. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850908 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Does this mean we can talk about the fight now? I was going to wait until official release day. A few peeps have done so in spoiler tags already, so I think you're probably good to go. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850911 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 I want to avoid dropping all my thoughts at one time so we don't have another 'the Emperor hates the Primarchs and God is Dead and Chaos wins' fiasco like after MoM came out. Some spoilers are too tempting and if I post my personal thoughts I don't want them getting taken as explicitly part of the book again :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sete Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 About the Eternal Crusader, not a Battle Barge anymore? Ive read a few spoilers, but I'll wait until Saturday to take out my ADB doll out of the drawer and fill it full of pins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850950 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Damn, this really drives home to me how much people are used to 40k fiction (at least - if not wider fiction) primarily portraying only significant interactions between male characters. I mean, how is the talking point here that A D-B includes significant female characters alongside his space marines, who unfortunately have to be exclusively male. I mean, of course he does?! How is the talking point here not why the hell are we so used to male dominated casts that having significant female characters in 40k novels seems somehow unusual? This should be. Every. Single. Novel. Let alone novels with female-focused casts, to counteract the endless focus on men having the setting's major factions be male-exclusive produces. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluntblade Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 While we're on female characters who aren't stereotypical, I'd like to see more of John French's Morn at some stage. There's plenty of this throughout BL anyway. The White Scars series obviously has Ilya, Battle of the Fang had the female Kaerl whose name escapes me, and we have female crew members all over the shop. Viz the MoM fiasco, I seem to recall editing a counter argument onto a particular site, and finding it disappeared shortly after. It all got a bit silly. And finally back on topic, I guess I'm getting Black Legion this weekend, then. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850985 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 About the Eternal Crusader, not a Battle Barge anymore? Ive read a few spoilers, but I'll wait until Saturday to take out my ADB doll out of the drawer and fill it full of pins. She's a Gloriana. Ultio actually calls her Sister. It's so cool it gave me goosebumps Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4850992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calas Typhon Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Damn, this really drives home to me how much people are used to 40k fiction (at least - if not wider fiction) primarily portraying only significant interactions between male characters. I mean, how is the talking point here that A D-B includes significant female characters alongside his space marines, who unfortunately have to be exclusively male. I mean, of course he does?! How is the talking point here not why the hell are we so used to male dominated casts that having significant female characters in 40k novels seems somehow unusual? This should be. Every. Single. Novel. Let alone novels with female-focused casts, to counteract the endless focus on men having the setting's major factions be male-exclusive produces. We were simply pointing out something we observed. It was clear to us that there was a pattern with what we saw as outcasts within a legion who all had a female related to them. I am not going to get into a debate about more women filling up books, because to be quite honest, I don't really see why it matters and i don't really care. I was simply asking originally if there was a pattern ADB realised. Because its what I saw. For the better, I would strongly recommend its dropped now, I wont be adding anymore to the topic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851004 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 9, 2017 Share Posted August 9, 2017 Dan Abnett fleshed out some strong female characters in some of his novels such as Eisenhorn. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Thanks for the explanation, Extropian. Also...Sig was as old as Dante? I suppose Dante ages far better because of BA geneseed Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Edit: is like to note that this is more in response to IHF than ADB. Sorry my short attention span got the better of me and didn't let me distinguish.Le sigh. You were putting words into our mouths saying threat we are being chauvinistic pigs because we don't like women in power blah blah ad nauseum...which is not the case at all. I could care less if the entire cast is entirely female and goes on to beat all the males they see at everything they do. Hell, throw in a couple trans fluid fox kin in there.My point was that your writing (now I've tried to be tactful but that evidently doesn't work) has become somewhat formulaic. Call me a or whatever you'd like, and I'd even agree that I'm being myopic to the overall role that these characters have.It would be like if after Graham McNeill finished writing about Ventanus, and then wrote a book about a Raven Guard who doesn't like to follow the code of stealth masters, or a white scar that wants to leg it everywhere, and gets effectively excommunicated by the chapter to some warp hellhole But I've said my peace, but please don't put words in my mouth and say that I'm not a fan of female characters. That's only making you look silly.As for Sigismund: I was a little disappointed that Khayon wasn't there to retell the entire story, but I understand why a detached viewpoint was taken. Killing a legend such as Siggy would be surreal and could only be told as the ending of saga. Going from the viewpoint of the killer in the moment would almost rob the death of its importance.Also, RIP delvarus :/ whomever killed him will have Lotarra Sarrin to worry about that was her kill to take hahaI'm curious if Drach'nyen will still have the blood of the emperor on it in some form or another. The vitae of two primarchs and the emperor on the Talon of Horus drive psykers absolutely bananas. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851116 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Honestly, I understand the criticism about formulaic books, but I think it might be a shallow criticism. Note, not saying depthcharge is shallow but the criticism makes sense only if you evaluate the novels at the surface level. I.e. yes, it's typically about fiveish Astartes, with the main protagonist being relatively introspective, etc. However, analyzing any novel with that broad of a brush will lead to similarities abounding because you're talking about works in the same genre written by the same author in the same fictional universe. It's like saying "man George RR Martin, you sure write about social outcasts and fat guys a lot," or "gee, HP Lovecraft, sure are a lot of rationally-minded academic New Englanders in your work." The characters and plots throughout the various novels are sufficiently different so as to be interesting without descending into reuse of tropes. Consider, for example, Grimaldus and Hyperion, both Imperial Astartes in the 41st millennium. Grimaldus' arc revolves around him growing into and accepting his role as a commander and leader within his chapter, and overcoming his own prideful desire to fight in the more "glorious" war alongside side his brothers as opposed to leading the defense of a mortal settlement. He grows to respect mortals, and other cousin lineages of Astartes, slightly more along the way, and embraces his new status as a military and religious leader among his brethren. Hyperion, on the other hand, is a much more junior Astartes, and his story is more about adapting to life as a Grey Knight and the unique challenges, both physical and moral, it presents. In the end, Hyperion loses nearly all his brothers and accepts a position that essentially isolates him from them. Grimaldus also loses all his brethren but emerges from the experience a tempered Chaplain, resolved to continue as a leader in his chapter. Hyperion, However, seems a bit more damaged (inasmuch as Astartes can be damaged) by his experience and so accepts a position that isolates him on Titan away from his former responsibilities. As a briefer example: Talos is an idealist regarding his Legion's philosophy and character, but a fatalist regarding himself. Khârn is wholly resigned to his legion's fate and character but tries to curb his primarchs excesses. They have entirely different foci and philosophies. Talos, depending on who you talk to, deluded himself as to the true nature of his father and his legion. Khârn does nothing of the sort, and seems far better adjusted, for lack of a better word. Which is ultimately a cosmic irony, as Khârn eventually loses his mind and becomes slave to an uncaring god (whereas Talos explicitly rejects the influence and power of the Ruinous Powers) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scribe Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Amazing you have accrued 7759 posts without me seeing posts of such quality before to notify of the lists you need to be on. An error quickly corrected. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I thought my post was good :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Something got nukified. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851181 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cleanse And Purify Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I know, twas a bad joke on my part Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851182 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Thanks for the explanation, Extropian. Also...Sig was as old as Dante? I suppose Dante ages far better because of BA geneseed Probably not comparable since Sigismund was created through the original process, and Dante was the hypnoconditioned style. Sigismund isn't *old* in the traditional sense as in he can't swing as hard or his back throws out. It took a thousand years for the First Captain of the best legion, after an eternity of training in Hell, to best Sigismund. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851192 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 I liked the book. Interesting take on the innards of the Legion. You see how it's an organization that fosters unity of purpose and fraternal bonding between soldiers, but also callousness shown in the willingness for the high command to throw away lives. Also gives a great explanation of the 1st Black Crusade with the Black Legion being basically crippled after their first battle due to Daravak. Sigismund was very good in his brief moments, he totally shut down Abaddon's veneer of morality on rebelling against the Imperium during their conversation, showing Abaddon's naked hunger for power as his only motivating force. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Hands Fanatic Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Edit: is like to note that this is more in response to IHF than ADB. Sorry my short attention span got the better of me and didn't let me distinguish. Le sigh. You were putting words into our mouths saying threat we are being chauvinistic pigs because we don't like women in power blah blah ad nauseum...which is not the case at all. I could care less if the entire cast is entirely female and goes on to beat all the males they see at everything they do. Hell, throw in a couple trans fluid fox kin in there. My point was that your writing (now I've tried to be tactful but that evidently doesn't work) has become somewhat formulaic. Call me a :cuss or whatever you'd like, and I'd even agree that I'm being myopic to the overall role that these characters have. It would be like if after Graham McNeill finished writing about Ventanus, and then wrote a book about a Raven Guard who doesn't like to follow the code of stealth masters, or a white scar that wants to leg it everywhere, and gets effectively excommunicated by the chapter to some warp hellhole :P But I've said my peace, but please don't put words in my mouth and say that I'm not a fan of female characters. That's only making you look silly. As for Sigismund: I was a little disappointed that Khayon wasn't there to retell the entire story, but I understand why a detached viewpoint was taken. Killing a legend such as Siggy would be surreal and could only be told as the ending of saga. Going from the viewpoint of the killer in the moment would almost rob the death of its importance. Also, RIP delvarus :/ whomever killed him will have Lotarra Sarrin to worry about :P that was her kill to take haha I'm curious if Drach'nyen will still have the blood of the emperor on it in some form or another. The vitae of two primarchs and the emperor on the Talon of Horus drive psykers absolutely bananas. Okay, let's chill out for a second - at no point have I made any assertions about members' opinions towards women, my issue was with the idea that this series of characters being female was somehow unusual with regards to setting / other BL fiction. Using 'normal' human characters who interact with Astartes as a lense to view them from a more relatable / human angle is a pretty common technique across BL fiction. They have varying degrees of importance / closeness to said Astartes, and have differing impacts on their character arcs, but they help ground our perspective on space marines. The characters being remarked upon all fill this loose purpose, obviously with myriad other roles in A D-B's books, so their roles aren't unusual. My issue isn't that you've identified a trend of character types, it's that the 40k setting has been so poorly populated with women across it's fiction that because A D-B does give these roles to female characters, them being women can actually be regarded as a hallmark of his writing. So I don't really see how I've been putting words into your mouth. As an aside, I totally agree with you on seeing trans characters in BL fiction, although I think its a long way off before we see trans / non-binary folk in BL books - I think its probably better that any trans characters are approached pretty carefully, considering some unpleasant associations made in older lore between Slannesh & them / queer folk in general. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851223 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dagoth Ur Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Can't we just please finally drop this Off-topic argument :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851226 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninja6fett Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Thanks for the explanation, Extropian. Also...Sig was as old as Dante? I suppose Dante ages far better because of BA geneseed Probably not comparable since Sigismund was created through the original process, and Dante was the hypnoconditioned style. Sigismund isn't *old* in the traditional sense as in he can't swing as hard or his back throws out. It took a thousand years for the First Captain of the best legion, after an eternity of training in Hell, to best Sigismund. I don't think it was meant that way. Sigismund truly had slowed down. Everything about the fight screamed that while still incredibly deadly, Sigismund had been slowed by time. Khayon specifically refers to a later conversation with Abbadon where Abby points out that at the age of 1100ish, Sigismund may have slowed down, but only to the point where other master swordsmen had a chance. The implication being that Sigismund in his prime was unstoppable, and Abbadon would have been toast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851228 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian_F_H Posted August 10, 2017 Share Posted August 10, 2017 Thanks for the explanation, Extropian. Also...Sig was as old as Dante? I suppose Dante ages far better because of BA geneseed Probably not comparable since Sigismund was created through the original process, and Dante was the hypnoconditioned style. Sigismund isn't *old* in the traditional sense as in he can't swing as hard or his back throws out. It took a thousand years for the First Captain of the best legion, after an eternity of training in Hell, to best Sigismund. I don't think it was meant that way. Sigismund truly had slowed down. Everything about the fight screamed that while still incredibly deadly, Sigismund had been slowed by time. Khayon specifically refers to a later conversation with Abbadon where Abby points out that at the age of 1100ish, Sigismund may have slowed down, but only to the point where other master swordsmen had a chance. The implication being that Sigismund in his prime was unstoppable, and Abbadon would have been toast. seams to me it was a bit of an "all of the above" sort of thing. The real debate being what was the greatest contributing factor I suppose But I'm just going off of this conversation... I look forward to reading it myself. Are there any particular books best read first? (besides everything, lol, time is a scarce commodity) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/338425-the-black-legion/page/41/#findComment-4851234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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